He's contracted on big money (500k-600k) until the end of 2016. If we trade him and another club pays less than what we do, we have to make up the difference until his contract with us is up.

Eg we're paying him 550k until the end of 2016. If we trade him to Brisbane who pay him 250k we will have 300k of his contract with us on our books in 2015.

What's Dawes' value on the open market? I'm thinking pick 40ish.

That's what it was when we gave away a top 20 pick for him...now he has absolutely no currency on the trade market at all.

Play him at Casey next season as a backup until his contract runs out then delist, if he doesn't like this negotiate a pay out figure with him.

That's what it was when we gave away a top 20 pick for him...now he has absolutely no currency on the trade market at all.

Play him at Casey next season as a backup until his contract runs out then delist, if he doesn't like this negotiate a pay out figure with him.

Let's just try and move him to the Lions. Leppitsch said they're crying out for a key forward and given where they're at he might look like a bargain to them

Let's just try and move him to the Lions. Leppitsch said they're crying out for a key forward and given where they're at he might look like a bargain to them

I don't think they're that stupid...and he's just not a key forward anyway.

...then again we could always hope.

He's contracted on big money (500k-600k) until the end of 2016. If we trade him and another club pays less than what we do, we have to make up the difference until his contract with us is up.

Eg we're paying him 550k until the end of 2016. If we trade him to Brisbane who pay him 250k we will have 300k of his contract with us on our books in 2015.

What's Dawes' value on the open market? I'm thinking pick 40ish.

Get it done

If supporters don't believe that underperforming senior players with questionable skill-level, fitness and general intent when playing isn't a significant contributing factor in performances like today, last week and many other weeks this year, you need to wake up a bit. Seriously.

Club's don't continue to display these kinds of insipid and skill-less games for years upon years without there being some seriously deeply rooted problems with some senior figures at that club.

Correct. This is why the Doggies and St Kilda have bounced back after a couple of years of bottoming out - they still have a nucleus of experienced players who have played finals footy.

We are starting from a point way back from these clubs - effectively the same as GWS and GC but without the massive concessions.

IMO the only option is to bring in players like Daniel Cross, who I think has been our best pick up overall, to nurture our potentially great young guns in the right way to go about their footy.

Correct. This is why the Doggies and St Kilda have bounced back after a couple of years of bottoming out - they still have a nucleus of experienced players who have played finals footy.

We are starting from a point way back from these clubs - effectively the same as GWS and GC but without the massive concessions.

IMO the only option is to bring in players like Daniel Cross, who I think has been our best pick up overall, to nurture our potentially great young guns in the right way to go about their footy.

These posts make me sick. 8 years at the bottom and we are still behind? Seriously??

Think Roos/Goodwin need to trade some under performing senior players who are now becoming liabilities enough is enough!!!

These posts make me sick. 8 years at the bottom and we are still behind? Seriously??

Yes - because after the first year or so, we got rid of the likes of Bruce and MacDonald. Even if they only had a year or two left, they would still have been around to mentor the young guys.

Then we tanked for a year or two to get the top draft picks, which the hierarchy believed would be the making of our club.

Then we appointed two kids as captains and expected them to create a new culture under Neeld.

All this, whilst the new expansion clubs - GWS especially - have had an obscene amount of trade and cap concessions. At the same time, the off-field administration had been run by an apparently self-serving dummkopf, a number one draft pick has [censored] off to the AFL's pet project and we have been rogered with a $ half a mill fine for the aforementioned tanking.

I don't know what the answer is, but I can't fathom how we can tear Geelong a new one at their place and then not have the momentum or will to hand a hiding to the Bombers and avenge the previous Saints defeat.

These posts make me sick. 8 years at the bottom and we are still behind? Seriously??

Unfortunately we were so poorly managed we now have to look at our rebuild as being over the last couple of years.

I'm not forgiving this, in fact I am absolutely p....that we wasted so much time with a board and management that were so inept that we are still in this position. I am prepared to give the current management of the club some slack because of what they inherited.

Unfortunately we were so poorly managed we now have to look at our rebuild as being over the last couple of years.

I'm not forgiving this, in fact I am absolutely p....that we wasted so much time with a board and management that were so inept that we are still in this position. I am prepared to give the current management of the club some slack because of what they inherited.

You mean there is a choice rjay?

These posts make me sick. 8 years at the bottom and we are still behind? Seriously??

Have a look at the Saints best players on Sunday vs ours.

Riewoldt, Gilbert, Dempster and Schneider are seasoned campaigners and even Roberton is mid 20's. Their experienced players led the way in the wet.

Viney and Gawn were by far our best yesterday.

We were beaten by a better team, no doubt. Saints did everything better than us yesterday and I was very impressed by their tackling pressure and contested ball, and their blueprint looks good. They consistently broke our tackles, and their tackles stuck. They also had all but one player get at least 10 disposals (not including the sub), we had four. Michie came on and got 9 in limited time. Stretch needs a spell, and Vandenberg looks to be struggling now as well.

However, Saints fans are still looking at that team and wondering how long it will take before the young blokes are the ones that step up in these sorts of games. Riewoldt, Gilbert, Dempster and Schneider are not the future for the Saints.

Our recruiters need to continue to build the team, next on the list has to be a player that can use the ball well. Getting Salem back will help, as will Petracca next year, but we still have too many sloppy kicks on the team.

Have a look at the Saints best players on Sunday vs ours.

Riewoldt, Gilbert, Dempster and Schneider are seasoned campaigners and even Roberton is mid 20's. Their experienced players led the way in the wet.

Riewoldt is a super player, we all know that. But Roberton, Dempster and Schneider are experienced players that cost St Kilda very little to bring in. That's not to mention Bruce who was quiet yesterday, but has had a great year. Why do we pay massively over the odds for players like Dawes and Lumumba who give nothing, when there are so many decent players available if you look hard enough?

It is highly debatable that our young players are better than St Kilda's. Hogan and Brayshaw probably are, but I would be happy with any of McCartin, Billings, Dunstan, and Goddard over the rest of our list.

Correct. This is why the Doggies and St Kilda have bounced back after a couple of years of bottoming out - they still have a nucleus of experienced players who have played finals footy.

We are starting from a point way back from these clubs - effectively the same as GWS and GC but without the massive concessions.

IMO the only option is to bring in players like Daniel Cross, who I think has been our best pick up overall, to nurture our potentially great young guns in the right way to go about their footy.

This and also that they've clearly done very well at the draft. They've nailed some quality picks. It's a combination though.

The issues at our club are so deeply-rooted it's hard to spit them all out in a paragraph or two but ever since 07, different facets of the club have failed. When those failings, (list management and many off-field problems) were addressed, it was a failure again. Enter mark Neeld era, another failure.

What we see are, (for lack of a better word) intergenerational list issues. And there is not one or two or three. There are many.

This is the reason we as supporters are subject to this chaotic mess on the weekends. Whether it be full games, quarters, halves or passages of play. The effects of the past are still there to see on game day.

The only way I see us overcoming these problems is by continuing to recruit the right personalities to the club and to move on problematic players who are for the most part the perpetrators. The players who have been 'Melbourne-ised'. Once we have a core group of players who share a similar playing philosophy and professional attitude, only then will we start to see more sustained success.

Brayshaw and Viney. Players who's instincts are to tackle, chase, block and do anything in their power to win the ball. Let's call it the 'Brayshaw instinct'. A non-negotiable quality that we need to see more of. When you don't have senior figures who display these non-negotiables every time they play, your list is already in trouble. That is one of so many problems that young players who do not possess that 'Brayshaw instinct' at our club have been subject to over the years which means it doesn't become a club standard or it doesn't become a theme.

St Kilda yesterday exemplified what I am saying. The influence Lenny Hayes and Nick Riewoldt alone would have on any young player who walks through that door at that club would so far surpass any young player at our club it's not funny. Especially if that player doesn't posses the 'Brayshaw instinct'. Players who need to know what the standard is. What is required before they get a game.

When I look at Garland, Jamar, Dunn, Watts, Howe, Frawley, Sylvia and so many other players who were part of that senior and more experienced group that were at our club not long ago, absolutely none of them display that 'Brayshaw instinct' consistently. None of them. And none of them had the right people to hold them accountable. So we see the effects now.

It means we've had to bring in players like Cross and Dawes. Players who do display those instincts but are less-skilled and have been let go of their previous clubs because their previous clubs have had a plethora of senior figures who display those instincts and they can afford to release those players as part of list management.

Whilst our younger players have without doubt benefitted from having players like Cross and Dawes over players like Sylvia and Frawley to look up to, our game has suffered because of the skill level of these players. Again, another one of many problems our club is facing.

I won't continue to go on about other examples but to me it's pretty simple. There has to be an overhaul and another two seasons of list culling of current senior players, fringe players and NQR's until we begin to see a young and committed core group of players emerge who possess that 'Brayshaw instinct' in spades and who hopefully have the fundamental football skills to match. Trading for positional players and hitting FA will obviously help but it's recruiting those kids who will be the leaders of our club that we need to nail. When those players become the core group at our club and eventually the next leaders, that's when we'll see a period of sustained success on-field. (Providing everything off-field continues to hold up).

Edited July 27, 20159 yr by stevethemanjordan

It means we've had to bring in players like Cross and Dawes. Players who do display those instincts but are less-skilled and have been let go of their previous clubs because their previous clubs have had a plethora of senior figures who display those instincts and they can afford to release those players as part of list management.

Whilst our younger players have without doubt benefitted from having players like Cross and Dawes over players like Sylvia and Frawley to look up to, by the same token our game has suffered because of the skill level of these players. Again, another one of many problems our club is facing.

I

Agree with a lot of what you say but this was a big mistake. The Pies laughed all the way to the bank on this trade...

Cross and Vince are the ones that have had a big impact...

Agree with a lot of what you say but this was a big mistake. The Pies laughed all the way to the bank on this trade...

Cross and Vince are the ones that have had a big impact...

I disagree that it was a mistake because at the time it was clearly necessary.

Neeld, (for everything he did wrong) rightly saw the complete lack of professional leaders at our club. Players who had a natural willingness to compete for example.

I understand Dawes is way underperforming, his form has been horrible this year and his skills have always been questionable, but his addition to our club at that time was again the result of a failed previous coaching tenure and ability to address serious problems with our list. One being the lack of professional senior figures at our club.

Dawes is much less of a failure than Rodan and Byrnes.

But yes, what we are seeing now with him is again just intergenerational list problems.

Edited July 27, 20159 yr by stevethemanjordan

I disagree that it was a mistake because at the time it was clearly necessary.

Neeld, (for everything he did wrong) rightly saw the complete lack of professional leaders at our club. Players who had a natural willingness to compete for example.

I understand Dawes is way underperforming, his form has been horrible this year and his skills have always been questionable, but his addition to our club at that time was again the result of a failed previous coaching tenure and ability to address serious problems with our list. One being the lack of professional senior figures at our club.

Dawes is much less of a failure than Rodan and Byrnes.

But yes, what we are seeing now with him is again just intergenerational list problems.

We certainly needed good senior players in the club, agree with you totally on that. Probably not many options open to us but couldn't put him in the plus category.

Riewoldt is a super player, we all know that. But Roberton, Dempster and Schneider are experienced players that cost St Kilda very little to bring in. That's not to mention Bruce who was quiet yesterday, but has had a great year. Why do we pay massively over the odds for players like Dawes and Lumumba who give nothing, when there are so many decent players available if you look hard enough?

It is highly debatable that our young players are better than St Kilda's. Hogan and Brayshaw probably are, but I would be happy with any of McCartin, Billings, Dunstan, and Goddard over the rest of our list.

Fair point on the recruiting of senior players.

Not saying the Sainters young blokes aren't good, just that they weren't the ones that drove the victory yesterday. The youngsters are comparable and only time will tell whether Salem, Petracca, ANB and Omac (+Brayshaw & Hogan who played Sunday).

Jake Niall wrote an article about this on the Age over the weekend:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/melbourne-demons-better-placed-for-future-title-run-than-st-kilda-saints-20150725-gikghj.html

I disagree that it was a mistake because at the time it was clearly necessary.

Neeld, (for everything he did wrong) rightly saw the complete lack of professional leaders at our club. Players who had a natural willingness to compete for example.

I understand Dawes is way underperforming, his form has been horrible this year and his skills have always been questionable, but his addition to our club at that time was again the result of a failed previous coaching tenure and ability to address serious problems with our list. One being the lack of professional senior figures at our club.

Dawes is much less of a failure than Rodan and Byrnes.

But yes, what we are seeing now with him is again just intergenerational list problems.

understand that, but dawes was brought in as a marquee player on top dollar. rodan and byrnes were always just steak knives.

understand that, but dawes was brought in as a marquee player on top dollar. rodan and byrnes were always just steak knives.

Spot on dc

love your dawes with lower case d

appropriate

Spoke to one of the top Player Manager's over the weekend and he told me that providing Darcy Parish looks like being available, our first pick in the draft will not be going anywhere this year. The Dees are in love with Parish who is exactly what we need as a pacy outside midfielder, and this Agent was really bullish that with Salem, Petracca and Parish to come into the side that already includes Brayshaw, Hogan and Viney, we have a lot to look forward to.

So it would be up to Free Agency and/or Pick 22 & Howe to try and land an established midfielder.

Fair point on the recruiting of senior players.

Not saying the Sainters young blokes aren't good, just that they weren't the ones that drove the victory yesterday. The youngsters are comparable and only time will tell whether Salem, Petracca, ANB and Omac (+Brayshaw & Hogan who played Sunday).

Jake Niall wrote an article about this on the Age over the weekend:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/melbourne-demons-better-placed-for-future-title-run-than-st-kilda-saints-20150725-gikghj.html

I think it's important that we make sure potential recruits and their managers (1) read the Jake Niall article and (2) are prevented from watching yesterday's game.

As we continually butchered the ball yesterday (and last week, and the week before that) Parish was the player that came to mind as our number 1 preference/need in the draft.

Milera should be the other one if Parish is gone (although pick 6ish will be regarded as too high, late first rounder the mark for him).

I disagree that it was a mistake because at the time it was clearly necessary.

Neeld, (for everything he did wrong) rightly saw the complete lack of professional leaders at our club. Players who had a natural willingness to compete for example.

I understand Dawes is way underperforming, his form has been horrible this year and his skills have always been questionable, but his addition to our club at that time was again the result of a failed previous coaching tenure and ability to address serious problems with our list. 1)One being the lack of professional senior figures at our club.

2)Dawes is much less of a failure than Rodan and Byrnes.

But yes, what we are seeing now with him is again just intergenerational list problems.

1) Lets face it he came to us because he was a mate of Neeld and Leigh Brown!

2) That he is 'much less a failure than Rodan and Byrnes' makes him a seriously, seriously bad recruit. Right up there with some of ourdisastrous high draft picks. What is more those guys did not cost pick #20, get a 4 year contract at 500k+ per annum!

Dawes does not deserve to be on our list.

On a value for money basis he should be the first to go, contract or no.

Spoke to one of the top Player Manager's over the weekend and he told me that providing Darcy Parish looks like being available, our first pick in the draft will not be going anywhere this year. The Dees are in love with Parish who is exactly what we need as a pacy outside midfielder, and this Agent was really bullish that with Salem, Petracca and Parish to come into the side that already includes Brayshaw, Hogan and Viney, we have a lot to look forward to.

So it would be up to Free Agency and/or Pick 22 & Howe to try and land an established midfielder.

You could be on the money there WJD, but sometimes these situations change quickly in trade week. If an A grade mid from another club (eg Treloar, Prestia, Danger) was available and prepared to come here, our first pick would more than likely be in the mix. If the other team insisted in our first pick, would we say no? Doubt it.

These posts make me sick. 8 years at the bottom and we are still behind? Seriously??

Yes, the problem is driven by off field issues.

this started when we sacked a coach who was doing ok (Norm smith or the rev, take your pick), only to then sack his replacement, who was also doing OK. We had a management team in place that bought in tanking, could make money to save themselves, was very much stuck in a boys club mode where everything will be OK in the end, and they ran us into the ground. They also oversaw the sacking of all our experienced players, including our captain. Something we rue to this day as what we have clearly lacked is experience guiding the players, St Kilda have it, the dogs have it, and look at how they are going! Going with youth is only good to a point, you need the wise heads around. Look at the difference between GC and GWS for more evidence. Our players lack knowledge of what is required and have had their confidence smashed as a result. Add to this a development team that has to be the worst in AFL history, and a recruiting department who were OK, but not great, and made to look worse by appalling development and things go from bad to worse.

Then Jimmy came in a cleared the debt (only to go into debt sacking more people) but he was still bound by the boys club, but to a lesser degree than others. Then the board made their worst mistake, hiring Neeld. Neeld may well have actually been an OK coach, he was not good at reading a groups of players and managing them, he lost them before he coached his first game, and if not then then he certainly did after it. The less said about this period the better, suffice to say we continued going backwards from when the rev was sacked.

Then came the sacking of Neeld, to me this is the beginning of the resurrection. From around this point we have a CEO in place who knows what he is doing, we have a recruiting team in place who are doing a great job, we have a development team in place who so far seem to be doing very well with the likes of Brayshaw, Salem, Watts (the fact he needs development is an indictment of how bad the previous development team were), and others, we have a coaching panel in place that is stable (although many on here seem to be thinking Roos should go, massive mistake purely due tot he instability it would create) with the players knowing who is coaching for the next 4.5 years.

Yes we are bad, but we are getting better, we are just coming from miles back due to the reasons listed above. The biggest of which was removing the experienced players, not only have we missed the experience but we have had to use draft picks and trades to bring other experience back in to the team!

How about for once in this clubs history we actually stick out a plan to the end instead of jumping off half way because it doesn't look good, and then having to start all over again!