People often talk about how stats can be meaningless and I think this is one of these instances. There is much more Nic Nat does that isn't captured by your run of the mill 'disposals, hit-outs, marks' etc statistics. Perhaps our opinions differ, which is fine, discussion is what a footy forum is for. But after watching most West Coast games this year I can comfortably say that Nic Nat is the 2nd best ruck in the comp behind only Goldstein. He is elite at what he does.

You've dismissed my view on the basis that stats are meaningless and you've watched many Eagles matches, but provide nothing real to support your view that NicNat is now elite. If he doesn't much mark the ball (avg 1.27) despite being 201cm and having a great leap, if he doesn't get many possessions (disp avg 12), what does he do that makes him elite? He gets nearly 4 tackles per game, which is reasonable but not great. I acknowledge his tap work is very good and much of his 1%ers are also very good. He also has excellent speed and a fabulous highlight reel. But being a very good tap ruck who runs around a lot doing 1%ers does not make him elite. He might become elite, but IMO he is not currently elite .

Let's talk stats, shall we?

So Patrick Dangerfield averages early 20s for disposals for the last three years and averages one goal a game.

Dion Prestia averages late 20s for the past three years.

Who would you prefer?

Sorry, the article on the AFL website 'Is Patrick Dangerfield worth the hype' got me thinking.

Let's talk stats, shall we?

So Patrick Dangerfield averages early 20s for disposals for the last three years and averages one goal a game.

Dion Prestia averages late 20s for the past three years.

Who would you prefer?

Sorry, the article on the AFL website 'Is Patrick Dangerfield worth the hype' got me thinking.

Foregone conclusion, Dion is ours.

Edit: I hope.

Edited July 22, 201510 yr by Django

You've dismissed my view on the basis that stats are meaningless and you've watched many Eagles matches, but provide nothing real to support your view that NicNat is now elite. If he doesn't much mark the ball (avg 1.27) despite being 201cm and having a great leap, if he doesn't get many possessions (disp avg 12), what does he do that makes him elite? He gets nearly 4 tackles per game, which is reasonable but not great. I acknowledge his tap work is very good and much of his 1%ers are also very good. He also has excellent speed and a fabulous highlight reel. But being a very good tap ruck who runs around a lot doing 1%ers does not make him elite. He might become elite, but IMO he is not currently elite .

Nic Nat is a ruckman. It is his ruck work which makes him elite. His work in and around the stoppages, fulfilling his primary role which is to ensure his team wins as many stoppages and centre clearances as possible. Apart from his obviously great tap work, his contested ball winning ability and follow up work are enormous here. My opinion is that stats don't really tell the whole story. The impact Nic has and his ability to beat the opposition ruckman almost every week can not be easily shown without watching him play. He makes quality players look average, which I'm sure is a great contributing factor to West Coast's success this year. Additionally, Nic Nat is not the sole ruck at West Coast, which makes his stats so much more impressive. He can only win the ruck contests he is involved in.

Jeremy howe for adam tommlinson??

Purely speculation but id be on board

Is this thread about delisting Gawn or trading in NicNat? I'm confused.

Edited July 22, 201510 yr by Skuit

Jeremy howe for adam tommlinson??

Purely speculation but id be on board

I think we'd all be on board with that

Jeremy howe for adam tommlinson??

Purely speculation but id be on board

Isn't he good mates with Dom Tyson?

Isn't he good mates with Dom Tyson?

Best mates since they were kids. He re-signed with the Giants last year though.

Nic Nat is a ruckman. It is his ruck work which makes him elite. His work in and around the stoppages, fulfilling his primary role which is to ensure his team wins as many stoppages and centre clearances as possible. Apart from his obviously great tap work, his contested ball winning ability and follow up work are enormous here. My opinion is that stats don't really tell the whole story. The impact Nic has and his ability to beat the opposition ruckman almost every week can not be easily shown without watching him play. He makes quality players look average, which I'm sure is a great contributing factor to West Coast's success this year. Additionally, Nic Nat is not the sole ruck at West Coast, which makes his stats so much more impressive. He can only win the ruck contests he is involved in.

You're welcome to believe that NicNat is "elite", M C, but nobody else is buying it.

I like NicNat, he's great for the game, but rather than a show-pony, he's a one-trick pony, though it's a damn good trick.

It works best at centre bounces, and it's not as effective at ball-ups and throw-ins.

But his weaknesses are really bad. HIs endurance is poor so he's less effective as the game goes on, his defensive game is just non-existent, and he spectates a lot if he's not sure he can get the ball.

He has been very well coached, and it's kept as simple as possible for him - "just leap to here, and then tap it here, here or here". He is surrounded by a great group of mids who corral him really well against any third-man-up attempts, and who know exactly where he's tapping it to.

He's a great athlete and has been brilliantly utilised, but he's not elite. Sooner or later one of the top sides will work out how to blunt his effectiveness, and it will be back to the drawing board.

On the good stuff tonight eh fence.

Sarcasm is lost obviously lost on you.

We have a prize for you, it's a big wooden penis.

So you can type penis but not [censored] (d!ck)!

Edit : Any future references to Dick Tracy will be altered to Penis Tracy.

Edited July 22, 201510 yr by ManDee

You're welcome to believe that NicNat is "elite", M C, but nobody else is buying it.

I like NicNat, he's great for the game, but rather than a show-pony, he's a one-trick pony, though it's a damn good trick.

It works best at centre bounces, and it's not as effective at ball-ups and throw-ins.

But his weaknesses are really bad. HIs endurance is poor so he's less effective as the game goes on, his defensive game is just non-existent, and he spectates a lot if he's not sure he can get the ball.

He has been very well coached, and it's kept as simple as possible for him - "just leap to here, and then tap it here, here or here". He is surrounded by a great group of mids who corral him really well against any third-man-up attempts, and who know exactly where he's tapping it to.

He's a great athlete and has been brilliantly utilised, but he's not elite. Sooner or later one of the top sides will work out how to blunt his effectiveness, and it will be back to the drawing board.

I couldn't disagree more on this. Nic Nat's chasing, tackling and smothering is first rate. As is his follow up work around clearances. He just struggles to find the ball in general play. But, IMO, he is still a star because there are nearly 80 clearances per game.

I also don't think West Coast's midfield is that strong and, indeed, he is the one making them look good.

I'd be extremely disappointed if Garland was to leave this club.

Quality player. Quality individual. Quality clubman.

Sign him up.

Agree.

And would be disappointing if we lost both Howe and Garland in the one off season.

Could live with losing one due to the potential compensation in return but not both.

Edited July 22, 201510 yr by Bring-Back-Powell

Could losing both Howe and Garland give us a pick after our first rounder in return?

I can't remember if compensation stacks or if we would just get 2 2nd rounders?

Edited July 22, 201510 yr by olisik

Could losing both Howe and Garland give us a pick after our first rounder in return?

I can't remember if compensation stacks or if we would just get 2 2nd rounders?

Not directly. Only Garland is a Free agent.

Jeremy howe for adam tommlinson??

Purely speculation but id be on board

Yes please.

Nik Nat destroyed us with 5 kicks and 4 handballs! Wow, they must have been classy possessions.

Its not about the stats. He gave them first use of the footy all game, with a midfield good enough to read him. He was immense.

Nic Nat is a ruckman. It is his ruck work which makes him elite. His work in and around the stoppages, fulfilling his primary role which is to ensure his team wins as many stoppages and centre clearances as possible. Apart from his obviously great tap work, his contested ball winning ability and follow up work are enormous here. My opinion is that stats don't really tell the whole story. The impact Nic has and his ability to beat the opposition ruckman almost every week can not be easily shown without watching him play. He makes quality players look average, which I'm sure is a great contributing factor to West Coast's success this year. Additionally, Nic Nat is not the sole ruck at West Coast, which makes his stats so much more impressive. He can only win the ruck contests he is involved in.

Ok thanks MC. I agree that NicNat is a great tap ruck who runs around a lot doing 1%ers (well... avg 2.7per game) but will have to agree to disagree that he is currently elite. I understand that you hold little value for stats, but nevertheless as an example, Dean Cox when he was elite was averaging around 22 disp and 6-7 marks and his goal assists were right up there. He also wasn't the sole ruck. I have watched WCE mostly on TV this year and found NN, as the main ruck, to be excellent at taping to advantage and following up, but he drifts in and out of games easily, providing a number highlights that the media salivate over. He's good, but not yet elite.

You're welcome to believe that NicNat is "elite", M C, but nobody else is buying it.

I like NicNat, he's great for the game, but rather than a show-pony, he's a one-trick pony, though it's a damn good trick.

It works best at centre bounces, and it's not as effective at ball-ups and throw-ins.

But his weaknesses are really bad. HIs endurance is poor so he's less effective as the game goes on, his defensive game is just non-existent, and he spectates a lot if he's not sure he can get the ball.

He has been very well coached, and it's kept as simple as possible for him - "just leap to here, and then tap it here, here or here". He is surrounded by a great group of mids who corral him really well against any third-man-up attempts, and who know exactly where he's tapping it to.

He's a great athlete and has been brilliantly utilised, but he's not elite. Sooner or later one of the top sides will work out how to blunt his effectiveness, and it will be back to the drawing board.

Disagree in that NicNat is a one trick pony, he's better than that. But I agree that he is being developed nicely and the WCE mids are working well with him.

Would I want MFC to trade for him? Sure, if his ties to WA weren't so strong and we looked a better destination. Cost would probably be prohibitive. He has massive potential that is only now being realised. Gawn is a good prospect and needs better support. Our second ruck options are thin, as are our high end mids stock.

Edited July 23, 201510 yr by Moonshadow

This NikNat elite conversation started with a post that he was a show pony.

Elite or not, and I don't see him as a elite, he is a good and important player for WC and I wouldn't think considered just a show pony.

I'd be extremely disappointed if Garland was to leave this club.

Quality player. Quality individual. Quality clubman.

Sign him up.

You and many others said the exact same thing about Frawley.

Look how that turned out?

I cannot for the life of me understand this way of thinking.

What makes him a quality player in your eyes? What is his value to our side presently?

You and many others said the exact same thing about Frawley.

Look how that turned out?

I cannot for the life of me understand this way of thinking.

What makes him a quality player in your eyes? What is his value to our side presently?

Frawley got us pick 3 and Garland will get pick 26 in a weak draft if we are lucky.

Steve your unhealthy obsession with Garland is like Titan with Dunn and Picket Fence with Toumpas.

Frawley got us pick 3 and Garland will get pick 26 in a weak draft if we are lucky.

Steve your unhealthy obsession with Garland is like Titan with Dunn and Picket Fence with Toumpas.

And me and Scarlett Johanssen.

True, but there's no reason to think that Gawn's stats will grade out dramatically by the end of the season.

There’s no question that Gawn’s sample size is small by comparison to NicNat’s. It doesn’t mean you can’t extrapolate some meaningful observations from what he’s put up in that time.

NicNat will continue to be the most athletic big man in the competition and his clearance work is exceptional for a 200cm player. What he doesn’t have is the ability to read play well enough to get around the ground as a link up option ala Cox or marking forward option.

His best footy is going to be around the ball.

What we’ve seen from Gawn is the ability to link up, take multiple contested marks and be a presence around the ground. He won’t be the stoppage influence that NicNat is, but his tapwork has been very good all the same. His chase down tackles have also been impressive. There’s no reason to think that Gawn won’t be able to provide these things going forward, he should only improve from here. The traits and capabilities won't disappear, but trick is consistency.

Agree with all this but a couple of stats that show Gawn up to have the ability to have much greater impact on games than NicNat going forward when you compare the two are contested poss and clearances which you would think Nicnat would have a big advantage over Gawn.

Cont Poss 9.1 Nicnat 9.0 Gawn

Clearances 4.1 Nicnat 3.0 Gawn.

With Gawn ability around the ground and his desire to get his hands dirty he has the scope to become a very good ruckman and be more complete than Nicnat.

Frawley got us pick 3 and Garland will get pick 26 in a weak draft if we are lucky.

Steve your unhealthy obsession with Garland is like Titan with Dunn and Picket Fence with Toumpas.

My 'obsession' with Garland isn't any different to Ron's except that we have differing views about his value to the side. He posts about it just as much as me and yet I don't hear you calling it an 'unhealthy obsession'...

I know why that's so. It's simply the emotional attachment one holds to a player who has played many years at the club that we're in love with.

My obsession is with desperately wanting us to continuously transform as a club and as list until there comes a time where we stop having periods of play and games where we play the most embarrassing bad football the AFL world is witnessed to.

I want to know why Ron thinks Garland is such an important signing? I want to know because he said the same thing about Frawley and it makes me think that he and the others who 'like' those statements have no idea that changes like these are just as important as recruiting well or trading well. It's not so much about the pick we'll be receiving for Garland. You all seem to bang on about it. It's more to do with the fact that we have too many one-dimensional footballers all over our list but especially in the backline with a consistent theme being 'not skilled enough'.

Just take an objective stance for a minute and look at what we need to continue to improve and you will all realise this individualised player shmoosing just doesn't make sense.

Not when we are a club who is still so short of real leaders, skilled and smart footballers and smart decision makers.

Don't be afraid of change. You might lose something good but you may gain something better.

All of the players we have moved on or who have left since Roos has been in charge we have without a doubt benefited from. Look at what Vince, Cross and Garlett have done in the short time they've been here and compare that with what Garland has achieved?

Feel the mother [censored] change ya'll. It's coming.

Edited July 23, 201510 yr by stevethemanjordan

My 'obsession' with Garland isn't any different to Ron's except that we have differing views about his value to the side. He posts about it just as much as me and yet I don't hear you calling it an 'unhealthy obsession'...

I know why that's so. It's simply the emotional attachment one holds to a player who has played many years at the club that we're in love with.

My obsession is with desperately wanting us to continuously transform as a club and as list until there comes a time where we stop having periods of play and games where we play the most embarrassing bad football the AFL world is witnessed to.

I want to know why Ron thinks Garland is such an important signing? I want to know because he said the same thing about Frawley and it makes me think that he and the others who 'like' those statements have no idea that changes like these are just as important as recruiting well or trading well. It's not so much about the pick we'll be receiving for Garland. You all seem to bang on about it. It's more to do with the fact that we have too many one-dimensional footballers all over our list but especially in the backline with a consistent theme being 'not skilled enough'.

Just take an objective stance for a minute and look at what we need to continue to improve and you will all realise this individualised player shmoosing just doesn't make sense.

Not when we are a club who is still so short of real leaders, skilled and smart footballers and smart decision makers.

Don't be afraid of change. You might lose something good but you may gain something better.

All of the players we have moved on or who have left since Roos has been in charge we have without a doubt benefited from. Look at what Vince, Cross and Garlett have done in the short time they've been here and compare that with what Garland has achieved?

Feel the mother [censored] change ya'll. It's coming.

The draft is a lottery and, while pick 26 may get you a star, it is much more likely to get you a bust. The recent pick 26’s have included great selections in Darling and Edwards, but the mode selection would be lucky to net you 30 games.

Recent Pick 26's

Toby McLean

Zachary Merrett

Jack Viney (James Stewart at 27)

Todd Elton

Jack Darling

Aaron Black

Jayden Post

Brett Meredith

Shane Edwards

Garrick Ibbotson

Matthew Little

There is also the impact on the playing group of losing another senior player which I feel you are not valuing at all.