Sam Newman's comments on Mitch Clark

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Try 50.

cheers. It's 51 though.

[Jaded No More 68,972]

This is the crux of the problem I have with the comments on these forums... when he came to the Dees we were all over the moon and Mitch was the greatest thing since sliced bread. None of us had any issues with him stiffing Brisbnane and Freemantle... we were just happy to get him.

While he was with us and he was diagnosed with severe depression, we all sympathised with him and were happy to give him space and time to get himself right.

When he was advised to leave the club and start afresh in a new environment (and who are we to say that is not a valid way of treating his depression), all of a sudden he becomes public enemy number one, we are experts on the subject and we say he never had depression, he was faking the whole thing in order to line his pockets, he deserves everything that is coming to him, and on it goes.

So, in my capacity as an armchair expert in such matters of the mind, I suggest to my peers that we all move on before we get so overheated that we spontaneously combust where we are sitting.

He copped a lot of flack when he came to us from other sides. Nothing has changed.

[daisycutter 29,691]

cheers. It's 51 though.

not till september

[ThreeOneSix 954]

I don't think there is any doubt that Clark had/has some mental illness issues and that is a no go zone.

Interesting to note that had he stayed at the dees he would have played in a solid win rather than a significant loss. There should be enough sledgey material without having to get into the mental illness stuff.

Footy is a fickle game, wouldn't it be nice to past the cats over the next couple of years.

I don't think it is a 'no go zone', but it is a waste of time for us to be speculating, or even wasting our time on Clark.

As supporters I think we should be focusing on our opening win, or our upcoming game. The Clark chapter is done to a dinner, we now have Lumumba and he has been brilliant.

We have Vince and Dawes coming in this week, Hogan is running out for his second game, Brayshaw had a great debut, there are many talking points.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

not till september

pretty sure we won't be raising the cup

[3Dee 1,153]

inevitable, not our problem.

[Vandenberger With The Lot 238]

inevitable, not our problem.

Exactly.

We're all sitting here arguing over the events of a game where neither team was Melbourne.

When we play Geelong I would hope our players don't sledge Mitch for his illness, until then could not give a stuff.

[Squarky 10]

Here's why:

This club has not won a flag for 51 years. We have not even played in the finals for 8 years. At various times in recent history our very existence has been in doubt. We have no respect. We both NEED and DESERVE some real success very soon.

Now, it looks like PJ and Roos are making some ground at least to make us competitive again.

Do you know what would be really, really handy right now? How about a coleman medal type full forward?

Well, we had one. We traded a high draft pick and put a lot of money into one even though he battled to get on the park. When he really crashed out we stood by him and supported him.

Then he turned around and royally screwed us. You can talk for 1000 years but nothing will change the fact that his stated reasoning for not coming back to the MFC is not fair nor reasonable. Nor does it even make any sense.

If he had lined up for us this year, which was obviously the decent, honourable thing to do, we would absolutely be looking at finals.

Getting Lumumba out of the mess took a lot of the sting out of it, but still, it was a dog act that has cost us dearly.

There will be no construction of bridges from this poster.

A thousand times this. The first time the MFC found out about Clark wanting to leave Melbourne was when his manager got on AFL Gameday and let slip that Mitch had 'been advised' that playing elsewhere would be beneficial. the fact that he didn't have this conversation with the club before making it public is a stain on his character.

It appears that the club supported him to the hilt, and then perhaps offered him a lower performance-based contract than he anticipated. He went searching for $$ elsewhere, and didn't have the decency to repay the faith and $$ that the MFC had invested in him.

We were never going to get fair value for him until he returned and played good footy... and he knew it. (Although I'm pleased with Lumumba!)

He ditched the MFC in an underhanded fashion, when he owed the club much more, and cannot be forgiven for that.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

C'mon Moonie, you've seen carefully-worded media statements like this.

Nowhere does it state that Clark was sledged about his depression. But the words of Selwood (no doubt given to him & carefully rehearsed with him by the club's media officer) are designed to give that impression without stating it, and thus to draw sympathy for the sledgee, without actually accusing anybody of anything.

And Gibson's just stating that he personally wouldn't sledge anybody because of depression.

It's often what's not said that's as important as what's said.

Only your first sentence is correct akum.

After reading the article it is clear that in reference to the sledging they were referring to Mitch's depression, hence the terms used: depression, illness and "in the right head space".

Did they say on TFS or was it reported in the afl article that Mitch was sledged because of alleged indescretions at former clubs, for using our training facilities before leaving the club or for dissing the no 11 jumper as some have alluded to here? No, we have made that up here on Land.

Now, none of us are privy to what was actually said on the field, but the best estimation from that storm in a teacup afl article and that rubbish of a TV show is that they believe Mitch was sledged about his depression.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Moonshadow

[Slartibartfast 17,518]

Newman is a tool. Attack Clark for having depression is ridiculous. Clark has declared himself fit to play, he'll cop it over the fence but he shouldn't have to cop it from players. You wouldn't sledge a player for having any other illness.

Not sure I agree with this. Does that mean we don't tackle Ablett hard and try to test out his shoulder? Whatever happened to "if you're on the ground you're fit" argument?

This is a highly competitive sport. If Clark is not in a position to take a few barbs then I'd suggest he may not be in a position to play.

Also if he's having a bad day and getting upset, do we give him the ball to make him feel better?

Na, get on with it Mitch. You're fit or you're not.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Baghdad Bob

[sue 9,126]

Players will sledge for whatever reason they can use unless the AFL has made it clear a particular sledge is forbidden (eg racist remarks, and rightly so). They haven't produced a 'No Mention of Mental Illness' policy yet, and in any case it would be a can of worms given the enormous uncertainties of what can be said and to whom.

I'm not surprised that some Hawthorn players may have gone to far in trying to put their opponent off. But I am surprised that the Hawthorn supporters would think that booing him would have that effect or that it would occur to them to do so at all. On the other hand, I'm equally surprised that they would be booing him for any dastardly deed he did to other clubs. Puzzled.

[Gator 17,445]

Interesting thoughts 'ProDee'...have you got links to articles from these experts?

Try this:

http://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-disorders/psychiatristsphysicians-on-lack-of-any-medicalscientific-tests/

According to experts within the industry depression isn't a disease or illness. Medical "evidence" is merely supported by a checklist of behaviours.

There's no diagnosis in psychiatry.

[praha 11,240]

Irrespective of his mental health, he royally screwed the club over, and I think fans from other clubs recognise this and call him out for it.

Being depressed doesn't give him a free pass from being held to account for putting in a bad position the people that helped him through it.

Granted we should move on but I actually have no sympathy for anything he'll go through as a result of his timing of the move. I think it's all far too coincidental that he did what he did. I don't think it delegitimises his health problems or anything, but it's hard to ignore that potential of using it to get out of a contract at a bad club. I think Melbourne were used as saps and kicked around like a hackey sack by Clark, and I think the broader AFL community acknowledges that.

There's no justification for attacking his mental health directly, but I think it's fair game to let him hear about screwing Melbourne over. It was a dog act. I feel sorry that he mental health problems, but that isn't reason enough to walk out. It's hard to buy the, "I need a different environment" argument when you decide to go to a top club that is under far more scrutiny. The attention he got on the weekend is exactly what he wanted to get away from at Melbourne (apparently). You reap what you sow. It was a [censored] excuse. If you want out of the limelight, you don't go to a top club in the league's biggest media market.

Edited April 10, 2015 by praha

[Lucifers Hero 40,302]

Irrespective of his mental health, he royally screwed the club over, and I think fans from other clubs recognise this and call him out for it.

Being depressed doesn't give him a free pass from being held to account for putting in a bad position the people that helped him through it.

Granted we should move on but I actually have no sympathy for anything he'll go through as a result of his timing of the move. I think it's all far too coincidental that he did what he did. I don't think it delegitimises his health problems or anything, but it's hard to ignore that potential of using it to get out of a contract at a bad club. I think Melbourne were used as saps and kicked around like a hackey sack by Clark, and I think the broader AFL community acknowledges that.

There's no justification for attacking his mental health directly, but I think it's fair game to let him hear about screwing Melbourne over. It was a dog act. I feel sorry that he mental health problems, but that isn't reason enough to walk out. It's hard to buy the, "I need a different environment" argument when you decide to go to a top club that is under far more scrutiny. The attention he got on the weekend is exactly what he wanted to get away from at Melbourne (apparently). You reap what you sow. It was a [censored] excuse. If you want out of the limelight, you don't go to a top club in the league's biggest media market.

Quite right! And, if he wants out of the limelight he should deal with 'sledging' like any type of vilification, through official channels.

According to SEN, Hawthorn have said the TFS was the first they knew as no complaint had been made to them or the AFL. HFC believe it could have been one comment from one player and if so said player will apologize. One wonders about Clark's motives to allow this to come up in the media rather than official channels. Someone from GFC leaked it.

Of course none of that has anything to do with crowd booing...which was not 'sour grapes' as it wasn't the Dees booing. It was a bit like Sydney supporters booing Hird. The footy public is informed and know when morality has been breached. Both Hird and Clark can expect the booing to continue from neutral crowds.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Lucifer's Hero

[rjay 25,061]

Try this:

http://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-disorders/psychiatristsphysicians-on-lack-of-any-medicalscientific-tests/

According to experts within the industry depression isn't a disease or illness. Medical "evidence" is merely supported by a checklist of behaviours.

There's no diagnosis in psychiatry.

Thanks for the link.

I would be careful drawing a line from this, selective quotes taken out of context. It seems Szasz doesn't believe in mental illness not just depression not being a mental illness.

Anyway, let's not get off track here.

I'm sceptical of anything that comes from Clark, as for Sam...he and the show have been an irrelevance for sometime in my mind.

[Sir Why You Little 37,118]

WYL, your back yard must be an absolute mess... you're like a dog with a multitude of bones that you just keep digging up over and over again, labelled 186, Mitch, Scully, etc etc

what have said that others haven't?

Clark has left himself wide open on this issue.

[Uncle Fester 2,848]

Screw Clark. I hope he bursts into tears from every sledge he gets.

[hemingway 7,630]

Try this:

http://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-disorders/psychiatristsphysicians-on-lack-of-any-medicalscientific-tests/

According to experts within the industry depression isn't a disease or illness. Medical "evidence" is merely supported by a checklist of behaviours.

There's no diagnosis in psychiatry.

Thanks for this ProDee. I would be careful in reading too much into these selective quotes. Each one of which can be taken out of context and quoted to support an opinion. A couple of comments. I do agree that the DSM can be a misleading and inappropriate way to diagnose a condition. You cannot pigeon hole mental health conditions neatly in a box or definition. Diagnosis and treatment of mental health conditions are not perfect. Individuals also respond differently to treatment. Individuals with the same condition will more often than not respond differently to the same treatment. That is why psychiatrists and GP's with experience and expertise will "trial" different treatment until they find the right one. Often medication is not appropriate and will not work. Sometimes psycho analysis and cognitive behavioural treatment is more appropriate. However, in many cases of serious mental illness, medication treatment is the only way to manage a person. When it works it can transform peoples lives. Sometimes it is just part of a treatment plan and will cease when a person gets back on to his or her feet, this is particularly the case in reactive conditions, such as a depression caused by an event in someones lives. However mental illness does exist. It is an illness just in the same way as any form of illness. The mind body connection is real. An important component in physical health is a persons mental health. It also important that we do not deride or rubbish psychiatrists or mental health professionals. As with all professions, there are competent and incompetent people in the profession. But we do need them just as we need a plumber or dentist.

[Elusive Tunbridge 795]

The CCHR link is very dodgy material - akin to anti-vaccination stuff. Severe depression is a well acknowledged medical condition.

Depression may be a reason for taking poor decisions, but it's not an excuse. The black dog bites dogs, too. We boo the dog, not the bite.

[olisik 4,060]

Wonder if Frawley was behind this

[Sir Why You Little 37,118]

The CCHR link is very dodgy material - akin to anti-vaccination stuff. Severe depression is a well acknowledged medical condition.

Depression may be a reason for taking poor decisions, but it's not an excuse. The black dog bites dogs, too. We boo the dog, not the bite.

Agree 100%

[Redleg 41,397]

As far as I am concerned, give us back pick 12 and say $1m of the $2m that we wasted on him and I would have no problems at all with MC and what happened.

It is also laughable, that MC returning to us, was touted by Mark Evans as one of the main reasons he wouldn't give us a PP.

[Akum 2,660]

Wonder if Frawley was behind this

... or whether it's being used to cast aspersions on Frawley.

Or to make excuses for getting towelled up by Frawley.

[Gator 17,445]

Thanks for this ProDee. I would be careful in reading too much into these selective quotes. Each one of which can be taken out of context and quoted to support an opinion. A couple of comments. I do agree that the DSM can be a misleading and inappropriate way to diagnose a condition. You cannot pigeon hole mental health conditions neatly in a box or definition. Diagnosis and treatment of mental health conditions are not perfect. Individuals also respond differently to treatment. Individuals with the same condition will more often than not respond differently to the same treatment. That is why psychiatrists and GP's with experience and expertise will "trial" different treatment until they find the right one. Often medication is not appropriate and will not work. Sometimes psycho analysis and cognitive behavioural treatment is more appropriate. However, in many cases of serious mental illness, medication treatment is the only way to manage a person. When it works it can transform peoples lives. Sometimes it is just part of a treatment plan and will cease when a person gets back on to his or her feet, this is particularly the case in reactive conditions, such as a depression caused by an event in someones lives. However mental illness does exist. It is an illness just in the same way as any form of illness. The mind body connection is real. An important component in physical health is a persons mental health. It also important that we do not deride or rubbish psychiatrists or mental health professionals. As with all professions, there are competent and incompetent people in the profession. But we do need them just as we need a plumber or dentist.

Thanks for that.

Is it an illness or a disorder ?

[Gator 17,445]

Depression is a disease, no doubt.

A disease ?

This doesn't make sense tom me.