No way Dr.

A negative test wouldn't change the fact that they "attempted" to use the stuff. Still illegal, and worth the full 2 year ban.

A positive test would simply provide the proof that most of us crave, so the smug essendrug supporters, and the media sellouts would finally have to shut their stupid traps, while we gloat and celebrate a demise that should have come 1 year ago

It is interesting that the consent forms are the only records referencing the injection regime and they didn't list banned substances. I don't think there is any evidence of attempted us from the players, only a circumstantial chain of custody from Dank to the club, but not the players. It would have been different if the players ordered what they thought was TB4.

The more we look at this it appears that the club hierarchy deliberately implemented a performance enhancing drug injection regime and put in place safe guards in case they were caught - a rogue 'scientists', carefully crafted consent forms, a lack of records, off site injections.

It is interesting that the consent forms are the only records referencing the injection regime and they didn't list banned substances. I don't think there is any evidence of attempted us from the players, only a circumstantial chain of custody from Dank to the club, but not the players. It would have been different if the players ordered what they thought was TB4.

The more we look at this it appears that the club hierarchy deliberately implemented a performance enhancing drug injection regime and put in place safe guards in case they were caught - a rogue 'scientists', carefully crafted consent forms, a lack of records, off site injections.

The consent form included AOD which was banned and Thymosin, which may be banned depending on which Thymosin. They actually point to the players not taking their resposibilities seriously as they signed a form where they could not be sure what was being used. The just intended to do as Dank wanted, and if he wanted to give them banned substances then I would say so did they!

You may be right, Daisy, but I thought there was some suggestion that blood samples already exist, so it wouldn't necessarily be a matter of testing 3-5 years after the event.

As for all those medical breakthroughs that don't eventuate, often it's the case that they do eventuate but only after rigorous testing has occurred and when everyone has forgotten the original hoopla ... of course it's that sort of testing that people like Dank don't necessarily believe in.

The timeline needs to fit in with the blood tests too .. It's entirely possible that all the Essendon players were administered with TB4 (knowingly) and for the TB4 to not show up in those "said" blood tests (because it was out of their system)

So, if they are in fact found guilty of taking TB4 by the CAS (if WADA appeal) then the lack of positive tests (if that was to eventuate) shouldn't make any difference.

WADA/ASADA just needs to prove intent (normally that's the case) The '"proof" part can be as little as importing or purchasing a product that contains PED's.

Where the lines have been crossed is the whole burden of proof/ comfortable satisfaction/ absolute guilt/ beyond reasonable doubt argument. The more confusing it all becomes (or became) the greater the chance the Essendon players can or could get off (in my opinion)

Basically, if the tribunal had followed the WADA agreement to the letter then they should have found the players guilty ... as it stands, it seems to me that the tribunal wanted a lot more than "comfortable satisfaction" The rules of engagement were shifted.

Again, it's just my opinion rather than me reporting the facts. Most of what I've written is already known but sometimes it's necessary for a bit of a refresher.

^^ of course the AFL wanted to show that their game was clean, and this was the predetermined outcome given the panel they chose themselves to appoint. They won't have that luxury with CAS and WADA. It may well come back to bite them on the bum.

Oh for some clarity . . .

This article (orig from The Australian) seems to suggest one of two possibilities: there was no TB4 at Essendon and us haters have egg on face . . or Dank lied to the ACC and will likely go to prison!!

Also . . has Dank been given immunity from criminal proceeding because he has provided information to the ACC that implicates "people" in more serious matters than just pushing PEDs??

THE sports scientist at the centre of the Essendon supplements scandal has given sworn evidence that he provided players with a permitted Thymosin peptide and not the banned substance alleged by the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority.

The Australian has learned that Stephen Dank, when questioned at length by Australian Crime Commission investigators in May 2012, testified that he administered Essendon players with Thymomodulin, an immunity booster safely given to infants, and not Thymosin Beta 4, a substance banned in sport.

The testimony, which Dank provided after being advised that his evidence could not be used in any criminal or anti-doping proceedings against him, is the only sworn evidence he has given about the substances he used at Essendon. Dank has refused to be interviewed by ASADA.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AFL/comments/28u9r2/dank_has_given_sworn_evidence_that_he_provided/

That's very interesting...

n announcing his decision not to take the matter to the AFL appeals tribunal last month, McDevitt indicated he wanted the case examined by a tribunal outside the AFL's jurisdiction.

“I am conscious that ASADA does not have a direct right of appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport and the only appeal avenue open to ASADA at this time is to the AFL Anti-Doping Appeals Tribunal,” he said on April 20.

“I am also aware that appealing any of these decisions within the AFL framework would ultimately serve only to delay consideration of these matters by WADA.”

McDevitt has received strong support from the heads of anti-doping bodies around the world since the AFL tribunal verdict."

I find that section most interesting and particularly in regard to my thoughts on the "intent".there is clear evidence that they undertook to do whatever it takes, it is clear that evidence was destroyed. If the tests were clean why were the details destroyed.

Maybe Danks under oath will continue his story that the drug was approved by verbal undefined ASADA source and was ok anyway. He may want to resurect his opinion that what he was doing will revolutionise programs and will be good for all. Appealing to his ego may well draw these responses out. He remains adamant that records were kept . So where are they and why were they destroyed can again be at the core of any investigation

Yes of course they did, but they knew that their blood samples were still being stored when the new sanctioned test for blood doping was invented, and they also knew that within those samples contained potentially positive tests. I venture they would never have "confessed" otherwise.

Stretching it. White confessed because he was at US Postal and was effectively named in the USADA Armstrong case as Rider 9. Hodge stopped riding in 1996 so a) way past the statue of limitations of 8 years and b) to my knowledge, no samples (both A and B) are stored from that period.

I can't stand essendope supporters! They seriously think they are innocent

I can't stand essendope supporters! They seriously think they are innocent

just think of them all as deluded cult members and you will understand why.

McDevitt's strategic withdrawal and handing it to WADA was another clever play, as was the way his trip to Montreal was announced.

You seriously give McDevitt far too much credit.

"clever play"? More like his only play after ASADA comprehensively lost at the tribunal.

The Montreal trip is interesting.

Can't see why he would head over there unless they are planning an appeal to CAS.

You seriously give McDevitt far too much credit.

"clever play"? More like his only play after ASADA comprehensively lost at the tribunal.

The Montreal trip is interesting.

Can't see why he would head over there unless they are planning an appeal to CAS.

Dare I Say Ash you Windy Hill roots are showing through ??? McDevit will be going there anyway for a normally scheduled get together.

The Esendon fiasco will be high on their list anyway.

So you 'rate' the tribunal ? Seriously ??

Mate. I thought you had reason.

Whether I rate the tribunal or not, appealing here in Oz would have been foolish.

Handing over the case to WADA was the obvious move, not a fiendishly clever play.

McDevitt/ASADA gave it a shot, and fell well short.

I don't think he had an option other than to go to big brother.

My Essendon roots have nothing to do with the point I was making.

Personally, and with no real knowledge, just my gut feel, WADA will appeal the case to CAS.

McDevitt traveling to Montreal only strengthens my thoughts that the appeal will proceed.

... after ASADA comprehensively lost at the tribunal.

From what I can see, not too many seem to share your view. The outcome at the tribunal turned on one decision, whether or not it was TB4 that left the plant - that manufactures TB4.

Once that domino didn't fall, none of the others followed.

Just a couple of points today.

Seemed like the boys were a little miffed today. Perhaps some disconcerting news on the vine. and

It would not surprise me to find that Switkowski's enquiries gave him that feeling of what the hell am I doing here and I'm not allowed see what isn't here anyway.

Perhaps he just might be ASADA/WADA's trump private interview (s).

One could just imagine going in the door looking for (after a brief saunter around) the three wise monkeys !!!

What was the the point Ash ?

We'd probably agree the tribunal was a farce.

ASADA wasn't trounced as much as nobbled.

Obvious was always going to CAS.

Seemed like a cheap shot at McDevitt...or were you seduced by the rabbittings of the filth estate ?

You're better than this my friend

Mate, your hatred for all things red and black is blinding you to what I am actually saying.

The comment was made that it was a "clever play" by McDevitt to hand over to WADA like it was some masterstroke.

It was his ONLY play.

Where else was he to go. He was never going to win on appeal here, so blind Freddy knew what was going to happen next.

McDevitt has done his job. I'm not bagging him. He done the best he could do with what he had at his disposal.

But he isn't a clever mastermind, he has done a solid job. That's all.

A cheap shot at him, no, just a comment.

There is enough cheap shots being fired here that you don't need mine.

I was just commenting mate, sorry I not joining in the chorus of wanting the Dons banned from the AFL for ever.

I read every comment on here.

I could say a lot, but I don't, there is no point.

I chip in one comment, and I still get accused of looking at things through red and black glasses.

I reckon you hate Essendon as much as I love them.

So no real point in trying to discuss this topic.

I think WADA will appeal. They should. Too many questions remain unanswered.

It is interesting that the consent forms are the only records referencing the injection regime and they didn't list banned substances. I don't think there is any evidence of attempted us from the players, only a circumstantial chain of custody from Dank to the club, but not the players. It would have been different if the players ordered what they thought was TB4.

The more we look at this it appears that the club hierarchy deliberately implemented a performance enhancing drug injection regime and put in place safe guards in case they were caught - a rogue 'scientists', carefully crafted consent forms, a lack of records, off site injections.

It is quite simple really - Hird sought to get an advantage over others by taking substances - illegal substances, and covered it up. In other words they cheated, and McDevitt and ASADA are right to call them to account. "Whatever it takes" indeed.

It is quite simple really - Hird sought to get an advantage over others by taking substances - illegal substances, and covered it up. In other words they cheated, and McDevitt and ASADA are right to call them to account. "Whatever it takes" indeed.

Which is why I just cannot bring myself to watch Essendon games - they have massively brought our whole game into disrepute and ruined it as a competition because there will always be serious doubts about unusual performances. That, and seeing that greasy haired smug cheat in the coaches box sickens me to the stomach.

You seriously give McDevitt far too much credit.

"clever play"? More like his only play after ASADA comprehensively lost at the tribunal.

The Montreal trip is interesting.

Can't see why he would head over there unless they are planning an appeal to CAS.

As I predicted months ago on here, ASADA was always going to lose at the AFL Tribunal. The appeal was set up by the AFL to do so. They simply could not afford it any other way, and hope like hell Hird's PR hysteria about "wasting taxpayer money", "ASADA being an incompetent organisation" and "McDevitt is out of his depth" would deter ASADA/WADA from appealing. McDevitt called then out, by passing it straight to WADA because he knew further appeals through the AFL was complete waste of time and money, and further maintained an Australian public platform for Hird's meddling through his acolytes in the press and government.

Since McDevitt's play, do you notice how the Hird PR machine has gone strangely quiet? Perhaps they are beginning to accept the inevitable - that this saga will end in an unbiased international sport's court over which they have no influence. Infact further manoeuvring may influence Essendon/Hird's case negatively in the eyes of the judges given that most CAS Arbitrators not associated with football are from Olympic sports who mostly can't abide the influence wealthy football codes have over the governance of sport.

Sometimes, just sometimes, the good guys win!.

Mate, your hatred for all things red and black is blinding you to what I am actually saying.

The comment was made that it was a "clever play" by McDevitt to hand over to WADA like it was some masterstroke.

It was his ONLY play.

Where else was he to go. He was never going to win on appeal here, so blind Freddy knew what was going to happen next.

McDevitt has done his job. I'm not bagging him. He done the best he could do with what he had at his disposal.

But he isn't a clever mastermind, he has done a solid job. That's all.

A cheap shot at him, no, just a comment.

There is enough cheap shots being fired here that you don't need mine.

I was just commenting mate, sorry I not joining in the chorus of wanting the Dons banned from the AFL for ever.

I read every comment on here.

I could say a lot, but I don't, there is no point.

I chip in one comment, and I still get accused of looking at things through red and black glasses.

I reckon you hate Essendon as much as I love them.

So no real point in trying to discuss this topic.

I think WADA will appeal. They should. Too many questions remain unanswered.

Great to see a bomber with this attitude. Too many think the tribunal answered all the questions and said the bombers did no wrong. That couldn't be further from the truth.

The truth is written evidence has been destroyed or hidden.

Great to see a bomber with this attitude. Too many thing the tribunal answered all questions and said the bombers did no wrong. That couldn't be further from the truth.

As an Essendon member, I would like to know what my players were injected with.

Pure and simple.

If it's the bad stuff, punishments have to be given. Can't escape that.

This is a very passionate topic, for everyone.

Sometimes passions blurs the lines of logic.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, so you get the Essendon supporters who think we've done nothing wrong and are dirty on the world for slandering the club for 2 years.

And you get opposition supporters who want Essendon booted from the AFL forever and won't watch another game of AFL until it happens.

I worry for the state of mind for some of the posters on Demonland if WADA don't appeal.

As an Essendon member, I would like to know what my players were injected with.

Pure and simple.

If it's the bad stuff, punishments have to be given. Can't escape that.

This is a very passionate topic, for everyone.

Sometimes passions blurs the lines of logic.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, so you get the Essendon supporters who think we've done nothing wrong and are dirty on the world for slandering the club for 2 years.

And you get opposition supporters who want Essendon booted from the AFL forever and won't watch another game of AFL until it happens.

I worry for the state of mind for some of the posters on Demonland if WADA don't appeal.

Agree 'Ash'...

Also agree that McDevitt had no other option than to let it go through to WADA.

yes, i understood that some blood samples were taken in 2012(?) and originally sent overseas for testing

they could have been very close to the time of tb4 injecting or maybe months later

there is also the possibility that 4 year old tb4 in a blood sample could have deteriorated/chemically altered

these are just possibilities, that's all

obviously if there is an imminent test available and it is +ve it would seem to be a lay down misere

The irony, of course, is that with a lay down misere you lose every trick.

As an Essendon member, I would like to know what my players were injected with.

Pure and simple.

If it's the bad stuff, punishments have to be given. Can't escape that.

This is a very passionate topic, for everyone.

Sometimes passions blurs the lines of logic.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, so you get the Essendon supporters who think we've done nothing wrong and are dirty on the world for slandering the club for 2 years.

And you get opposition supporters who want Essendon booted from the AFL forever and won't watch another game of AFL until it happens.

I worry for the state of mind for some of the posters on Demonland if WADA don't appeal.

IMHO much better if WADA doesn't appeal, keep things just as they are IE Essendon cheated in 2012 and got away with it due to the destruction of evidence and witness tampering! That stigma will never go away . . . and I'm quite happy with that!!