Training - Friday 9th January, 2015

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

No we are not

Big difference between hitting targets at training and AFL gameday when intensity goes through the roof.

Simple fact is Mckenzie has very poor disposal. Unless he improves that dramatically he will be gone at the end of the year.

Do you mean like some of the posts on here, they miss the target now and again

Do you have his disposal efficiency % to back up that sweeping statement, when you look it up, I think you will be surprised

[Gorgoroth 12,325]

Why would we be dissapointed?

That some one with limited skills at the highest level got better?

We don't point out their flaws cod we like too, we point them out as they sre something the club and players need to eradicate.

I wish all our players were fantastic, reality is, if players like Jordie, Bail etc keep their skills the same as last year and are still getting a game then we will not win more than five games.

But, like Dunn and Jetta, if they can lift their skills then our chances of being a much better side improve.

[CBDees 3,162]

Where did Pig Dog finish? I didn't see him listed?

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

Why would we be dissapointed?

That some one with limited skills at the highest level got better?

We don't point out their flaws cod we like too, we point them out as they sre something the club and players need to eradicate.

I wish all our players were fantastic, reality is, if players like Jordie, Bail etc keep their skills the same as last year and are still getting a game then we will not win more than five games.

But, like Dunn and Jetta, if they can lift their skills then our chances of being a much better side improve.

Yes I'm afraid to say some do, it makes them feel better, the players and the coaches all know where a player needs to improve, if they don't they are moved on, as Bail, Terlich, McKenzie etc are still on the list this year, means that the coaches believe they should be there

[Yossarian 1,808]

Such a pleasant way to start a day, reading up on Saty's fanboy butthurt rants over a cup of tea on a Friday morning. Carry on, lads.

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

Such a pleasant way to start a day, reading up on Saty's fanboy butthurt rants over a cup of tea on a Friday morning. Carry on, lads.

As long as I am not putting too many syllables for you to handle with your green tea, we should be ok, I don't rant old chap, I try and keep it simple remembering where I am posting

To get back on topic, earlier report said Petracca looked exhausted after 3k run, during the training session he performed the best I have seen from him yet, he did one bullet pass at high speed to Dawes (which he didn't drop) that drew praise and applause from everybody

Edited January 9, 2015 by The Devil Inside

[Watts Jurrah Dunn? 735]

What a terrific effort by Mitchell White beating home an experienced player and professional trainer like Lamumba.

With that deadly left foot, decent height/build, and impressive running ability he certainly ticks a few boxes. Let's hope he can play!

[dazzledavey36 48,823]

Do you mean like some of the posts on here, they miss the target now and again

Do you have his disposal efficiency % to back up that sweeping statement, when you look it up, I think you will be surprised

Do you know what saty?Over the last couple horrid years some of supporters have been right all along while you continue to trud out same old cliches 'coaches knows better then anyone on here, il back the clubs opinion over yours blah blah' if it was up to some of us in some of the key decisions over the year we would be alot further ahead.

The fact and reality is Mckenzie is a very limited footballer.

No I dont have the disposal effiency because I cant find. And unless you can show me be very carefull in saying "you will be very surprised" because you would wanna hope its right up there.

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

What a terrific effort by Mitchell White beating home an experienced player and professional trainer like Lamumba.

With that deadly left foot, decent height/build, and impressive running ability he certainly ticks a few boxes. Let's hope he can play!

When I chatted to him, said endurance running was one of his strengths, he competes well doing the laps of Goschs as well, was mystified whey he wasn't drafted, thought maybe he was just wrong place wrong time, ie not a midfield or key back/forward, glad to get the rookie chance

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

Do you know what saty?Over the last couple horrid years some of supporters have been right all along while you continue to trud out same old cliches 'coaches knows better then anyone on here, il back the clubs opinion over yours blah blah' if it was up to some of us in some of the key decisions over the year we would be alot further ahead.

The fact and reality is Mckenzie is a very limited footballer.

No I dont have the disposal effiency because I cant find. And unless you can show me be very carefull in saying "you will be very surprised" because you would wanna hope its right up there

With saying that, I didn't ever see you speaking up at AGM's or putting yourself forward to assist the club, I attended a workshop recently and when asked for words that sprung to mind with MFC, I said whingers, and was howled down, then the whingeing started, but nobody came up with solutions as per the norm

I am a realist, the club fell in a hole of it's own making, and somebody kicked the ladder away, we have now found the ladder, we just have to climb out of the hole

The coaches do know better, that is why they are an AFL coach, and most if not all on here are not

Some on here can't even form their own opinions, I listen to or read a piece from one of the so called experts in the media and the next day it's quoted on here as fact

Jordie's disposal efficiency is around the normal for most solid AFL players over their career which is 75 to 80%, if it wasn't he wouldn't be on the list

Actually to make a point re the efficiency, Nev Jetta's was always in the 90% region yet he was delisted, why because his body continually let him down, let's see what McKenzie can do with a full preseason

Edited January 9, 2015 by The Devil Inside

[Wunders 385]

If jordie isn't delisted at the end of the year as many have thought, i wonder then who will be instead? have to make 3 changes at least so its getting harder and harder to delist guys now which is great

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

I am a realist, the club fell in a hole of it's own making, and somebody kicked the ladder away, we have now found the ladder, we just have to climb out of the hole

This is probably the best summation of our club I've seen a while.

Made me want to laugh and cry at the same time.

[dazzledavey36 48,823]

With saying that, I didn't ever see you speaking up at AGM's or putting yourself forward to assist the club, I attended a workshop recently and when asked for words that sprung to mind with MFC, I said whingers, and was howled down, then the whingeing started, but nobody came up with solutions as per the norm

I am a realist, the club fell in a hole of it's own making, and somebody kicked the ladder away, we have now found the ladder, we just have to climb out of the hole

The coaches do know better, that is why they are an AFL coach, and most if not all on here are not

Some on here can't even form their own opinions, I listen to or read a piece from one of the so called experts in the media and the next day it's quoted on here as fact

Jordie's disposal efficiency is around the normal for most solid AFL players over their career which is 75 to 80%, if it wasn't he wouldn't be on the list

Actually to make a point re the efficiency, Nev Jetta's was always in the 90% region yet he was delisted, why because his body continually let him down, let's see what McKenzie can do with a full preseason

1. I live 3 hours away so I am unable to get there, I have numerous of times sent emails and letters to the club over the years in regards to players to watch out for in the TAC especially from the Murray Bushrangers as their home ground is up here in Wangaratta and I see a lot of Sunday games.

2. Its not just coaches but also recruiting department, player management (giving Mckenzie a 3 year deal, picking up Tom Gillies etc) For an example back in 2009 majority on here wanted Daniel Talia drafted at pick 11 as we were desperate for tall after taking two mids with our first two selections. What does Barry Prendergast do? draft a skinny rake thin mid that was calculated to go 2nd to 3rd round pick. No one even predicted him to be even in the top 20. A lot of us on here were bewilded.

3. The Irony..

4. Again where did you get this stat from so I can read it as a fact not from your mouth or own opinion. Against PA at Adelaide Oval he missed a dead setter from 25 in front at a crucial time. The week after against Brisbane he misses a goal from 15 m out dead set in front. Its an unacceptable and poor display from a players that's had 6 years worth of AFL experience and training and also someone that is considered a leader around the club to the young fellas. Just remember he is handball happy a lot of the time. He may hit targets via hand but by foot again he is very poor. Needs to be addressed or he is out.

5. James Strauss was arguably our best kick yet he was delisted because he was just plain [censored]. Again he was a very limited footballer like McKenzie.

[Beats 190]

If jordie isn't delisted at the end of the year as many have thought, i wonder then who will be instead? have to make 3 changes at least so its getting harder and harder to delist guys now which is great

It's harder than last year, but it's still pretty simple to identify those in the gun.

Players currently out of contract at the end of 2015:

Jamar (UFA), Garland (RFA), Trengove, McKenzie, Howe, Gawn, Fitzpatrick, Toumpas, Pedersen, Salem, Kennedy-Harris, Hunt, Cross, Bail, Riley, Harmes ®, King ®

At this stage Howe, Gawn, Toumpas, Salem and JKH are the only ones that I would guarantee another contract.

Potential retirees/ free agents:

It's likely that Cross will retire at the end of the season.

I can see it getting increasingly difficult for Garland to get a game ( =[ ), especially given that he isn't burning up the track so far this pre-season. May look at free agency or even retire.

Same boat as Garland for Jamar, would expect that Gawn (or possibly spencer) will have taken the number 1 ruck role by the start of the 2016 season.

Trengove's foot may never recover properly (worst case scenario)

Potential delistees:

As they will be out of contract the likes of Mckenzie, Fitzpatrick, Pedersen, Hunt, Bail and Riley will need to show why the should stay on the list.

At this stage my prediction is:

Cross (ret), Garland (FA), Mckenzie (del), Fitzpatrick (del)

Jamar, Trengove, Bail, Pedo, Hunt and Riley to get 1-2 year deals

Howe, Gawn, Toumpas, Salem and JKH to get 3 year deals.

[Maggot 1977 263]

Jordies stats are misleading - check out his handball to kick ratio and his long kicking ratio's. And the less we say about goal kicking the better !!!

He is too scared to kick and holds up play to handball which upsets our fluency moving forward.

Nothing wrong about his desire & commitment but IMO his disposal is too poor to be in our best 25.

Happy to proven wrong !!

[jumbo returns 6,488]

I am so excited about the JKH boy and the signing of Frost.

Huge pick up!

Magnificent recruiting......finally!

[rjay 23,922]

With saying that, I didn't ever see you speaking up at AGM's or putting yourself forward to assist the club, I attended a workshop recently and when asked for words that sprung to mind with MFC, I said whingers, and was howled down, then the whingeing started, but nobody came up with solutions as per the norm

It's hardly our unique proposition...I would think on the whingers ladder we would be way down the list. Carlton would probably head it with Essendon by a mile, were in great form when Ratten & Knights were in charge. Essendon now whinge about anything, everything & anybody they see as out to get 'em including there own supporters and they boo their own players (Stanton) consistently. Carlton just can't help whinging, it's endemic. The Pies are not bad at it either, Eddie is one big whinge and the Tiges are set up for a big whinge fest in 2015.

[rjay 23,922]

I can see it getting increasingly difficult for Garland to get a game ( =[ ), especially given that he isn't burning up the track so far this pre-season. May look at free agency or even retire.

You are underrating Garland and the even retire comment, well at 26 going on 27...hardly.

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

if all players are improving their 3km time that is a good sign, not necessarily the most indicative form of running necessary for some players, such as Jetta who is probably looking to improve his repeat sprints more so than his 3k time.

JKH was a big surprise and good on him, with the addition of Garlett I have put him for a majority of the season in the VFL but he is very good on the training track and this will work in his favour, although i still prefer Kent.

They have been looking to work on Jordie McKenzies inside game last year so he could get the ball in the stoppages, he was a major contributing factor to us being able to beat essendon as his lock down job on Stanton was exceptional, so i still think he can offer something to the team.

On the kicking issue, I personally think the Cross is our worst disposer of the ball by foot, but is very damaging overhead and by hand and this is what is able to set him apart from the other mediocre kicks.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Do you mean like some of the posts on here, they miss the target now and again

Do you have his disposal efficiency % to back up that sweeping statement, when you look it up, I think you will be surprised

Misleading stat.

Do you ever think that due to a player - (in this case McKenzie) - being aware of his weakness at a given skill, (in this case kicking) he will always go a safe/short/backward option for fear of making a mistake which will lift his disposal efficiency making this stat look awfully silly without context?

Yes I'm afraid to say some do, it makes them feel better, the players and the coaches all know where a player needs to improve, if they don't they are moved on, as Bail, Terlich, McKenzie etc are still on the list this year, means that the coaches believe they should be there

I can assure you that neither McKenzie nor Bail would still be on the list had our club not been so mismanaged in all areas over the past near decade.

With saying that, I didn't ever see you speaking up at AGM's or putting yourself forward to assist the club, I attended a workshop recently and when asked for words that sprung to mind with MFC, I said whingers, and was howled down, then the whingeing started, but nobody came up with solutions as per the norm

I am a realist, the club fell in a hole of it's own making, and somebody kicked the ladder away, we have now found the ladder, we just have to climb out of the hole

The coaches do know better, that is why they are an AFL coach, and most if not all on here are not

Some on here can't even form their own opinions, I listen to or read a piece from one of the so called experts in the media and the next day it's quoted on here as fact

Jordie's disposal efficiency is around the normal for most solid AFL players over their career which is 75 to 80%, if it wasn't he wouldn't be on the list

Actually to make a point re the efficiency, Nev Jetta's was always in the 90% region yet he was delisted, why because his body continually let him down, let's see what McKenzie can do with a full preseason

Again, misleading.

Your training reports are fascinating. I enjoy reading them. But when it comes to objectively analyzing and critiquing players in which you have developed personal relationships with, it becomes impossible for you to do.

Of course as you say, there are those on this forum who perhaps completely write off/slag off players and the club unfairly. But there are also those in-between who know that once certain players are pushed out of the side or moved on from the club, it'll be further evidence that the playing list is becoming stronger.

Your care for each player on a personal level is endearing, but it stops you from seeing the bigger picture. Of course coaches know which individuals need to improve in certain areas of their game. Of course those individuals themselves know that there are areas of their game that need improving.

Of all clubs within the AFL we're the one that has lacked the most talent and depth for years now. That is a result of having drafted and developed so poorly over the same time period. Which is a result of having the worst playing leaders, coaches and administrators within the AFL over the same time period.

Do you not think that they're the reasons we've had players like McKenzie, Bail, Nicholson, Evans etc on our list for so long? Nicholson and Evans are gone. Why? Because we have now added talent and depth, which is a result of having competent on-field leaders, coaches, recruiters and admin. That will also continue next year. And whilst Jordie will be trying as hard as he can to improve areas of his game with coaches who will be working just as hard with him, the reality is he will not be on our list for much longer. And that is because he does not add enough at AFL level. Neither myself or any other Melbourne supporter needs to be an AFL qualified coach to be able to make that call. Nor do I need a print out of his kicking efficiency average from last year. It's the ability to critically analyze in an objective manner.

Edited January 9, 2015 by stevethemanjordan

[jumbo returns 6,488]

I can assure you that neither McKenzie nor Bail would still be on the list had our club not been so mismanaged in all areas over the past near decade.

This is my smokey for 2015 - I think he'll be okay....

Will improve outta sight, because he's got good coaches behind him and takes feedback very, very well.

[jumbo returns 6,488]

Bernie has quite a rude head with all his hair shaved off.

Still one of the best looking roosters goin' around.

[Beats 190]

You are underrating Garland and the even retire comment, well at 26 going on 27...hardly.

There are plenty of players who retire at that age as their bodies cannot cope with the pressures of AFL. It's unlikely, but not beyond the realms of possibility. It's a long bow to draw I admit, I would think he'll go via free agency rather than retire - he's been one of my favourite players throughout the shizen years. Would like for him to stay in the 22, but it will be tough for him to do so.

To elaborate on my thinking - He's behind Mcdonald, Frost and Dunn for tall defender spots. Jetta now owns the lockdown small defender spot. Grimes/ Howe/ Lumumba are ahead of him for the HBF/ mid size defender roles. I have no idea where Hunt and Stretch sit, but it's been touted that they will start off a HBF when they play 1sts (likely to be years away though).

As such, in a fully fit team he is probably in the emergencies/ same boat as Terlich. Dunn is possibly the only player from those I've listed who may retire/ leave before Garland, as such the picture doesn't get brighter for him in coming years.

If I was him and was looking to maximise my earnings/ playing time I'd be looking at other teams.

Additionally, he has a long history of injuries, he's had an extended period of being smashed at the dees, he had a poor year last year (albeit coming back from injury) and according to reports his pre-season hasn't been as stellar as others so far.

Do you have his disposal efficiency % to back up that sweeping statement, when you look it up, I think you will be surprised

No I dont have the disposal effiency because I cant find. And unless you can show me be very carefull in saying "you will be very surprised" because you would wanna hope its right up there.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=12&pid1=3185&tid2=2&pid2=2327&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

Jordie averaged 10.2 (76.1%) effective disposals per game in 2014. Would think more than 80% of those effective disposals would be handballs as well.

Footywire is a great site for AFL stats (http://www.footywire.com/). So is AFL tables (http://afltables.com/afl/afl_index.html)but footywire's interface is more user friendly.

Would be surprised if Jordie is playing as an outside midfielder at AFL level. IMO outside midfielders need to have pace, creative flair and the ability to break lines through either pace or kicking. Not saying he doesn't have those abilities, but haven't seen them displayed in his 6 seasons with the club so far.

Edit: added links.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Beats

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

I can assure you that neither McKenzie nor Bail would still be on the list had our club not been so mismanaged in all areas over the past near decade.

Bail is a personal favourite of mine so i am a little biased on the issue, but i still think that he has a spot on our list for 3-4 years. His running capacity and his ability to play multiple roles are a major feature but he is also coming off the back of one of his most consistent and best seasons last year. I think he will play 18+ games and earn himself another contract

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

This is my smokey for 2015 - I think he'll be okay....

Will improve outta sight, because he's got good coaches behind him and takes feedback very, very well.

Bail is a personal favourite of mine so i am a little biased on the issue, but i still think that he has a spot on our list for 3-4 years. His running capacity and his ability to play multiple roles are a major feature but he is also coming off the back of one of his most consistent and best seasons last year. I think he will play 18+ games and earn himself another contract

I agree he offers more to the side than McKenzie. He's more versatile and played that hard running half forward well last year.

His kicking is still a concern for me.

If he can perform consistently well this year again, then yes, he'll have surprised me.

Roos has utilized Bail's strengths very well to date.