Disagree.

I am, You are, we all are, responsible for what goes into our own bodies.

they clearly asked no questions.

they signed waivers exonerating anyone else of responsibility.

they obviously did no research themselves.

they were responsible for what went into their bodies.

the players and no one else.

if they didnt know then they were deliberately ignorant.

if they were "young and stupid" they should have been guided by the older heads.

they have no excuses.

if they were injected with TB4 then they were the only ones responsible for it, and they will be held responsible for it.

we all have the power to say no.

8/42 did say no.

they were not victims.

they were cheats.

I think Doc Reid has a hell of a lot to answer for.

A simple phone call or two to ASADA and they would have told him that AOD9604 and Thymosin beta 4 were both banned.

He knew that the former was being administered to the players, expressed his doubt about it in his letters to Hird (lost in the mail?) and Hamilton, but failed to follow it up.

He was at the meeting where the protocol and consent forms were discussed, and the consent forms, as we know, listed Thymosin.

I do understand that the Mad Scientist was running amok, but Reid was too much in awe of The Golden Child to act on his doubts.

I think Doc Reid has a hell of a lot to answer for.

A simple phone call or two to ASADA and they would have told him that AOD9604 and Thymosin beta 4 were both banned.

He knew that the former was being administered to the players, expressed his doubt about it in his letters to Hird (lost in the mail?) and Hamilton, but failed to follow it up.

He was at the meeting where the protocol and consent forms were discussed, and the consent forms, as we know, listed Thymosin.

I do understand that the Mad Scientist was running amok, but Reid was too much in awe of The Golden Child to act on his doubts.

You are being very harsh. Don't you know the dog ate his homework.....

should be de-registered....

Phone calls and texts and any questions would have been traced and given the "game" away, also showing that one didn't believe the spiel by the hierarchy...

James Hird is a disgrace. Everything is about him, he is oppressed, he is wrongly accused, he is more important than the club.

Whatever advantage we may or may not gain from the legal decision that eventuates you must feel for the players.

Other than Fletcher and Watson (whom I admire) any one of them, given the vagaries of the draft, could have been ours.

Then the poor sods would have been subjected to what passes for support on this site but they found themselves at EFC through circumstance and subjected to a program they were entitled to trust.

They are victims not cheats. The cheats are the planners of the program and Hird was their boss.

Ignorance in administration is no excuse in law particularly when the message, from the coach, the overseer, is "what ever it takes".

victims my arze !!

They KNEW they were embarking on 'something" that was intended to push things beyond.

they ought to be banned from sport period but thats not possible........yet

Ignorance is never an excuse....turning a blind eye is its first cousin !!

Honestly...whats the first thing anyone with even the barest of intelligence is going to do when its suggested ...Hey...we're going to give you this, or something ...kinda like it

YA"D GOOGLE IT !! and there for all the world is all the info you'd ever need....Even if you didnt even do the thing you are educated to do , by the AFL in terms of anything...is . Check the WADA code.

How bloody hard is it !!!

You are being very harsh. Don't you know the dog ate his homework.....

Unusual . . guide dogs are generally better behaved!

victims my arze !!

They KNEW they were embarking on 'something" that was intended to push things beyond.

they ought to be banned from sport period but thats not possible........yet

Ignorance is never an excuse....turning a blind eye is its first cousin !!

Honestly...whats the first thing anyone with even the barest of intelligence is going to do when its suggested ...Hey...we're going to give you this, or something ...kinda like it

YA"D GOOGLE IT !! and there for all the world is all the info you'd ever need....Even if you didnt even do the thing you are educated to do , by the AFL in terms of anything...is . Check the WADA code.

How bloody hard is it !!!

But don't you get it,,,they signed a waiver of ignorance therefore they can't be prosecuted...

But seriously..you're 100% correct, ignorance is not a defence.

People claiming the players are victims is just ridiculous. They're at a sports club, not being treated for an illness, of course you enquire in to what you're being administered.

But don't you get it,,,they signed a waiver of ignorance therefore they can't be prosecuted...

But seriously..you're 100% correct, ignorance is not a defence.

People claiming the players are victims is just ridiculous. They're at a sports club, not being treated for an illness, of course you inquire in to what you're being administered.

You might enquire, but you might be lied to.

Personally I expect there is a spectrum of culpability amongst the players, with the so-called leaders and older players being at one end and a naive 18 year old at the other.

Sure, but how much denial has gone on, and how much obvious devious avoidance, since the story broke, almost TWO YEARS AGO? No obligation to think about it, still, do you think? Time slides them all to the one end, on that spectrum...

You might enquire, but you might be lied to.

Personally I expect there is a spectrum of culpability amongst the players, with the so-called leaders and older players being at one end and a naive 18 year old at the other.

The thing is it is drummed into every single player who comes into the AFL that whatever goes in their body is their responsibility. They can't claim ignorance or they were duped, it is their responsibility and they have the ability to query things through various channels. How many of them went to the AFLPA?

Sure, but how much denial has gone on, and how much obvious devious avoidance, since the story broke, almost TWO YEARS AGO? No obligation to think about it, still, do you think? Time slides them all to the one end, on that spectrum...

Yes they do slide somewhat to that end. However once you have been deceived or even worse, self-deceived, it is hard to back out.

The thing is it is drummed into every single player who comes into the AFL that whatever goes in their body is their responsibility. They can't claim ignorance or they were duped, it is their responsibility and they have the ability to query things through various channels. How many of them went to the AFLPA?

Yes all true, but I'm sure these 18 year old blokes, many of whom are not the sharpest knife in the block, sat attentively and took it all in just as they did in school.

BTW, I'm all for the players getting clobbered, but some more than others perhaps if the tribunal can reasonably do that, and all far less than Hird and co.

The thing is it is drummed into every single player who comes into the AFL that whatever goes in their body is their responsibility. They can't claim ignorance or they were duped, it is their responsibility and they have the ability to query things through various channels. How many of them went to the AFLPA?

If your doctor tells you to take a medication you take it.

The same goes here, the club doctor said ok, the fitness staff said all good and the clubs sports scientist said all good. How many more people did they need to ask?

It's the club and it's administration that should burn, not the players.

The only difference between an essendon play and a melbourne player is where they were called out on draft day. Our guys would have done the same thing if our clubs medical and fitness staff told them to take something. Obviously now that would question it, but in 2012 they would have trusted the clubs staff

(Assuming the players did indeed take a banned substance) Enough discussion on whether the players are victims or cheats. Both cases are possible but regardless, the outcomes are the same.

It is a player's RESPONSIBILITY to know what they are taking, regardless of the advice they received.

It is the player's RESPONSIBILITY to ensure that advice is correct.

The players failed in that responsibility and now must wear the punishment.

There is no way to prove the difference between wilful ignorance and naive trust thus the responsibility is the player's, and the player's alone.

If your doctor tells you to take a medication you take it.

But apparently he didn't tell them to take it, he says he wrote a letter trying to stop it it. Then did no more.

But the point is, this injecting program wasn't sanctioned by the club Doctor, nor administered by him, nor were the injections given by him.

End of that excuse, even though it isn't one under doping law.

Met some Essendon supporters today, who apparently have contact with the players QC, who has allegedly told them there is no evidence and the players will get off.

I have taken the oppositie view, from a position of far less knowledge than him and am not changing my mind.

Met some Essendon supporters today, who apparently have contact with the players QC, who has allegedly told them there is no evidence and the players will get off.

I have taken the oppositie view, from a position of far less knowledge than him and am not changing my mind.

You would have to wonder what the former judge Garry Downes was looking at then.

Met some Essendon supporters today, who apparently have contact with the players QC, who has allegedly told them there is no evidence and the players will get off.

I have taken the oppositie view, from a position of far less knowledge than him and am not changing my mind.

I tend to agree.

I cannot believe this has gotten through ASADA, a retired Judge and the Anti-Doping Rule Violation Panel who have all concluded that sufficient evidence existed against the players, to be brought to trial, but that there is actually "no evidence".

seriously, what do you expect a player's qc to say? especially in public

If Essendon has done nothing wrong why are they not crying out or demanding Danks, Charters and the co testify on their behalf at the hearing........ Likewise if Danks and Charters have done nothing wrong now is the time for them to stand up and prove it.

If Essendon has done nothing wrong why are they not crying out or demanding Danks, Charters and the co testify on their behalf at the hearing........ Likewise if Danks and Charters have done nothing wrong now is the time for them to stand up and prove it.

far too logical

seriously, what do you expect a player's qc to say? especially in public

Actually, I expect him to publicly say nothing.

all beside the point, too - Essendon's position is that they will not be put on trial.

If Essendon has done nothing wrong why are they not crying out or demanding Danks, Charters and the co testify on their behalf at the hearing........ Likewise if Danks and Charters have done nothing wrong now is the time for them to stand up and prove it.

If Danks could really get them off by saying something like, "yes I got TB4, but decided not to use it on AFL players and instead had them injected with vitamins", then why hasn't he?

If Essendon has done nothing wrong why are they not crying out or demanding Danks, Charters and the co testify on their behalf at the hearing........ Likewise if Danks and Charters have done nothing wrong now is the time for them to stand up and prove it.

True. And they go to court to stop these guys from having to appear at the tribunal and will then whinge the evidence should be thrown out because they can't cross-examine them there. Mind boggling that they aren't crucified for this behaviour in the media.

If Essendon has done nothing wrong why are they not crying out or demanding Danks, Charters and the co testify on their behalf at the hearing........ Likewise if Danks and Charters have done nothing wrong now is the time for them to stand up and prove it.

Balance of power, they're all aiming nukes (incriminating info) at each other. If one fires they all fire . . then it's the old cold war scenario of MAD 'Mutually assured destruction!'

There is nothing so beautiful as a nuclear bomb! anon

I think it is interesting, with all the words talked about this on Demonland (and I am as guilty as anyone), that at the end of the day it comes down to the law. However much the various parties may posture (and there has been serious posturing in this case), what I believe will happen is that there will be just penalties given out at the end of the day.

The bully boys who have been largely responsible for this farse to continue for so long will get their days in court, but at the end of it all justice will be done.

The Press, who in my view have been totally unprincipled in this (with a few very honourable exceptions) will go away with their tails between their legs , but don't count on any personal reflection. It won't happen. In a just world the two or three major protagonists in the Press, should lose their jobs (in any other profession they would on the grounds of incompetence), but don't count on it.

Let us see what eventuates, but in a country where lying seems to be seen as smart in public life, I, anyway, have high hopes that the international processes to do with drugs in sport will do their job, and those responsible for the ESSENDON disgrace will be punished big time.