Time is up for some players

[watchtheeyes 1,263]

because he hasnt shown any capacity to be SOLID !!!

Rubbish. He has been more than solid.

[Guest]

keep going.im not talking about slagging off.

Even when asked about player 36 on the list,all coaches say they are required/loved/coming along/should be ok.

Ross Lyon on Colin Sylvia.

[beelzebub 22,519]

I think his year has been solid. With the continuing improvement that this 23 year old, I repeat 23 Year old has shown under Roos, I have little doubt he will be a very solid player for many years to come.

may i say....we have very DIFFERENT ideals about SOLID !!

[ManDee 7,093]

may i say....we have very DIFFERENT ideals about SOLID !!

As may be obvious, I am a Watts supporter.

However I do not think that I could call his performances solid.

As a character and human being I think he most probably is a solid person.

I expect more from him and believe we will get it ( a la Goddard) He is worth more than pick 20.

I would not swap him for a pick. I would only consider a player.

[Steve13 457]

That's ok we can disagree.

Go to footywire and compare Watts's stats at 23 to many of the now stars of the comp when they were 23 and I think you will be surprised.

[beelzebub 22,519]

That's ok we can disagree.

Go to footywire and compare Watts's stats at 23 to many of the now stars of the comp when they were 23 and I think you will be surprised.

Im not a man for stats Steve..as often they are irrelevant.. someone kicks a ball, someone handballs. There are so many nuances as to what effect and value any of those have to me they are simply numbers that get bandies around like lollies.

I look at the game and notice a player falling over, making ineffectual tackles being late to a play, not liking being meat in a sandwich . I take away from these things whether a player is fair dinkum or not. It, to me its about skills per se it what you can or will do with them.. Watts unfortunately makes a messy meal of them often.

Sometimes things just dont pan out... I am beginning to think he's one.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,534]

McKenzie

Clisby

Kent

Blease

Strauss

Garland

Pedersen

Nicholson

Evans

Grimes

Tapscott

Spencer

Bail

M Jones

Terlich

Fitzpatrick

Michie

Trengove

Toumpas

Riley

Every single one of these players have been in the system for at least a year and have offered less than Watts, can we please move on from this conversation... he's going nowhere.

And don't give me the currency comment. We're going to have plenty of high draft picks to work with this year.

Love the use of the expression "he's going nowhere". It allows you to later claim that you meant:

"He's hopeless. He's not moved from when we first got him. There's been no development in this kid"

or

"He's fantastic. He's a required player and not going to leave us to go to another club."

[rjay 24,099]

The last 13 pick 20's Back to 2000

Leslie

Broomhead

Crozier

Pitt

Fyfe

Swift

Notte

Hislop

Bower

Polo

Butler

Minson

Elstone

The odds are not one in six, they are much worse.

Going a bit early on Broomhead, looks like he will be a player. Minson was AA wasn't he?

[watchtheeyes 1,263]

That's ok we can disagree.

Go to footywire and compare Watts's stats at 23 to many of the now stars of the comp when they were 23 and I think you will be surprised.

This doesn't fill me with confidence:

Jack Watts Name Colin Sylvia Melbourne Demons Team Fremantle Dockers Defender, Forward Position Midfield, Forward 92 Career Games 163 Sandringham Dragons Origin Bendigo Pioneers March 26, 1991 Date of Birth November 8, 1985 23yr 4mth Age Turned 23 in 2008 196cm Height 186cm 88kg Weight 86kg 2008 National Draft Last Drafted In 2003 National Draft Round 1, Pick #1 Last Draft Position Priority Pick #3 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Melbourne Demons 2014 Stats for Season 2008 19 Games 18 9.2 Kicks Per Game 10.9 8.4 Handballs Per Game 6.8 17.5 Disposals Per Game 17.8 5.0 Marks Per Game 6.6 0.6 Goals Per Game 0.9 0.4 Behinds Per Game 0.5 2.6 Tackles Per Game 2.8 0.1 Hitouts Per Game 1.3 0.6 Frees For Per Game 0.8 0.8 Frees Against Per Game 0.9

Disclaimer: I am a Watts defender.

[watchtheeyes 1,263]

This doesn't fill me with confidence:

Jack Watts Name Colin Sylvia Melbourne Demons Team Fremantle Dockers Defender, Forward Position Midfield, Forward 92 Career Games 163 Sandringham Dragons Origin Bendigo Pioneers March 26, 1991 Date of Birth November 8, 1985 23yr 4mth Age Turned 23 in 2008 196cm Height 186cm 88kg Weight 86kg 2008 National Draft Last Drafted In 2003 National Draft Round 1, Pick #1 Last Draft Position Priority Pick #3 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Melbourne Demons 2014 Stats for Season 2008 19 Games 18 9.2 Kicks Per Game 10.9 8.4 Handballs Per Game 6.8 17.5 Disposals Per Game 17.8 5.0 Marks Per Game 6.6 0.6 Goals Per Game 0.9 0.4 Behinds Per Game 0.5 2.6 Tackles Per Game 2.8 0.1 Hitouts Per Game 1.3 0.6 Frees For Per Game 0.8 0.8 Frees Against Per Game 0.9

Disclaimer: I am a Watts defender.

Well that didn't paste how I was hoping:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=12&pid1=3107&tid2=9&pid2=1383&type=A&fid1=O&fid2=O

[ManDee 7,093]

Going a bit early on Broomhead, looks like he will be a player. Minson was AA wasn't he?

You should compare Watts to Minson at same age or current season. Watts comes out well on top in stats terms except hit outs. Max Gawn looks better this season to Minson. And while we look at Minsons stats try 56.9% effective disposals Even Jordie McKenzie is 76.7% effective.

Minson is a player that the Bulldogs fans pull their hair out about. I would not swap Watts for Minson. Agree too early on Broomhead mind you if you compare at the same age as Watts, Watts kills him on stats.

[nutbean 8,837]

Im not a man for stats Steve..as often they are irrelevant.. someone kicks a ball, someone handballs. There are so many nuances as to what effect and value any of those have to me they are simply numbers that get bandies around like lollies.

I look at the game and notice a player falling over, making ineffectual tackles being late to a play, not liking being meat in a sandwich . I take away from these things whether a player is fair dinkum or not. It, to me its about skills per se it what you can or will do with them.. Watts unfortunately makes a messy meal of them often.

Sometimes things just dont pan out... I am beginning to think he's one.

I am a big one for stats if used in conjunction with your eyes - and your eyes ain't telling you lies.

(its a bit like - give me 25 Pendlebury disposals over 40 Swan disposals any day of the week)

[beelzebub 22,519]

Well that didn't paste how I was hoping:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=12&pid1=3107&tid2=9&pid2=1383&type=A&fid1=O&fid2=O

never does...lol gotta reformat it all

[Beats 190]

interesting comparison , Goddard that is. were you able to guarantee a similar outcome , i.e same change in demeanor and output ( ne effect ) then wonderful. I Dont recall Goddard ever being about to be bounced around as such just that he was lazy and half hearted at times. Happy to be corrected

The difference with Goddard is that he was always a competitive beast/ had mongrel.

That's ok we can disagree.

Go to footywire and compare Watts's stats at 23 to many of the now stars of the comp when they were 23 and I think you will be surprised.

I wasn't surprised in the slightest, Footywire doesn't copy well to this format, but he doesn't stack up well against many.

Based on this season (which I think we all agree has been Watts best season...) Watts has the following average stats:

17.5 disposals, 5.0 marks, 2.6 tackles, 0.6 goals

Stars of the comp at the same age:

Goddard - 23.4 disposals, 7.9 marks, 2.0 tackles, 0.5 goals

Dangerfield - 23.3 disposals, 4.2 marks, 3.2 tackles, 1.6 goals

Rockliff - 27.4 disposals, 4.5 marks, 5.1 tackles, 0.3 goals

Gibbs - 21.9 disposals, 5.2 marks, 4.1 tackles, 0.4 goals

Judd - 25.9 disposals, 2.6 marks, 4.9 tackles, 1.3 goals

Pendlebury - 29.7 disposals, 4.2 marks, 6.0 tackles, 1.0 goal

At the same age Goddard and Gibbs were playing similar roles/ positions and are probably the best comparisons of those I could be bothered to research.

[beelzebub 22,519]

The difference with Goddard is that he was always a competitive beast/ had mongrel.

Well that was my view.. He ( BJ ) was just bone lazy often in his early years. Jack isnt...just ineffectual

I was intrigued by the comparison though

and re tackles.... If I was applying any form of quality assessment to Watt's tackles I wouldnt even record half of them !!

Edited August 12, 2014 by beelzebub

[nutbean 8,837]

The difference with Goddard is that he was always a competitive beast/ had mongrel.

nope - he wasn't - soft as butter in his early years.

Lots of outside stuff and he would tease with talent but wouldn't put himself on the line.

StKilda supporters were baying for blood and wanted him traded out ( the lots that I know).

Something clicked and voila - the very tense uptight competitive animal we see today.

I have the same hopes for Watts ( you're a fool Nutbean, a fool !)

[beelzebub 22,519]

nope - he wasn't - soft as butter in his early years.

Lots of outside stuff and he would tease with talent but wouldn't put himself on the line.

StKilda supporters were baying for blood and wanted him traded out ( the lots that I know).

Something clicked and voila - the very tense uptight competitive animal we see today.

I have the same hopes for Watts ( you're a fool Nutbean, a fool !)

maybe a bit of both Nut... some rellos of his a few of us came across years ago up watching Berrigan suggested it was a bit of an application thing with BJ.. What is particularly right is that he turned a corner...big time.

A fool ? often think we all are

[Tatu 416]

I should have known this was a Watts bashing thread by the title...

Personally id move on others in our team before Watts... Watts has currency and he'll have that for a few years yet, but i would be more inclined to get rid of the players we have that don't have currency... Its no good get rid of talented players, if you keep list cloggers...

I understand the need in modern footy, to be ruthless with the list... But as a club, we can't go from MFC ruthless to Collingwood ruthless in a couple of seasons... Collingwood can afford to be more ruthless because of their off field power... Its a lot easier replacing players on your list when you have the best recruiting team in the country, the AFL in your pocket and more than half the competitions players want to play for you... Have you ever wondered how Collingwood always seems to have a youngster, who is a step a head of the rest? Like Langdon... Nod, nod.. wink, wink... They've been per selecting for years...

As far as Watts ever being any good? Surely the early rounds performances of Dunn and Pedersen, have shown people here how quick a player can change how he is viewed... Watts is only 23, i wouldn't be writing him off yet... He will be a massively different player at 25/26, then what he is now...

Edited August 12, 2014 by tatu

[beelzebub 22,519]

I should have known this was a Watts bashing thread by the title...

........

As far as Watts ever being any good? Surely the early rounds performances of Dunn and Pedersen, have shown people here how quick a player can change how he is viewed... Watts is only 23, i wouldn't be writing him off yet... He will be a massively different player at 25/26, then what he is now...

Some wish to debate Watts in the context of progress. That's not bashing it's simply observational critique.A spade is a spade. If you dont like it then thats about you.

Dunn and Pedersen always had some moxy, some mongrel in them.It was just ill directed .I dont think Jack would even know what either word was in reference to. Again, simply observational. As Roos would remind, It is what it is.

[Radar Detector 1,339]

Gunston wins his own ball. Enough said.

No more than Watts does.

[nutbean 8,837]

No more than Watts does.

Actually - yes - more than Watts does. 40% of Gunstons possessions are contested. 31% of Watts are contested.

But don't go by stats - just watch and you will see that Watts game is based around him being the outlet. Gunston is more your hit up forward.

[rpfc 27,657]

Some wish to debate Watts in the context of progress. That's not bashing it's simply observational critique.A spade is a spade. If you dont like it then thats about you.

Dunn and Pedersen always had some moxy, some mongrel in them.It was just ill directed .I dont think Jack would even know what either word was in reference to. Again, simply observational. As Roos would remind, It is what it is.

Yes, Dunn and Pedersen are more comfortable with the physical side of the game (although we all remember the aftermath of Pedersen's first game do we not?).

But that isn't everything in footy is it?

Watts is ahead of Dunn at the same stage in their career - some should stop right now and drink that in a little bit - and Watts has shown more with regard to skill execution and decision making and hard running than many, and all of those have improved markedly over the previous years.

[Maggot 1977 263]

I see Blease was suffering " Gastro" on the weekend and didn't play. Seems his game against the Lions gave everyone the Sh*ts including his own body. I will be happy when he is delist, nothing annoys me more than blokes who have the talent and weapons but choose through weakness not to use them. I'm sure his will be a " woe is me " story at the end of the year.

[beelzebub 22,519]

Yes, Dunn and Pedersen are more comfortable with the physical side of the game (although we all remember the aftermath of Pedersen's first game do we not?).

But that isn't everything in footy is it?

Watts is ahead of Dunn at the same stage in their career - some should stop right now and drink that in a little bit - and Watts has shown more with regard to skill execution and decision making and hard running than many, and all of those have improved markedly over the previous years.

are you familiar with the Wizard of Oz Rp ?

[jnrmac 19,393]

No more than Watts does.

The stats don't back you up. And my observations would certainly disagree with you.

And you could always run a poll to see who here would prefer Gunston or watts.....