Post Match Discussion - Round 16

[Lucifers Hero 39,732]

maybe we have to play Strauss. If he only gets four kicks, but they are not turnovers and they do reach one of our forwards, maybe that is an improvement.

And, in the annual report, the loss of Clark and Hogan surely has got to be the over-riding story of the year. That was a very cruel blow, when - as Roos says - everything needed to go right.

Not only the loss of Hogan and Clarke but Roos was also planning for Watts to become his elite midfielder ala Pendlebury. Instead Roos is now looking for another key forward and an elite midfileder to draft/trade in. He brought in Georgiou to shore up the backline so he effectively had all the bases covered. Now back to the drawing board somewhat.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

No Cross, no Melbourne.

[beelzebub 23,342]

Must confess ive never really understood the ideal of voting in a captain.

I would have thought the coach and fd best placed to chooe someone who best represented what they were endeavouring to construct as a team and who personified a leader of it.

I.e those that had been around the block and know the requirements etc choosing someone not the underlings.

Platoons dont PICK their sergeant. Selection comes from above not below...surely.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,206]

I'm not attempting to defend his 'efforts' - though as AoB rightly says above, it's not effort that the issue, it's skill. I recognise that he makes too many mistakes. I see that that miss last night hurt the team.

What I don't agree with is the way he gets singled out. I raised the Tyson point not to single out Tyson, but to make the point that there are many others who make terrible mistakes, none of whom get raised on here. What about Bernie? He's made several really bad kicks out of defence in recent weeks that have directly resulted in opposition goals. Again - nothing gets said. Only the Grimes errors are discussed.

As for being a terrible captain - he's been 'voted' in by his peers for three consecutive years and endorsed by two different coaches, at least one of whom clearly knows a bit or two about leadership. The club must think he does something right.

Tyson and Vince dont do it every week though and at least once each this year have been BOG (probably twice each).

[beelzebub 23,342]

Edit

Edited July 6, 2014 by beelzebub

[beelzebub 23,342]

No Cross, no Melbourne.

at least we know now the breed of player we need.

He shouldn't be as sorely missed as he is. Again...goes to the list

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,165]

I'm not attempting to defend his 'efforts' - though as AoB rightly says above, it's not effort that the issue, it's skill. I recognise that he makes too many mistakes. I see that that miss last night hurt the team.

What I don't agree with is the way he gets singled out. I raised the Tyson point not to single out Tyson, but to make the point that there are many others who make terrible mistakes, none of whom get raised on here. What about Bernie? He's made several really bad kicks out of defence in recent weeks that have directly resulted in opposition goals. Again - nothing gets said. Only the Grimes errors are discussed.

As for being a terrible captain - he's been 'voted' in by his peers for three consecutive years and endorsed by two different coaches, at least one of whom clearly knows a bit or two about leadership. The club must think he does something right.

Many players make mistakes. Grimes seems to make more errors that directly cost or cause a goal. It is also the fact that other players are given more rope because they are younger (see Tyson, Viney) or less experienced (see Terlich).

[Sir Why You Little 37,027]

I did say before the game it would be ugly.

It was.

The club has spirit and belief...But we are not strong enough yet

Strength will come from drafting real players not long term projects.

Frank Grimes will never be anything but average.

Should never have relinquished number 16.

Doubt we will win again this year.

[demoniac 1,333]

I did say before the game it would be ugly.

It was.

The club has spirit and belief...But we are not strong enough yet

Strength will come from drafting real players not long term projects.

Frank Grimes will never be anything but average.

Should never have relinquished number 16.

Doubt we will win again this year.

I would be concerned if you thought we would win another game this year. Would disrupt Demonland's equilibrium!

[Sir Why You Little 37,027]

I would be concerned if you thought we would win another game this year. Would disrupt Demonland's equilibrium!

Patience be Grasshopper.

So many draft picks were wasted. We have to pay a price before we can grow...

[titan_uranus 24,992]

I'm not attempting to defend his 'efforts' - though as AoB rightly says above, it's not effort that the issue, it's skill. I recognise that he makes too many mistakes. I see that that miss last night hurt the team.

What I don't agree with is the way he gets singled out. I raised the Tyson point not to single out Tyson, but to make the point that there are many others who make terrible mistakes, none of whom get raised on here. What about Bernie? He's made several really bad kicks out of defence in recent weeks that have directly resulted in opposition goals. Again - nothing gets said. Only the Grimes errors are discussed.

As for being a terrible captain - he's been 'voted' in by his peers for three consecutive years and endorsed by two different coaches, at least one of whom clearly knows a bit or two about leadership. The club must think he does something right.

I haven't seen the game so I can't commemt on last night, but I can say that the clanger stat is, like the disposal efficiency stat, very flawed.

His miss from 10 metres, for example, is not a clanger.

That to one side, your point about Grimes always being singled out is pertinent for a couple of reasons. First, you're right in that others seem to fly under the radar in that regard. It is clear that we have far too many players who don't have the skill needed to play AFL. Second, though, it asks the question 'why Grimes?'. Partly it's because Demonlanders love to havw scapegoats. But, IMO, partly it's because other players do more to even their performances out. So Viney, Vince, Tyson and N Jones all make errors too, but unlike Grimes we see a lot of positives from their games. Also, I find that Grimes and Terlich, for two examples, make hugely crucial mistakes, ones that cost us more than others. So I notice them a lot more.

What I'm trying to say is that Grimes cops it a bit more than others partly deservedly.

[beelzebub 23,342]

Probably why Grimes cops it is because hes a captain. This is what we want by way of example and leadership ?

This what we want players to aspire to. Crappy decisions..woeful kicking and missing 'gimme's'

By way of his captaincy he is burdened with expectations. He often duds us.

[Sir Why You Little 37,027]

Grimes appointed Captain.

Hahahaha...Why?

Has always been my reaction.

[Redleg 40,894]

We went in too tall with Maxy for the 2nd time and got punished as expected. He was poor as well.

IMO it was the perfect time to play Blease as we needed run to break lines and perhaps kick a nice bomb and JKH for a bit of crumbing. Roos has obviously marked Blease's card and it is a pity that despite good games for casey he hasn't been given a single chance under him.

It is early to call but I don't think Barry will make it.

Our early part of the game was great and if Dawes with his 2 shots and Grimes with his gimme, had converted, we could have been ahead at half time. That would have kept our enthusiasm up and it would have been closer in the end than 10 goals. I actually felt the players sigh when Grimes missed. He had a poor night giving away the first turnover, not bodying Mzungo to stop his mark and then goal from 40m, not 5m like Grimes had and then he topped off his horror night with a handball to Pearce for a walk in goal, which had Pearce laughing.

We are on the right track under Roos but need more skill and pace in the side and therefore we need to get a few good mids from the draft and trading.

Those with poor skill have to go, as they let us down time and time again. IMO we also need another KPF to help Jesse and Dawes, another key back and a rookie ruckman that can be developed or a mature one that is not getting a go elsewhere. That might sound silly given Jamar's form but he is in his 30's or close to it and our others look ordinary ATM.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Redleg

[Deecisive 1,709]

I dont think playing Maxy was necessarily the wrong thing to do they had Sandilands and Pav in their team selection so putting peterson up against Sandilands was probably a bit too much. I believe the problem we had is that we did not play a brand of football that allowed us to use his height to advantage. our ball movement is pitifully slow, our players first instincts are to stop and look backwards and sideways. when we did move it quickly we actually got a couple of our very few goals.

There has been a lot of criticism of Dawes, the guy is trying his hardest, he has to contend with multiple players on him ever week, being manhandled and rarely getting a free and p*ss poor delivery. Yes he sometimes runs into the wrong spot but that is because he is running himself ragged leading up and being ignored, leading back, and being ignored, etc....

We play an extra man around the stoppages and oppositions play an extra man in defense, we need that extra man at the stoppages to make up for the lack of skill of our midfield, we pay for that when we send it forward because we have the opposition sitting there with extra numbers, usually someone trying to hold out Dawes and any other forwards who may have stayed back (not that that happens often) and their spare man in defense cleans up, from there they switch and create an overlap that has our players chasing tail all the way up the field. we cannot kick goals if we cannot get the ball down there quick enough to an even contest, our players are not that good enough at this time.

Dawes needs help, he needs a fast crumber near him all day long, someone that does not go too far from him so that he can benefit from spoils and can put pressure on the opposition backs.

Skill errors have been a highlight of our games all year long, with a number of games where the buik of the oppositions score has come from our turn overs. Grimes and Dawes should not have missed the simple shots from 15-20 meters out. Instead of dropping them send them back to the old school practice it, kick it from the same spot 50 times in a row, you miss then the count restarts, then maybe move them back 10 meters, rinse and repeat. handpassing practice should also be undertaken in a similar fashion, practice, practice, practice basic skills.

[chook fowler 19,458]

I know Grimes is copping a lot at the moment but he's struggling to make our best 22 let alone be a Captain. Doubt he would get a game inmost other teams. Jones should be the stand alone and Grimes relieved to let him concentrate on footy. Maybe he is paying the price that Trenners paid and the outcome should be the same. It's a bit irksome seeing him in post match interviews bemoaning silly mistakes and poor turnovers when he is a part of the problem.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Tyson's played 28 games. Grimes has played 83 games and yes, when you have © next to your name, more should be expected of you. Further, when you get the ball more, there's a higher chance you'll turn it over more.

When your captain is the one making horrible decisions (and it's not just his clangers - it's his ability to consistently putting team mates under pressure with dumb football), it must deflating for the rest of the team. That's not leadership. That's the opposite, IMO. He might be a great professional off the field, but he has severe limitations on the field.

Also, the nature of Tyson's possessions are that he is nearly always surrounded by extreme pressure, much more so than Grimes

[daisycutter 29,613]

let's face it. we just got a bunch of incredibly dumb footballers

we need mids, good kickers and lots more brains

[P-man 13,366]

If Grimes wasn't captain, the conversation would be about whether we keep him at all. I think that alone says something about his merit as captain. It worries me that a player of his ability has managed to become a given on the team sheet. He shouldn't be.

Bottom line is that the list badly needs another turn over. You can put lipstick on a pig..etc. Numerous players simply are not good enough. In that's sense, the end of the season can't come fast enough.

[beelzebub 23,342]

Pman... it still ought to be !!!

[Satyriconhome 10,830]

Demonland - a group of incredibly dumb posters, love a loss, brings out the best, listen to Roos, he know exactly where we are at.

I watched the game at the Sporting Globe in Richmond, expected us to hold them for quite a while, then they would draw away and probably win by 5 or 6 goals, was disappointed it blew out

A few comments of my own, we need 22 to play their role really really well or we will get results like this

Down last night, Grimes (his one percenters again overshadowed by mistakes, Terlich, trying to hold his place, 'tried too hard, Garland, he is out of form, Gawn , use your bloody size, Howe, got lost in transition, Salem, needs a break...there were others

[Maldonboy38 6,397]

Three constant issues need to be addressed across the list:

1) We lack class and it shows every time one of our also-rans comes up against a player like Fyfe, Ablett, Pendelbury, Buddy. We are seriously more of a good VFL side than an AFL side trying to combat the likes of Sydney, Fre, Hawks etc... We can do it for 2 quarters, and a few games for 3, but we cannot combat class contest-by-contest for 4 quarters. Players like Watts, Toupas, Salem, JKH need to become our class players but they feel years away.

2) Our kicking skills when under no pressure are deeply flawed. Our really good ball users like Toumpas and Watts just don't play hard enough for long enough to impact a game with their foot skills, especially at critical moments. Grimes, McDonald, Terlich, Tyson, Viney and Bail are simply crap kicks who also happen to be necessary components in our 22. I don't understand the root of the skills problem and I don't know how to fix it, but the big fear is that even Roos so far has not been able to fix it.

3) Once again, we lose due to what WE do when WE have the ball. Our decision making through half-back and half forward, whether it is a defensive push or an attacking one, only works 60% of the time. We decide to slow down when we should run, we decide to handball to a stationary player, we decide not to take the first option, we decide to handball backwards 10 times in a row but never get a free possession out of it.

My Demonland experience is feeling like Groundhog Day. After each game I am feeling the same things, typing the same things and yet nothing ever changes. Once again I get to July and my season is basically over.

[Sir Why You Little 37,027]

Demonland - a group of incredibly dumb posters, love a loss, brings out the best, listen to Roos, he know exactly where we are at.

I watched the game at the Sporting Globe in Richmond, expected us to hold them for quite a while, then they would draw away and probably win by 5 or 6 goals, was disappointed it blew out

A few comments of my own, we need 22 to play their role really really well or we will get results like this

Down last night, Grimes (his one percenters again overshadowed by mistakes, Terlich, trying to hold his place, 'tried too hard, Garland, he is out of form, Gawn , use your bloody size, Howe, got lost in transition, Salem, needs a break...there were others

No one is allowed to vent while Satyr is about.

Our list of cloggers get paid as much as the top 4 sides...Most will not improve.

[beelzebub 23,342]

No one is allowed to vent while Satyr is about.

Our list of cloggers get paid as much as the top 4 sides...Most will not improve.

WYL

I think Saty appreciates our predicament and acknowledges our best 22 isnt a decent 22 , well not for AFL

[Sir Why You Little 37,027]

WYL

I think Saty appreciates our predicament and acknowledges our best 22 isnt a decent 22 , well not for AFL

i do hope so for his own sake.

BP & Schwab recriuted a bunch of basketballers. There reading of where AFL was heading was just so far off the mark it is laughable.

This upcoming draft is going to be a huge offload.

We only have PR for 2 more years.