Post Match Discussion - Round 12

[deanox 9,897]

This is where I disagree.

McKenzie, Michie and Riley are midfield depth. They are not class.

Strauss and Clisby are back 6 depth, they are not class.

Toumpas, Kent, Salem and JKH are class, they are not depth, they just haven't developed. Undeveloped class like these guys are not depth players.

We will not draft players who don't have the potential not to be class and we may look to trade out some lower end depth to speculate on class in the draft.

Ok I see what the misunderstanding is. In my mind anyone not in the best 22 on the list is depth. I.e. Anyone, even if they are depth with class. So if we draft 3 young guns who spend all next season at Casey, they are depth. They can come in and chop others or when needed.

I am happy for our non best 22 ("depth"), to be under developed class. And I agree the problem is that at the moment we don't have any real depth. Any changes effectively make us a weaker team. There is no class on the fringe (except maybe Toumpas and Kent), so therefore we don't really have any depth.

Otherwise all clubs have the equal amount of depth; it's a factor of how many are on your list.

[Scoop Junior 3,435]

I was hoping with a tall forward line we could have exposed them a little more than we did, but all credit to their key backs who defended very well. Pedo lstarted really well and looked ready for a day out but we just couldn't get a mark inside 50 when it mattered. Interestingly it was Russian who was subbed out. I think Max is definately improving, but it will be interesting to see whether they go with the two ruckmen again for next week.

We had them covered for height in just about every forward match-up (at times it was Keefe v Gawn, Frost v Dawes, Langdon and Seedman v Watts and Pederson etc.), but in trying to expose a team for height down back you need to be careful not to expose your own team for a lack of pace and mobility. I think we went too far yesterday, especially against a good running side like the Pies who have quick ball carriers down back.

If we retain a Dawes-Frawley-Pederson-Watts forward set up then one of Gawn and Jamar should not play. Jamar as the better ruckman at present gets the nod for me. It's not that Gawny played badly yesterday, it's more a case of his presence throwing our balance out. You cannot have four talls in your forward line and then play two ruckmen on top of that. In today's footy I think you really need to go with one specialist ruckman and a back up option who can play as a tall forward. If they want to play Gawn and Jamar then one of the other tall forwards needs to be dropped. But for me, I'd currently go with Jamar in the ruck and Pederson as the back up ruckman / third tall forward.

[Akum 2,660]

We had them covered for height in just about every forward match-up (at times it was Keefe v Gawn, Frost v Dawes, Langdon and Seedman v Watts and Pederson etc.), but in trying to expose a team for height down back you need to be careful not to expose your own team for a lack of pace and mobility. I think we went too far yesterday, especially against a good running side like the Pies who have quick ball carriers down back.

If we retain a Dawes-Frawley-Pederson-Watts forward set up then one of Gawn and Jamar should not play. Jamar as the better ruckman at present gets the nod for me. It's not that Gawny played badly yesterday, it's more a case of his presence throwing our balance out. You cannot have four talls in your forward line and then play two ruckmen on top of that. In today's footy I think you really need to go with one specialist ruckman and a back up option who can play as a tall forward. If they want to play Gawn and Jamar then one of the other tall forwards needs to be dropped. But for me, I'd currently go with Jamar in the ruck and Pederson as the back up ruckman / third tall forward.

Totally agree with you. I think the problem is that neither Jamar nor Gawn can last a full game at the moment due to lack of fitness (in turn due to injuries over the preseason).

[Nasher 33,607]

Totally agree with you. I think the problem is that neither Jamar nor Gawn can last a full game at the moment due to lack of fitness (in turn due to injuries over the preseason).

They need not; Pedersen rucks adequately to give the players 5 minutes a quarter rest. I think the bigger issue with Gawn is that he needs more than that.

I do not see the hurry with Gawn. I love him - he's reasonably athletic for his size and he gets involved, and he's just so damn big. He's 21 and is years off his best though, and for every game where he has an impact, he has another where he offers nothing. I think for every game we play him we're rolling the dice as there's a 50/50 chance we'll get nothing from him; in a side that is already too top heavy, it just seems silly. Let him spend the next couple of years playing heaps of uninterrupted footy in the VFL and build his engine up, and whip him out when he's really ready to impact consistently.

[deanox 9,897]

If we drop Gawn for balance now, who goes out when Hogan is fit?

[old dee 23,772]

If we drop Gawn for balance now, who goes out when Hogan is fit?

Almost anyone you can think of

[DeeZee 7,361]

We also had no crumbers.

I lost count count the amount of times the ball was punched loose in our forward fifty only to see a Collingwood player scoop it up.

[deanox 9,897]

Almost anyone you can think of

Well, given the majority of the team are "smalls" on most cases that would lead us to have the same number of kpp's as our "top heavy" side this week.

If we drop another tall for Hogan who is it? Dawes or Frawley are the only like for likes. Can't drop Pederson unless Hogan rucks.

I think Roos wanted to have:

Dawes and Hogan forward

Clark forward/ruck

Jamar ruck

At the moment Frawley is playing Hogans position. Can we play both forward?

Pederson/Gawn are fighting for the one spot if we are too top heavy.

Roos tried to make Watts a mid. Does he have space for another tall forward?

The set up now should reflect the long term game plan if it can.

[Demonland 71,284]

DEE-DAY OR NO DEE-DAY by George on The Outer

Seventy years since the Allies started the counter-attack against the might of Germany.

Fifty years since the Demons won a Premiership …

Was the Queen’s Birthday of 2014 going to be the beginning of something special, or just another re-run of the ordinary performances that have marked the past years encounters?

With an earlygoal on the scoreboard courtesy of Nathan Jones within the first thorty seconds, the supporters could have been thinking that the something special was going to happen. The first salvo in a reversal of fortune just like what D-Day represented all those years ago?

Sadly, the fans were to see only another two goals for their side in the remaining 99 or so minutes of the game. And the final score represented the lowest score the Demons had kicked against the Pies since 1960! One would have thought the ground was a mud heap, but it was exactly the opposite! The small consolation was that the Magpies themselves could only manage eight for the day.

Twelve months ago, we would have been happy with that result. However, the expectations have been raised, and with 68,000 at the game to give the Demons the experience of big time football, there should have been more to show for the day.

Still the Allied forces barely made it across the sand on the first day in France, but within months they were knocking at the door of Berlin. To hold a top four side to a paltry three goals to half time and eight goals in total was a sign of the change that has occurred at the club.

But there is simply not enough true talent there to get the side across the line when needed. Like the game against Port Adelaide it was there to be won, but there was no-one to stand up and show the way.

Yes we had plenty of contributors with the usual bevy of Jones, Vince, Cross, Jamar, Dawes, Dunn and Pedersen showing the way it needed to be done, but there are simply too many being dragged along for the ride.

The likes of Watts, Bail, Salem, Gawn, Terlich, Howe and Frawley simply did not impact the game. Yes some of them had 20 touches, but did they really have any effect on the outcome?

Sometimes the game is there to be won from a series of one-on-one contests, and to be successful it requires each and every player to do his part when it counts. Not just a contribution, but to make it count.

It is also doubly hard for an up and coming team to overcome the sheer ineptitude of the umpiring department as witnessed today. Five free kicks to Melbourne in the whole game, two of which were out-on-the-full. Even 13 to Collingwood over the course of a game is insufficient. Is there any wonder that packs of players develop and is turning the game into a variation of Rugby Union?

Why Vince was denied a goal after Jetta elected to play on from a mark was simply incomprehensible. There is no time on after a mark, and the player is perfectly entitled to play on. But then we would have to teach the umpires some simply rules of the game, and at the moment they are being taught incorrectly.

When the fans are bombarded with written examples of the rules of the game prior to the match, it only highlights that something is seriously wrong.

Pity is that the umpires weren’t the ones subject to the Power-point display pre-game, and not the fans who can read what is written down in the Rule book.

Last year we would have been happy to see a competitive side this year. That we have! We are no longer blown away on the score-board, but until we learn and are capable of putting some score-board pressure on ourselves, then the results of the past two weeks will continue.

If this was our Dee-day, then it is only the start. The darkest hours are surely behind us, but we need more small wins to be able to continue the fight ever upward. In this torrid run that we have against a series of the top sides, we are staying on the battlefield and are not being overrun. We can only bide our time, and wait for that final break-out which surely is coming …

Melbourne 1.3.9 2.4.16 3.6.24 3.10.28

Collingwood 1.2.8 3.7.25 5.10.40 8.13.61

Goals

Melbourne Howe N Jones Vince

Collingwood Beams Cloke 2 Elliott Goldsack Macaffer Pendelbury

Best

Melbourne Cross N Jones Vince Pedersen Dunn Dawes

Collingwood Young Macaffer Pendlebury Lumumba Seedsman Swan

Injuries

Melbourne Nil

Collingwood Nil

Changes

Melbourne Nil

Collingwood Jesse White (finger) replaced in selected side by Brodie Grundy

Reports

Melbourne Nil

Collingwood Nil

Umpires Fisher, Kamolins, Findlay

Crowd 66,124 at the MCG

[jnrmac 20,053]

Hey, Vince's goal should have bene allowed. Watts ran into a goal and missed. JKH fumbled a mark and they got a goal. Frawley had 4 marks punched out of his arms because he chose to mark on his chest. Ditto Salem twice.

It was a close game. Not pretty but I would have loved to see the pies had we been leading into the last quarter, The the pressure on them would have been huge. In an arm wrestle its the small things that matter. They were simply more polished than us when it counted.

As it was we held Beams pretty well, Swan pretty well Pendlebury after the 1st quarter reasonably well. We can all see where we are heading which makes a change.

We have improved

[Pennant St Dee 13,103]

Carp yourself.

Watch the game - they were jog trotting.

3 goals is not good enough.

I watched the game and 3 goals has nothing to do with Pies jog trotting, no point changing the goal posts to your argument

[beelzebub 23,313]

Im in awe of Dunns dedication to becoming a good player. Kudos. Im gobsmacked and red faced ( a lil ) as to Pedersen . I mean...wtf...lol Good on him. Im impressed with jackies (W) improved efforts and play interpretations etc. Kinda like hes starting to get it. Hes a lovely kick. That 60m pass was sublime.. pinpoint.

Dawes is just starting to find his yardage me thinks. Can we sign cross for another 3...

A few blokes got stage fright a bit I think yesterday, even if for just a while. Unfortunate that 3 or 4 had a quiet one ..all at same time. Thats life, tats footy

The scoreboard did us an injustice. The Umpires did doubly so. But you play what you gets given

2015....we'll have them !!! ( and a few others )

[Pennant St Dee 13,103]

Hey, Vince's goal should have bene allowed. Watts ran into a goal and missed. JKH fumbled a mark and they got a goal. Frawley had 4 marks punched out of his arms because he chose to mark on his chest. Ditto Salem twice.

It was a close game. Not pretty but I would have loved to see the pies had we been leading into the last quarter, The the pressure on them would have been huge. In an arm wrestle its the small things that matter. They were simply more polished than us when it counted.

As it was we held Beams pretty well, Swan pretty well Pendlebury after the 1st quarter reasonably well. We can all see where we are heading which makes a change.

We have improved

But some like to believe they cruised and didn't go beyond jogging, nothing to do with us doing a bit of homework and negating them well.

Havig said that I felt they were the better side for the second half although hitting the target with any of those fairly gettable shots in the fourth could have made it interesting

[jnrmac 20,053]

But some like to believe they cruised and didn't go beyond jogging, nothing to do with us doing a bit of homework and negating them well.

Havig said that I felt they were the better side for the second half although hitting the target with any of those fairly gettable shots in the fourth could have made it interesting

Then those saying that were not at the game.

[Lucifers Hero 39,532]

If we drop Gawn for balance now, who goes out when Hogan is fit?

Frawley! He will probably be going, going, gone by then!

Edited June 10, 2014 by Lucifer's Hero

[Pennant St Dee 13,103]

Then those saying that were not at the game.

Apparently they were and then told me to watch it. FMD have watched it twice and the Pies had a dip, their pressure at the ball was immense

[deeflog 679]

On a positive note

Great job to all the dees fan that went yesterday, we clearly outnumbered the filth supporter numbers.

The roar after jones kicked the first goal was the loudest I have heard at a dees game for many years.

Keep giving the boys that sort of support and it will be a quicker rise up the ladder

[jumbo returns 6,737]

Apparently they were and then told me to watch it. FMD have watched it twice and the Pies had a dip, their pressure at the ball was immense

Watch it thrice and focus this time.....if you can?

[jumbo returns 6,737]

Then those saying that were not at the game.

Fool.

[Undeeterred 3,118]

Yes Mr Principle.

Um, Principal, actually.

I'd not discount some learning, if I were you.

[Undeeterred 3,118]

Adam, this is pretty normal for blokes over 200cm I'd have thought. I can't think of too many men of ruckman size who are any good below their knees.

I reckon if we're relying on Max to impact contests at ground level, we're doing it a bit wrong.

Except for Mitch Clark.

[titan_uranus 24,970]

Haven't had time to read through everyone else's thoughts so I may be repeating some obvious observations here, but anyway:

Leaving aside the umpires and the standard of the game in general, that was our worst performance since West Coast. We turned it over like the Melbourne of 2013, we had no structure forward of centre, and we were far too quick to look backwards/sideways for the first three quarters. It was utterly incomprehensible how often players would first look sideways before looking forward, ending up with leads not honoured and free players gone missing (Watts was left hanging so many times it was insane).

We saw how important Tyson has been to our last month - no Tyson yesterday and our clearance work went down the toilet. With Cross doing tagging jobs it means it's Nathan Jones or nothing without Tyson. Dom's going to have to learn how to shake a tag because it's going to come more often now.

How often did we kick to a leading forward who had no separation at all on his defender? I'm not sure what the cause of this is, whether it's slow forwards, lack of bodywork, poor kicking to the lead, or something else, but the difference with Collingwood forwards yesterday in terms of separation on the lead was very noticeable.

A lot of passengers too. Salem had a shocker, which is fair enough. Gawn wasn't very useful either. Wasn't happy at all with Terlich's game, nor Dawes. Garland is also not playing well right now - I think we all love him so much that we're a bit clouded with him. He's not at the level he was at least year, not close. Part of that is of course due to his coming back from injury, but even allowing for that he's not performing well enough IMO.

On the flipside, another great shutdown job from Cross, Jetta took another step forward, Dunn beat Cloke for 90% of the game, Nathan Jones was fantastic again, Vince had a great game and I thought Grimes was markedly better than he was a fortnight ago against Richmond.

As for those external factors - the umpiring somehow gets worse by the week. That was so despicable yesterday (not in terms of us only getting 5, but the way they interpreted the rules was just mindboggling).

And on the standard of the game - we're copping a lot of flak for it being ugly, but Collingwood flooded just as much as we did, and played the same game we did for most of the day. They just did it better than we did, so we look worse.

Ultimately, a good reminder yesterday that we're not improving meteorically and that it isn't just going to happen. There is a lot of work to do and only small failures from small areas will lead to losses quite easily.

[dees189227 12,368]

I didnt find the first half. It was arm wrestle stuff. Unfortunately after hat they just got away from us.

But yes we do need a crumber, keep either JKH or Salem down there. i felt we kicked ther ball to slowly. You could see at times a player would lead or they would be free and the player with the ball just didnt notice.

Inaccurate kicking didnt help either.

Also whats with trying to mark on the chest, a few times yesterday frawley and some others went to mark it on the chest where it just got punched away. Extend the hands out.

[DemonOX 8,779]

Um, Principal, actually.

I'd not discount some learning, if I were you.

Thanks Mr Obvious.

[Undeeterred 3,118]

Thought everything PR was going to bring to our club has been on show all year.

We will master this" less than 10 goals per game" plan first,and then go on and develop more plans and ways of opening up the game when we have the skill and the players to execute that skill on a consistent basis.

I got everything i thought we would get yesterday and so far this year.

The really good part of PRs game plan is if you lack in the basics as a player,this plan will find out very quickly.{and trades begin}

On yesterdays game i thought grimes has found his spot,and a few other blokes are slowly finding their spots or they are being found out.

To be fair, that's exactly what Neeld said.