The people championing Bail's demotion are showing their football knowledge.

Comparing McKenzie to Magner, Couch and Valenti is like comparing the crack in your granny's dining room wall to the Grand Canyon.

McKenzie has won Brownlow votes for BOG on two occasions, he's played fantastic lock down roles that have been crucial to us winning games and he is a leader within the club. Why do you think he won the Coaches award for 3 years in a row?

I acknowledge that with the introduction of Vince, Tyson, Cross, Michie, Riley and Salem his place in the team is far from certain and I acknowledge that under Neeld where his focus was purely on defence his game has surely suffered.

Roos has sent him to Casey to rediscover his attacking attributes and he is regularly getting high numbers to the stage that two weeks ago he was tagged. The comments on his disposal being poor are overstated and fit in the Tom McDonald "lets wait until he makes a mistake so we can sledge him" catagory.

McKenzie may not now be a regular AFL footballer but don't depreciate his past performances because in the past when the rest of the team has thrown in the towel and gone home he's still there putting in.

At least recognize his contribution rather than a totally insulting and inappropriate comparison.

Bah Bagdad, in my day coaches awards were given to blokes who couldn't figure in the first three in the B&F and after a plethora of other awards were given out!

The coaches award is the ultimate "Try Hard" but really and ultimately has very limited skills which win games of Footy!

A pity because Jordy is a ripper bloke who has maximised everything he has but ultimately is not going to see him become an automatic selection.

Bah Bagdad, in my day coaches awards were given to blokes who couldn't figure in the first three in the B&F and after a plethora of other awards were given out!

The coaches award is the ultimate "Try Hard" but really and ultimately has very limited skills which win games of Footy!

A pity because Jordy is a ripper bloke who has maximised everything he has but ultimately is not going to see him become an automatic selection.

Your point?

He's lucky to be on an AFL List and I doubt whether he will be around next season!

He's lucky to be on an AFL List and I doubt whether he will be around next season!

Maybe so. That's not what the discussion is about.

I'm not surprised you missed it.

On McKenzie, both sides of the argument have merit. On the one hand, it's very hard to deny that he's a player with obvious deficiencies. He is as lacking offensively as any player I've ever seen. On the other hand, though, that is no barrier to him improving. If he can develop his offensive game at Casey, then there will always be room in any AFL side for someone who can add that to his hardness, tackling, work ethic and potential leadership. I personally don't think it will happen, but if it does then good on him.

Sums it up pretty well. I hope he can make it, but it's going to be a big turn around. I guess if anyones up for the challenge its McKenzie.

I put Jordie Mckenzie in the same boat as Jack Trengove of development halted early.. People are easy to forget he was leading the AFL tackles in 2010 as a young 19 year for the majority of the year and Scott West was glowing praise for him comparing to the way Daniel Cross prepared himself and played.

He was also had an attacking side to his game and was winning some big numbers in the midfield around that period. He turned down a decent offer from the Adelaide Crows after his first year with us.

Someone mentioned he is only 23 so still fairly young. I have full faith that if Roos can get a bloke like Pedersen playing good footy he will turn jordies footy around.

Maybe so. That's not what the discussion is about.

I'm not surprised you missed it.

Ok I'll recognise that he contributed in some ways to a team game, but point still remains just a tagger nothing more nothing less. Not that hard if you have a good tank to play a totally negating role. Not that hard at all.

There you go! Happy to also say that he never chucked in the towel.

As I said pity because such a nice bloke!

But we need more than what a Jordy Mc brings to our club at this stage!

I'm not surprised you don't see the BIG picture!

TALENT!!

And the lack of it we have!

My point, which you've still missed, is that Jordie is a much much better performed footballer than Magner and Couch.

Beyond that his career is uncertain.

Mckenzie is a chance to come in stop Cotchin. Stop Cotchin. Stop Richmond.

My point, which you've still missed, is that Jordie is a much much better performed footballer than Magner and Couch.

Beyond that his career is uncertain.

Most certainly agree, no doubt about it.

And look as I said Jordy has done extremely well to be on an AFL list but if you haven't got or developed more strings to the bow then your time will be short!

Most certainly agree, no doubt about it.

And look as I said Jordy has done extremely well to be on an AFL list but if you haven't got or developed more strings to the bow then you time will be short!

Brett Kirk and Daniel Cross. Where were their extra bows? Mckenzie has a heart of a lion but atm he is getting taught how implement an attacking side into his game which is something I have no problem with while he is developing that in the VFL.

Most certainly agree, no doubt about it.

And look as I said Jordy has done extremely well to be on an AFL list but if you haven't got or developed more strings to the bow then you time will be short!

What irks me is that universally demonlanders recognise that development almost stopped under the Neeld regime. We also recognise that Roos, Stone and co will develop players. We have seen improvement from a few on our list that were previously written off. Yet people keep harping on about how Mckenzie played under Neeld.

BB is right in that McKenzie may have lots ahead of him now and won't make the cut. Happy to give him until the end of season so I don't look like a dill like most of the demonlanders who wanted Dunn gone.(there plenty of those !)

McKenzie, just like Magner, Couch and Valenti before him, will always standout at VFL level because their hardness and ball winning ability at that level is high enough to make them standout.

AFL is another game, requiring a hell of a lot more than what McKenzie offers the side. People continue to see the number he gets at VFL level and suggest that he comes in...

Roos and co wouldn't care less about his numbers. It's about what else he has to offer? And it's not much. Unless a miracle happens and McKenzie suddenly becomes damaging with his disposal, can kick goals, provide an option, mark the ball and make the right decision with ball in hand, he won't be going anywhere. Tyson, Jones, Viney and Cross all offer more as players as contested ball winners.

Unless we get injuries or McKenzie develops some other attributes that will contribute to our team, he'll be playing VFL for the rest of the year.

I understood the arguments about playing him when there were literally no other options. But now we have options and upgrades. So why are people calling for him to come in? And for who?

Sadly, although Jordie remains one of my club favourites for his fearless endeavours, I am coming around to agree that he hasn't much future. I hope I am wrong, but ......

Common folks back on topic.

Salem to come in for a full game. Frawley to have mysterious injury of the week and be replaced by Gawn. Aiden Riley to come as a sub.

Mckenzie, Toumpas, Barry, Blease will all have to bring a string of good performances to the table to be selected in the squad or hope for injuries. One of the things I love with Roos and the improved list + development is forcing players to be playing good footy before they come into the squad.

McKenzie kicked a running goal in Round 5 2010 in his eighth game. You said he never kicked one. You were wrong. I can't be bothered going further.

You dope. Read the last sentence.

Actually, I never said it.....it's okay, hang in there.....

How is Toumpas developing at Casey? I havent heard anything.Is he injured?

Must admit not following Casey too closely. Will he play this year?

What irks me is that universally demonlanders recognise that development almost stopped under the Neeld regime. We also recognise that Roos, Stone and co will develop players. We have seen improvement from a few on our list that were previously written off. Yet people keep harping on about how Mckenzie played under Neeld.

BB is right in that McKenzie may have lots ahead of him now and won't make the cut. Happy to give him until the end of season so I don't look like a dill like most of the demonlanders who wanted Dunn gone.(there plenty of those !)

I disagree slightly. I don't think development existed much under Bailey, either. The body shapes and sizes of most of the players who had their formative years under Bailey remains a problem. Watts, Grimes, Trengove and to a lesser extent Frawley are all still physically slighter than they need to be for the roles they are expected to play. Go back and have a look at Grimes playing on Dangerfield. Grimes looks like a stick insect in comparison.

There are some exceptions (N Jones, Viney and Tapscott), but most of our best physically developed specimens had their early years at other clubs (eg, Vince, Dawes, Byrnes and even Michie).

How is Toumpas developing at Casey? I havent heard anything.Is he injured?

Must admit not following Casey too closely. Will he play this year?

He's playing. Check the Casey match thread(s).

What is the "one trick" of byrnes?

He still gets picked.

I disagree slightly. I don't think development existed much under Bailey, either. The body shapes and sizes of most of the players who had their formative years under Bailey remains a problem. Watts, Grimes, Trengove and to a lesser extent Frawley are all still physically slighter than they need to be for the roles they are expected to play. Go back and have a look at Grimes playing on Dangerfield. Grimes looks like a stick insect in comparison.

There are some exceptions (N Jones, Viney and Tapscott), but most of our best physically developed specimens had their early years at other clubs (eg, Vince, Dawes, Byrnes and even Michie).

I wasn't really talking about physical development ( although there is also that) - I am talking about development of skills and developing of necessary attributes to play AFL - following instructions and growing as a footballer - the continual education for footballers necessary to take them to the next level.

I wasn't really talking about physical development ( although there is also that) - I am talking about development of skills and developing of necessary attributes to play AFL - following instructions and growing as a footballer - the continual education for footballers necessary to take them to the next level.

I accept what you say, but if the body isn't right the rest won't follow, or, at least, not follow competely. Certainly it appears players in 2014 seem to have a greater appreciation of what's required and we've seen players such as Pedersen, M Jones, Jetta, Dunn and others play better than they've ever played before which is testament to what you are saying.

1. McKenzie in 2011 received two best on ground Brownlow credits, against Freo and Essendon. Can you show me Valenti and Magers BOG Brownlow achievements.

2. McKenzie kicked a running goal in Round 5 2010 in his eighth game. You said he never kicked one. You were wrong. I can't be bothered going further.

3. McKenzie finished 9th in the 2011 Best and Fairest playing just 15 games. On a pro rata basis if he'd played the full 22 games he'd have finished 3rd.

4. McKenzie won the coaches award on three occasions, can you show me Magner and Couch's similar achievements?

5. McKenzie has played a series of lock down roles including Ablett, Griffen and Dangerfield in three of the last four games last year. This forum was full of "I was wrong" posts.

6. In the fateful game against Geelong in 2011 McKenzie had 25 possessions, 8 tackles to be MFC leading possession winner. Nathan Jones was next with 19 possessions.

In 2012 came along and Neeld's mantra of "defence" cruelled the team and McKenzie, like Trengove, embraced the change.

My post asserted that McKenzie was in a different class to Magner and Couch. I conceded that he would struggle to regain and maintain a place in the seniors from here on.

Please analytically present Magner and Couch's career highlights to show they are as good or can even be compared equally to McKenzie.

I've taken the emotion out of this Steve so you can "debate" me and Saty on the facts. I'm waiting. I don't want opinions I want facts to back up your assertion.

Go to it.

Lord Jesus.

My argument from the beginning was this: McKenzie is a limited footballer. The reason he was drafted is because of his manic ball winning ability, similar to Magner, Couch and Valenti. He is similar to them in that sense. They were all drafted on the back of that strong attribute. They are midfielders. They are ball winners. They don't provide much more.

You say you've take the emotion out of it, yet you go on to provide a pointless list of 6 points as a means to argue that McKenzie is so much better than the three I compared his one strong attribute with.

It's a simple case of you (and the likers of your post), rating him more highly than myself.

Here is my rebuttal to some of your points:

1. Due to McKenzie's limited ability in most areas of the game he was made a stopper/tagger. One of his strengths is his tackling. I imagine he received those votes for tagging a player a couple of times. I would argue that there'd be several players who could also do a fantastic run-with role on an opposition player and providing they received the same support, could also receive BOG awards. Including the three I listed. Did they get an opportunity? No. However, Magner and Valenti received brownlow votes for winning their own ball as midfielders without run-with roles. Something I'd argue is harder to do than strictly limiting an opposition players influence on the game.

2. I wish now that I had said, 'Rarely kicks goals on the fly', or something like 'Is not known for hitting the scoreboard'. Of course you can find one goal he kicks on the run haha. I'm sure it was easy enough to find considering he never does it! (don't take that literally now BB). Again, further evidence that his skillset as an offensive player is NEAR non-existent.

3. Speaks absolute volumes of the quality of our list in 2011. If you are using that as evidence to suggest he is so much better than those other three I named, none of whom were at the club that year, (I don't think), then you are kidding yourself. What a ridiculous point. Our list was an absolute joke. Matt Jones finished top 5 last year I'm pretty sure. If Magner was on our list back then he would have possibly finished 1st going by your logic!

McKenzie was drafted at a time where we happened to blood every young player we had including most of our top draftees. We all know what happened to many of them. For various reasons they were traded and delisted. McKenzie happened to be drafted at the right time. He has displayed attributes and a work ethic that players like Morton, Gysberts, Blease, Cook and Watts haven't displayed. He was at Melbourne at a time when we were the laughing stock of the AFL and because so many of our young players for various reasons did not display some of the qualities that McKenzie is known for, he is made to look a hell of a lot better to supporters like you.

I appreciate his efforts. I appreciate the qualities that got him drafted. I see that he is limited as a player in the same way that Magner, Couch and Valenti are limited. They are all 'head over the ball hard-nosed and rough around the edges VFL footballers'. McKenzie was given the chance to become a run-with player and took a couple of admirable scalps. The other three were never given the chance to play a run-with role so we will never know. Which by your logic suggests that McKenzie is by far and away the superior footballer. I disagree.

Enough.

How about this as a bridge to both sides: we have quite a few 'limited footballers' and, therefore, they are going to get games, and this circumstance allows them to show Roos (and us) that they are not who we thought they were.

Mckenzie is a chance to come in stop Cotchin. Stop Cotchin. Stop Richmond.

If that is the case I'd rather see Nate Jones go to him we have enough midfield depth now that if we can nullify their best weapon, Cross, Viney, Vince, Tyson and Bail/JKH with their occasional runs through the middle should see us right in this. Good chance for Jamar to have another win.

If Jones goes to Cotchin they will still have to be aware of Jones being dangerous on the rebound, although to break the Tag they would move Cotchin forward. Should be interesting