Jake Spencer. Has he begun to turn the corner?

[Dee Dee 1,105]

Great effort by Spencer on Saturday.

I like his aggression: we need someone who can throw their weight around.

That "don't argue" type of player has been lacking in our team for too long.

And please confess- who of you on this forum wanted us to recruit Warnock a few years ago?

C'mon out with it!

[nutbean 8,838]

Its a matter of Demonland jumping the gun again.

I have no idea if he will make it or not but with few exceptions - ruckman start to come into their own at 23/24 which is exactly what Spencer is now. The next couple of seasons is the time to judge him. He needs to keep up the aggression but keep it under control - loving the tackling and throwing the weight around but if you watch the Warnock report, Spencer threw a few punches as well - one which I thought landed.

[Satyriconhome 10,729]

Getting absolutely hammered by Mumford was probably the turning point Jake needed, do you really think both Roos and Stafford didn't tell him that that is how they want him to be, exactly like Mumford

[rjay 24,887]

Early call on other early calls. This season will tell the tale.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Let's not get too carried away. Spencer had less hitouts than Warnock, which in my opinion is a vital stat that we need to win, especially given the hard-working nature of our midfield (ie we need to get our hands on the ball first at stoppages more).

Spencer also had a considerable amount less disposals than Warnock.

That said, it was Spencer's work ethic, especially in regards to presenting and tackling that made him stand out more than Warnock. But, given how low I rate Warnock, I would expect this would stand out for most rucks in the league when playing Carlton.

Playing the hypothetical game, if all our rucks were 100% fit, there is no doubt that Jamar would be in the team, and Spencer likely to be playing at Casey. Generally, Jamar wins a lot of hitouts, and while they haven't always been to advantage, the fact that we have more depth in the middle will only benefit someone like Jamar.

I'm not potting Spencer, I actually had him in my top 3 of players to watch for 2014. I'm just not getting carried away with a game that saw him just win his position. To be honest, I think the game would've been more enjoyable if both teams reached an agreement to not play any dedicated rucks. They were both ordinary at best, with our bloke winning a pretty ordinary contest.

[rjay 24,887]

Let's not get too carried away. Spencer had less hitouts than Warnock, which in my opinion is a vital stat that we need to win, especially given the hard-working nature of our midfield (ie we need to get our hands on the ball first at stoppages more).

Spencer also had a considerable amount less disposals than Warnock.

That said, it was Spencer's work ethic, especially in regards to presenting and tackling that made him stand out more than Warnock. But, given how low I rate Warnock, I would expect this would stand out for most rucks in the league when playing Carlton.

Playing the hypothetical game, if all our rucks were 100% fit, there is no doubt that Jamar would be in the team, and Spencer likely to be playing at Casey. Generally, Jamar wins a lot of hitouts, and while they haven't always been to advantage, the fact that we have more depth in the middle will only benefit someone like Jamar.

I'm not potting Spencer, I actually had him in my top 3 of players to watch for 2014. I'm just not getting carried away with a game that saw him just win his position. To be honest, I think the game would've been more enjoyable if both teams reached an agreement to not play any dedicated rucks. They were both ordinary at best, with our bloke winning a pretty ordinary contest.

I think that's a pretty good summation.

[Young Dee 1,303]

Big Spencil has copped a lot from supporters over the years, mostly to do with his distinct lack of ability to kick the ball where he is intending to. But you cannot question the kid's heart, he is aggressive, gutsy, and extremely quick for a big bloke.

His tackle on Yarran yesterday shows the strength he has gained recently, and his tap-work has improved immensely. Yes, he struggled in round two and three, but that was against Mumford, Cox and Naitanui.

In my opinion, if he can improve his marking further (enough to be able to rest forward), he will be our number one ruckman for a few years to come.

Don't get me wrong, I like Max Gawn, but Spencer's willingness to give his all for the club makes him (at this stage) my preferred choice going forward.

What do we think, DL?

Don't want to dampen the mood but I don't think he is a very good tap ruckman and that's the main reason he is there. For a 203cm player he should be able to win some genuine taps. When Jamar used to be ruckman you could see him genuinely win a tap and it go to a Melbourne player but with Spencer it seems as if the opposition wins the tap or neither ruckman really wins the tap. Most of the time they both hit the ball or they get an uncontrolled touch - our midfield would look a lot better with a good tap ruckman - probably explains our lack of clearances. Love the attitude of the bloke tho!

[Gipsy Danger 1,067]

I don't think the club should invest too heavily in him or Gawn at this stage. We should instead be going after the next Dean Cox or Shane Mumford or drafting the next Brodie Grundy.

Spencer will probably only ever be an average AFL quality ruckman at best. Holds his own against other average ruckman but gets found out against the big guns.

We need to identify the best young ruckman in the draft or playing at state level or poach a superstar. Spencer and Gawn will no doubt have to do for now and unless one does take the big step and become a genuine quality AFL ruckman, we need to be looking to the future with the aim of having an A grade ruckman on our list.

[DeeZee 7,363]

Finally took a few important marks on the weekend, i like his agression and second efforts, just needs to believe in himself more but that will come.

Id like to see him take some match saving marks down back or even in the foward line and try kick a snag or two.

Without a true second ruckman its hard to be everywhere though,and i applaud his efforts so far.

Edited April 14, 2014 by DeeZee

[Satyriconhome 10,729]

I don't think the club should invest too heavily in him or Gawn at this stage. We should instead be going after the next Dean Cox or Shane Mumford or drafting the next Brodie Grundy.

Spencer will probably only ever be an average AFL quality ruckman at best. Holds his own against other average ruckman but gets found out against the big guns.

We need to identify the best young ruckman in the draft or playing at state level or poach a superstar. Spencer and Gawn will no doubt have to do for now and unless one does take the big step and become a genuine quality AFL ruckman, we need to be looking to the future with the aim of having an A grade ruckman on our list.

So what you are saying is rookie a ruckman and let him develop, similar to what we have done with Spencer and we are doing with King?

[dee-luded 2,959]

Big Spencil has copped a lot from supporters over the years, mostly to do with his distinct lack of ability to kick the ball where he is intending to. But you cannot question the kid's heart, he is aggressive, gutsy, and extremely quick for a big bloke.

His tackle on Yarran yesterday shows the strength he has gained recently, and his tap-work has improved immensely. Yes, he struggled in round two and three, but that was against Mumford, Cox and Naitanui.

In my opinion, if he can improve his marking further (enough to be able to rest forward), he will be our number one ruckman for a few years to come.

Don't get me wrong, I like Max Gawn, but Spencer's willingness to give his all for the club makes him (at this stage) my preferred choice going forward.

What do we think, DL?

most inner supporters want to see the worlds elite ply their trades along the members side.. this is why we failed to gain any flags. pretty footballers rarely win the teams awards.

our inner supporters keep failing to recognise this.

Spencer has go, G&D, & like to mix it up. a great foundation for a bigmen to start from. But its a slow journey for big lumbering men. he started to arrive last year, but its slow growth.

same with fitzy, he's no quite ready yet mentally. he needs to mature more yet.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Max is still very young and will become a beast in time. I think the fact that he looks older than he is raises expectations

how do you know?

warnock's a beast, bigger than spencil. like maxy is. but war-nock isn't a leader

[chook fowler 19,446]

how do you know?

warnock's a beast, bigger than spencil. like maxy is. but war-nock isn't a leader

How does anyone know anything - i get the impression from watching him he has some natural aggression and is an extrovert around the club. Warnock seems quiet and timid. All Im saying is he needs more time especially with Stafford who I believe doing well as our ruck coach.

[DeeSpencer 25,477]

I don't think the club should invest too heavily in him or Gawn at this stage. We should instead be going after the next Dean Cox or Shane Mumford or drafting the next Brodie Grundy.

Spencer will probably only ever be an average AFL quality ruckman at best. Holds his own against other average ruckman but gets found out against the big guns.

We need to identify the best young ruckman in the draft or playing at state level or poach a superstar. Spencer and Gawn will no doubt have to do for now and unless one does take the big step and become a genuine quality AFL ruckman, we need to be looking to the future with the aim of having an A grade ruckman on our list.

I think Gawn and Spencer are tremendous assets and wouldn't worry about going all out for a guy who might only be marginally better. There are only a few ruckman at any time who have big influences on games and besides the true greats like Cox the rest go in and out of form an influence - see Jamar, Minson even Mumford. Considering we lost Clark I'd be much more interested in a forward/ruck to replace him.

Edited April 14, 2014 by the master

[dee-luded 2,959]

How does anyone know anything - i get the impression from watching him he has some natural aggression and is an extrovert around the club. Warnock seems quiet and timid. All Im saying is he needs more time especially with Stafford who I believe doing well as our ruck coach.

thats right, but we all should recognise our past weakneses of a lust for the types who can show a "clean pair of heels".

... rather than some gutsy hardassed types who'll move things in the big games.

We need to become a tougher club, like the Essendons, or the Hawks, Eagles, & now Cats, Freo.

... a basis of hardness should be a staple before considering recruits, or a least in kids, a willingness to "Go In".

#edit for better clarity

Edited April 14, 2014 by dee-luded

[DeeSpencer 25,477]

How does anyone know anything - i get the impression from watching him he has some natural aggression and is an extrovert around the club. Warnock seems quiet and timid. All Im saying is he needs more time especially with Stafford who I believe doing well as our ruck coach.

This. Don't think we had even a part time ruck coach under Neeld. Aaron Greaves as development coach tried to help out the big guys with Jamar leading the way. Makes so much more sense to have a ruck coach work with them.

[Gipsy Danger 1,067]

So what you are saying is rookie a ruckman and let him develop, similar to what we have done with Spencer and we are doing with King?

I'd rather poach someone else's ruckman who has been doing the time and been developed by another club.

My point is that Spencer and Gawn don't look like they are going to be top level ruckman and we need to hunt one down who is. So rather then investing heavily in them we need to look at getting a top ruckman.

I think it ok to have one developing ruckman on the list and another on the rookie list, like Max King, but we have two that to be honest would not be starting ruckman at any other club, except maybe Carlton based on the weekend, and one bloke who is well past his prime.

Obviously the club always intended Jamar to be the number 1 with Gawn and Spencer developing as back up, which due to Jamar's injuries and form just hasn't happened as planned and now we have two under developed and in Gawn's case injury prone ruckman with no obvious number 1.

I just think the club now needs to look ahead at finding the top quality ruckman, be it the best young kid in the land or go after an established star.

[ManDee 7,124]

Spencer reminds me of Strawberry O'Dwyer. A fair bit of mongrel about him. When fit Strawbs was a better ruckman than Jimmy Stynes IMO.

I love Spencers second & third efforts. It would be nice to have some help from Gawn with Gawn playing deep forward when Spencer in the ruck. If not Gawn same role with Fitzy if he gets his mojo back. Spencer to rest on the bench.

[chook fowler 19,446]

Think Gawn will be more likely to take a contested mark than Spencer so could be more useful up forward when resting

[Satyriconhome 10,729]

I'd rather poach someone else's ruckman who has been doing the time and been developed by another club.

My point is that Spencer and Gawn don't look like they are going to be top level ruckman and we need to hunt one down who is. So rather then investing heavily in them we need to look at getting a top ruckman.

I think it ok to have one developing ruckman on the list and another on the rookie list, like Max King, but we have two that to be honest would not be starting ruckman at any other club, except maybe Carlton based on the weekend, and one bloke who is well past his prime.

Obviously the club always intended Jamar to be the number 1 with Gawn and Spencer developing as back up, which due to Jamar's injuries and form just hasn't happened as planned and now we have two under developed and in Gawn's case injury prone ruckman with no obvious number 1.

I just think the club now needs to look ahead at finding the top quality ruckman, be it the best young kid in the land or go after an established star.

You said Cox or Mumford, they were rookies, and they were developed, Mumford sulked after King was picked for finals so moved on

Of the rucks in the competition, I would only say Cox, Natanui (if fit), Mumford would be considered top class ruckmen, Sandilands is 9 foot tall, Grundy is a freak, but teams are starting to figure him out, whether he can maintain, needs to be seen, hasn't had a real injury yet....most of the other ruckman provide a contest, that's all Roos wants and he got that from Spencer at the weekend

[Gipsy Danger 1,067]

You said Cox or Mumford, they were rookies, and they were developed, Mumford sulked after King was picked for finals so moved on

Of the rucks in the competition, I would only say Cox, Natanui (if fit), Mumford would be considered top class ruckmen, Sandilands is 9 foot tall, Grundy is a freak, but teams are starting to figure him out, whether he can maintain, needs to be seen, hasn't had a real injury yet....most of the other ruckman provide a contest, that's all Roos wants and he got that from Spencer at the weekend

I wasn't referring to Cox and Mumford as being developed from the rookie list, I just used them as an example as they are two if the best ruckman in the comp right now.

Spencer definitely tries his heart out and I applaud him for the effort but at best all he does is makes a contest so that really neither ruckman clearly puts it to the advantage of their own mids. Our midfield (and every midfield) would be so much better with a ruckman who could give his team first use at the stoppage. Stoppages aside, a good ruckman should be a tall option to kick around the ground in the general play and that is where Spencer really lets himself down.

[nutbean 8,838]

When fit Strawbs was a better ruckman than Jimmy Stynes IMO.

Correct - but Stynes was the better player - Stynes was never what you would call your traditional ruckman.

[ManDee 7,124]

Correct - but Stynes was the better player - Stynes was never what you would call your traditional ruckman.

What a luxury to have the two of them O'Dwyer & Stynes.

It is possible that two of Spencer, Fitzpatrick and Gawn could be a dominant ruck combo in years to come, they all have some wonderful attributes and are still young.

[ManDee 7,124]

Some physical stats on ruckmen.

John Nichols Carlton 189cm 105kg

John Sammy Newman 190cm 98kg

Carl Ditterich 194cm 96kg

Big Bob Johnson 198cm 96kg

Simon Madden 198cm 99kg

Shane Mumford 199cm 108kg

Jim Stynes 199cm 99kg

Steven O'Dwyer 201cm 101kg

Jake Spencer 203cm 103kg

Max Gawn 208cm 106kg

Aaron Sandilands 211cm 120kg

Yes they are getting bigger! But there is still a fair bit of "it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" -- Mark Twain

edit - added Carl - plenty of fight

Edited April 14, 2014 by ManDee

[Red N Blue Society 165]

Gawn over Spencer anyday of the week.

One reasonable game does not maketh the man..

However I do like Spencers aggression though & he played ok. Well done to him.