Jump to content

Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>


Jonesbag

Recommended Posts

I have already put my thoughts into the ether.

Doesn't matter what we think really. Wouldn't have a clue what will happen.

But players sign agreements when they come into the industry and Essendon weren't the only ones that failed these men - they failed themselves.

And escape from punishment should not come because there are no failed tests - Lance Armstrong never failed a test.

And escape from punishment should not come because they didn't keep (or managed to destroy) records of what was injected. Apparently, evidence gathered points to banned substances.

And escape from punishment should not come because their trust in their employers was misplaced. No other sport would have such a large loophole of rewarded ignorance.

But what will happen?

Who knows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have already put my thoughts into the ether.

Doesn't matter what we think really. Wouldn't have a clue what will happen.

But players sign agreements when they come into the industry and Essendon weren't the only ones that failed these men - they failed themselves.

And escape from punishment should not come because there are no failed tests - Lance Armstrong never failed a test.

And escape from punishment should not come because they didn't keep (or managed to destroy) records of what was injected. Apparently, evidence gathered points to banned substances.

And escape from punishment should not come because their trust in their employers was misplaced. No other sport would have such a large loophole of rewarded ignorance.

But what will happen?

Who knows.

Those are probably the wisest six words written on here for some time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is far too personal for you to be objective BB.

Wade Lees never tested positive. Lance Armstrong didn't test positive enough (Armstrong Tested Positive for Steroids Four Times in 1999 Tour).

Jobe Watson admitted on national television to having been injected with AOD. Stewart Crameri, Scott Gumbleton, Ricky Dyson and Sam Lonergan told ASADA they believed/suspected they had been injected with AOD &/or Thymosin.

If I was on my death bed, I'd surely sign any waiver they put in front of me. No matter what exhausting, foreign, details it contained.

However with my life's health, livelihood, social and professional standing at stake I'd make damned sure to have a complete understanding before signing any waiver my workplace put before me. There are channels, beyond the WhateverItTakes circle, that anyone remotely concerned can use to validate such a document one way or the other. They all wanted to gain a competitive edge and didn't care to know any more.

This is what you are advocating.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. I think this is far too personal for you to be objective BB.

2. Jobe Watson admitted on national television to having been injected with AOD. Stewart Crameri, Scott Gumbleton, Ricky Dyson and Sam Lonergan told ASADA they believed/suspected they had been injected with AOD &/or Thymosin.

3. They all wanted to gain a competitive edge and didn't care to know any more.

Point 1. It's not personal other than I look at situations and seek the "right" outcome. If these players are banned I think it's wrong. I'm not arguing the law.

Point 2. I can't remember exactly but isn't there some confusion over whether AOD 9604 was banned? I thought Essendon supposedly had a letter or communication saying it was ok. And what did the club tell them? I don't think you know. I'd think it most likely they said the drugs were ok.

Point 3. You've got no idea what the players wanted unless they have all confided in you. Yes they wanted to gain a competitive edge but I don't think that 43 of them were active drug cheats willing to risk their footy careers and reputations.

Anyway I'll leave it again other than to say the players you've mentioned who have said they believed they took those drugs would hardly admit to that if they were cheats and thought the drugs were banned. That doesn't make sense.

I know I'm pretty much one out on this both here and amongst my friends. But I'm not convinced by silly arguments of "it's the law" and "deterrent". I'm even less convinced that the players "knew".

Nobody here has moved me in any way towards the view these players should suffer more than they have. I'm totally comfortable with where I stand.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Saying they are not guilty of taking banned substances because there is no positive drug test is like saying we're not guilty of tanking because there was no written direction found.

Please don't confuse my silence to this silly post and others as agreement. I've made my point and I'll move on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Interesting that anyone would or should argue the law as it pertains to this.

Its actually about RULES as determined by an overseeing organisation which all parties agreed to and some disobeyed and others question the validity.

The rules are the rules. The laws as applicable uphold that they are enforcable.

Theres really nothing to debate.

The naughty ones need to be punished as warned.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting that anyone would or should argue the law as it pertains to this.

Its actually about RULES as determined by an overseeing organisation which all parties agreed to and some disobeyed and others question the validity.

The rules are the rules. The laws as applicable uphold that they are enforcable.

Theres really nothing to debate.

The naughty ones need to be punished as warned.

Good post.

This is really about Rules, not the Law.

These are sporting rules. They can be changed if need be by the relevant governing bodies.

No need to attack the Law, just effect change to the Rules, that allows the Sport to still be properly governed, if that is possible.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good post.

This is really about Rules, not the Law.

These are sporting rules. They can be changed if need be by the relevant governing bodies.

No need to attack the Law, just effect change to the Rules, that allows the Sport to still be properly governed, if that is possible.

Further to this don't the players sign away there right to the law and agree to the rules, which is overseen by ASADA on behald of WADA, when they become and AFL player?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say banning the Bomber players without a positive drug test is like sentencing someone to hang for murder without a body.

Well, you're wrong here on both counts:
Testing positive for a banned substance is proof that that substance was taken. However, the reverse is not the case for any number of reasons, the main one being the obvious shortcomings of a system that requires testing and consumption to occur more or less simultaneously - not to mention, not all drugs can be tested for.
As for being charged with murder without a body, it's within the law (i.e. legal) and has/does occur:
"… it is clear that the fact of death, like any other fact, can be proved by circumstantial evidence." (Lord Goddard on dismissing the appeal against a death sentence - later commuted - for a murder for which no body was ever found.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say banning the Bomber players without a positive drug test is like sentencing someone to hang for murder without a body.

I'd say that sort of thing happens a lot more often than you might think. Not only that, it happens mostly in those societies where there is a contempt for the law which is effectively what you're advocating when you posit an outcome that ignores the rules that apply here.

We can't ignore the reasons why the anti doping laws exist and how they evolved. Once we understand the "why" and the "how" then it should be clear why the players must receive infraction notices if evidence is produced to show that they ingested prohibited substances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Player receives multiple injections into his body. Player either doesn't know or fully understand what is being injected other than amino acids or such. Player is assured by scientists that products are legal, but keeps no record as to what is being administered and does none of his own research.

There is at least a sufficient degree of recklessness to have the player sanctioned in these circumstances.

If the player was misled by the scientist into believing that he had taken the legal product X and was duped into taking illegal product Y then that would be a different story.

The WADA code needs to be adhered to with a strict liability or it is a waste of time. If a guilty mind needed to be proven in every case then the code is a toothless tiger and drugs in sport will become rampant.

Well spoken. If players are sanctioned, and I'd be surprised if they are not, they can then take legal action against the EFC, its directors, coaches and medical staff for compensation and damages. While this won't bring back the lost time in the game and reverse future health issues it will hold the club accountable and minimise financial impact. This will also ensure players will ask questions when asked to sin waivers and recieve a large number of injections.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Dank draws a blank - Dank ignores ASADA request for explanation story

This suggests to me that ASADA can now proceed to recommend the issue of infraction notices to players. In the absence of explanations from Dank about the thymosin administered to players, it's reasonable to conclude that Dank gave them the TB4 which is banned. He admitted to this in an interview with Baker and McKenzie of the Age and only withdrew that admission after he was told by his interviewers that TB4 is a prohibited substance. It's reasonable to conclude that this was done as an afterthought to save him from incriminating himself.

I've previously discussed the connection between Dank, the invoices given to Essendon and the TB4. There's lots more but in essence, in the absence of a reasonable explanation from Dank (and he's now blown that opportunity) the circumstantial case against him, the players and a number of officials can be made.

Once the notices go out, perhaps Worksafe might become interested and come in to assist the players.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

ASADA with perfect timeing. Essendon play friday night, the 10 day window to explain to Dank expires today. That gives ASADA all of tomorrow to issue notices (if there are any) to the players. Wouldnt that be a fun start to the season. Walking into the changerooms mentally prepared to take the field and then given a letter from ASADA.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the absence of explanations from Dank about the thymosin administered to players, it's reasonable to conclude that Dank gave them the TB4 which is banned. He admitted to this in an interview with Baker and McKenzie of the Age and only withdrew that admission after he was told by his interviewers that TB4 is a prohibited substance. It's reasonable to conclude that this was done as an afterthought to save him from incriminating himself.

In all of this is a conviction based on "reasonable probability" or "beyond reasonable doubt"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ASADA with perfect timeing. Essendon play friday night, the 10 day window to explain to Dank expires today. That gives ASADA all of tomorrow to issue notices (if there are any) to the players. Wouldnt that be a fun start to the season. Walking into the changerooms mentally prepared to take the field and then given a letter from ASADA.

I'm surprised any football fan could take this approach. It will substantially disrupt a football season for the entire competition and ruin what promises to be a very good game.

It does however show where your comments and views are coming from. How would you feel if it was MFC footballers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm surprised any football fan could take this approach. It will substantially disrupt a football season for the entire competition and ruin what promises to be a very good game.

It does however show where your comments and views are coming from. How would you feel if it was MFC footballers?

LOL - that's a bit like a "when did you last beat your wife" question

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In all of this is a conviction based on "reasonable probability" or "beyond reasonable doubt"?

On the balance of probabilities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm surprised any football fan could take this approach. It will substantially disrupt a football season for the entire competition and ruin what promises to be a very good game.

It does however show where your comments and views are coming from. How would you feel if it was MFC footballers?

my comment was a 'tongue in cheek' comment highlighting the timing of the situation.

All of last year was under a cloud for the EFC let alone our players and new even the GC club. My comment was not a "wish for" or indication as to my feelings towards the whole ASADA/EFC/Dank situation. I was lighthartedly trying to bring to the forum the taxing toll this would be to the players and how all of the measures put in place by the players would be brought undone IF that was to occur.

If it was happening to the MFC footballers i would feel the same as i do now. I want this thing to be over with. If there are infraction notices then issue them. If there is 'nothing further to answer' then release the findings. It is a complex issue and it will no doubt will continue to be for the remainder of this season and probably will be for seasons to come.

I never said anything about the fans of the EFC it was an approach from the players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    BLOODY BLUES by Meggs

    The conclusion to Narrm’s home and away season was the inevitable let down by the bloody Blues  who meekly capitulated to the Bombers.   The 2024 season fixture handicapped the Demons chances from the get-go with Port Adelaide, Brisbane and Essendon advantaged with enough gimme games to ensure a tough road to the finals, especially after a slew of early season injuries to star players cost wins and percentage.     As we strode confidently through the gates of Prin

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 3

    2024 Player Reviews: #5 Christian Petracca

    Melbourne’s most important player who dominated the first half of the season until his untimely injury in the Kings Birthday clash put an end to his season. At the time, he was on his way to many personal honours and the club in strong finals contention. When the season did end for Melbourne and Petracca was slowly recovering, he was engulfed in controversy about a possible move of clubs amid claims about his treatment by the club in the immediate aftermath of his injury. Date of Birth: 4 J

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 21

    2024 Player Reviews: #2 Jacob van Rooyen

    Strong marking youngster who plays forward and relief ruck, continued to make significant strides forward in his career path. The Demons have high hopes for van Rooyen as he stakes his claim to become an elite attacking forward. Date of Birth: 16 April 2003 Height: 193cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 41 Goals MFC 2024: 30 Career Total: 58 Brownlow Medal Votes: 1

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 26

    LIVE AND LET DIE by Meggs

    The Demons’ impressive late season charge to finals will most likely come unstuck this Saturday evening when the Bombers blow up the also-ran Blues in the Ikon Park double-header.   To mangle McCartney, what does it matter to ya? To have any chance to play next week Narrm has got a job to do and needs to do it well.  We’ve got to give the Pie sheilas hell, say live and let die! It’s Indigenous Round for this game and the chance to celebrate and engage with Aboriginal and Torres

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    AFLW Melbourne Demons

    2024 Player Reviews: #32 Tom Sparrow

    Had to shoulder more responsibility as the club’s injury concerns deepened but needs to step up more as he closes in on 100 games. Date of Birth: 31 May 2000 Height: 186cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 95 Goals MFC 2024: 6 Career Total: 34 Games CDFC: 1 Goals CDFL: 0

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 24

    2024 Player Reviews: #35 Harry Petty

    Date of Birth: 12 November 1999 Height: 197cm Games MFC 2024: 20 Career Total: 82 Goals MFC 2024: 9 Career Total: 28 Brownlow Medal Votes 3 Failed to fulfill the promise of his breakout six goal effort against the Tigers in 2023 and was generally disappointing as a key forward. It remains to be seen whether Simon Goodwin will persevere with him in attack or return him to the backline where he was an important cog in the club’s 2021 premiership success.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 18

    2024 Player Reviews: #22 Blake Howes

    After a bright start to the season, playing mostly in defence, Howes seemed to lose his way in midseason but fought back with some good performances at Casey and finished the year back at AFL level. One to watch in 2024. Date of Birth: 7 March 2003 Height: 191cm Games MFC 2024: 15 Career Total:  15 Goals MFC 2024: 0 Career Total:  0 Games CDFC 2024: 6 Goals CDFC 2024: 0

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 5

    2024 Player Reviews: #33 Tom Fullarton

    Originally an NBL basketballer with the Brisbane Bullets, he moved across town in 2019 to the AFL Lions where he played 19 games before crossing to Melbourne where he was expected to fill a role as a back up ruckman/key forward. Unfortunately, didn’t quite get there although he did finish equal sixth in Casey’s best and fairest award. Date of Birth: 23 February 1999 Height: 198cm Games CDFC: 14 Goals CDFL: 13

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 8

    2024 Player Reviews: #10 Angus Brayshaw

    Sadly, had to wrap up a great career in midstream on the back of multiple concussions which culminated in the Maynard hit in the 2023 Qualifying Final. His loss to the club was inestimable over and above his on field talent given his character and leadership qualities, all of which have been sorely missed. Date of Birth: 9 January 1996 Height: 188cm Games MFC 2024: 0 Career Total: 167 Goals MFC 2024: 0 Career Total: 49

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 8
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!

×
×
  • Create New...