Loving seeing Carlton fall apart. They've got one key forward who only plays well once every two-three weeks, they've got two key defenders, one of whom is pretty one-dimensional (Jamison). They've got three dud ruckmen, a bunch of softcocks (Lucas, Gibbs, Yarran), and they are giving games to some awful footballers (Bootsma would be struggling to get a game here, FFS).

Before last night their biggest losing margin was 22 points, but it's all coming apart and it's clear that their list isn't good enough.

And I doubt there's any non-Carlton supporter out there who isn't happy about that.

Because they aren't being considered for a PP.

Not true - they tanked in 2007 to get one according to Fev and Libba.

Different treatment to us.

Sure, it can be done with an inflated salary cap and excellent management. But if you are so bad that you have only won four games by Round 20 and an extra win costs you picks #1 and #2 in exchange for #3 it is really a no brainer.

Yes, managing to lose one extra game is a no brainer if it isn't detectable to the playing group, or the wider public - even if they have their suspicions. But a telegraphed, orchestrated and systematic campaign for half a year to ensure priority picks can do untold damage to the fabric of a club and pervade the psyche of the playing group.

My point being that there is tanking and there is tanking. You may, or may not get my drift. Plenty won't.

Yes, managing to lose one extra game is a no brainer if it isn't detectable to the playing group, or the wider public - even if they have their suspicions. But a telegraphed, orchestrated and systematic campaign for half a year to ensure priority picks can do untold damage to the fabric of a club and pervade the psyche of the playing group.

My point being that there is tanking and there is tanking. You may, or may not get my drift. Plenty won't.

...and it has.

Melbourne and Carlton......Collingwood and Hawthorn.

I understand what you said, have you looked at the AFL ladder, Carlton are a lot closer to glory than us, FMD our list is pathetic.

Sorry mjt, but by that logic half way through the 87' season you would have been saying Fitzroy were closer to playing finals then us.

If you think our list is pathetic now with the likes of Hogan, Viney, Toumpas, Kent, Frawley, McDonald, Grimes, Trengove, N. Jones, Dawes, Gawn, Evans, Clisby. Terlich, Garland, Blease all with their best footy ahead of them, plus throw in Mitch Clark then you must be a glass half empty kind of guy and I'd hate to think what you thought of our list back in 2008.

Unless Carlton manage to steal a premiership this year or next which is highly unlikely then they're going to sink faster then the titanic with the likes of Judd, Waite, Scotland, Simpson & Carrazo all getting to the later stages of their career.

With our young list, if we can get the right coach and admin in place then there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to launch a serious assault on finals and then a premership from 2015 onwards while Carlton occupy the position we have for to long now.

Sorry mjt, but by that logic half way through the 87' season you would have been saying Fitzroy were closer to playing finals then us.

You touch on a point I've been meaning to bring up.

This declaration that one team is closer to a flag than another is mindless guess work. And it nearly always refers to teams that are both miles off. When teams are clearly not close to a flag it means diddly if one club is more competitive, but also has no hope. It's like arguing over who the better player was out of Simon Godfrey or Jordie McKenzie. Who cares ? It doesn't matter. Both good servants of their club, but both short of being premiership quality mids - by a long way.

Saying Carlton is closer to a flag than us is the domain of the cognitively challenged. It simply means that they're more competitive than us right now, but it doesn't mean they will be in 3 years, or that they'll win a flag first. The bulk of Carlton's list is not premiership capable and nor is ours.

A better question would be, "who's list would you prefer to coach now for the next 5 years".

I have complete confidence they're on the right path, they have Barry Prendergast after all.

You touch on a point I've been meaning to bring up.

This declaration that one team is closer to a flag than another is mindless guess work. And it nearly always refers to teams that are both miles off. When teams are clearly not close to a flag it means diddly if one club is more competitive, but also has no hope. It's like arguing over who the better player was out of Simon Godfrey or Jordie McKenzie. Who cares ? It doesn't matter. Both good servants of their club, but both short of being premiership quality mids - by a long way.

Saying Carlton is closer to a flag than us is the domain of the cognitively challenged. It simply means that they're more competitive than us right now, but it doesn't mean they will be in 3 years, or that they'll win a flag first. The bulk of Carlton's list is not premiership capable and nor is ours.

A better question would be, "who's list would you prefer to coach now for the next 5 years".

I agree the 'closer to a flag' argument is fairly pointless, but I'm not sure it differs much at bottom from the question you say is a better one. Presumably a coach would like to coach a team that has a chance of a flag in the next 5 years, so the two questions have a lot of overlap.

Wow!

Watching Carlton, Richmond AND Hawthorn lose over the weekend can't be a bad thing.

Now, a spirited effort by the boys today means that Monday won't be that hard after all.

Yes, managing to lose one extra game is a no brainer if it isn't detectable to the playing group, or the wider public - even if they have their suspicions. But a telegraphed, orchestrated and systematic campaign for half a year to ensure priority picks can do untold damage to the fabric of a club and pervade the psyche of the playing group.

My point being that there is tanking and there is tanking. You may, or may not get my drift. Plenty won't.

You can point to intangible reasons for our position if it makes you sleep well at night, but IMO the key reason we are where we are is poor recruiting decisions.

Carlton's loss made my weekend!

No 1 hate team closely followed by Essendon, St Kilda and Hawthorn

GWS not all that highly thought of either! The Sheedy influence is why not to mention the former no 1 draft who is performing ordinarily!

Strangely,I admire Collingwood and Brisbane, love Swans and Geelong as well.

Interesting I have followed the DEES for a million years and am only now coming to appreciate other teams!

Still despise the ones listed!

Gee I hate Carlton and the arrogance misplaced, but arrogant all the same!

Does anyone know how the sausage sizzle went?

Why the f... don't we get a sausage sizzle too? We're not making the finals either, and if anything can make up for missing finals it's a sausage sizzle. Get on the god damn phone to the bloke outside Bunnings and tell him to wheel his kit down to Gosch's.

But seriously, I hope Lance Whitnall showed up for the free feed and put them another million in debt.

Carlton's loss made my weekend!

No 1 hate team closely followed by Essendon, St Kilda and Hawthorn

GWS not all that highly thought of either! The Sheedy influence is why not to mention the former no 1 draft who is performing ordinarily!

Strangely,I admire Collingwood and Brisbane, love Swans and Geelong as well.

Interesting I have followed the DEES for a million years and am only now coming to appreciate other teams!

Still despise the ones listed!

Gee I hate Carlton and the arrogance misplaced, but arrogant all the same!

You admire Collingwood!

WOW I guess some must like them.

IMO the old good black and white team is one that just been steam rolled by the mighty blue and red.

First of all what has Carlton,Jobe Watson,The Lone Ranger etc got to do with the MFC, beats the crap out of me.Lets pray we don,t pick up any Carlton players.And thank god for not appointing Malthouse........now a dinosaur

Does anyone know how the sausage sizzle went?

Why the f... don't we get a sausage sizzle too? We're not making the finals either, and if anything can make up for missing finals it's a sausage sizzle. Get on the god damn phone to the bloke outside Bunnings and tell him to wheel his kit down to Gosch's.

But seriously, I hope Lance Whitnall showed up for the free feed and put them another million in debt.

Don't laugh. Mark Neeld would probably still be our coach to this day had he invited us all down to the MCG for a sausage sizzle every once in a while.

Is it true that Malthouse filmed that invitation at gunpoint?

Don't laugh. Mark Neeld would probably still be our coach to this day had he invited us all down to the MCG for a sausage sizzle every once in a while.

Is it true that Malthouse filmed that invitation at gunpoint?

It's Carlton, of course it was done at gun point.

I have complete confidence they're on the right path, they have Barry Prendergast after all.

Is BP still there?? I'd forgotten that. I am amazed no one else has put two and two together. wowee

Is BP still there?? I'd forgotten that. I am amazed no one else has put two and two together. wowee

I think Mathieson may be on to him.

You can point to intangible reasons for our position if it makes you sleep well at night, but IMO the key reason we are where we are is poor recruiting decisions.

Why do you think I'd disagree ?

I have complete confidence they're on the right path, they have Barry Prendergast after all.

Agree. Don't know what all the Carlton moneymen and ex players are on about.

I think the recruiting over development issue is being proved over and over again.

Look at the younger players who have left us, how many have developed and improved at their new clubs.

Look at an Ollie Wines, he walks in and plays great footy in his first year. He is good. Surely this is not due to development in a pre-season.

There is still an important part of your improvement, being development, but I am of the view you have it, or you don't. Development can only take you so far.

I think the recruiting over development issue is being proved over and over again.

Look at the younger players who have left us, how many have developed and improved at their new clubs.

Look at an Ollie Wines, he walks in and plays great footy in his first year. He is good. Surely this is not due to development in a pre-season.

There is still an important part of your improvement, being development, but I am of the view you have it, or you don't. Development can only take you so far.

I am in 100% agreement.

If you pick poorly nothing will make them Good players

Nothing will convince me that you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

If development was everything how come Gillies is not a champion.

Low draft pick, put through the "Geelong System"

He should be playing for Geelong instead of Rivers.

Sadly he is not justying his spot as Casey.

I think the recruiting over development issue is being proved over and over again.

Look at the younger players who have left us, how many have developed and improved at their new clubs.

Look at an Ollie Wines, he walks in and plays great footy in his first year. He is good. Surely this is not due to development in a pre-season.

There is still an important part of your improvement, being development, but I am of the view you have it, or you don't. Development can only take you so far.

And then there is hunger for the contest......

Pretty sure BP is an opposition analyst at Carlton, we shall see if a pattern emerges.

Pretty sure BP is an opposition analyst at Carlton, we shall see if a pattern emerges.

There is, he has been looking at the team Carlton played the week before each game.