further to my disagreement that toumpas' first year has been "sensational"

- he has regularly ducked his head in contested situations (against gold coast in particular he was poor before being injured)

- his tackling attempts are often one-arm reaches rather than dedicated attempts

- he doesn't one-two run as outside players should, i.e. he doesn't get the ball, dispose of it, then make himself an option further afield

- he doesn't look remotely fit enough (see the photo posted on the mfc facebook page of him in a recycle bin ice-bath? he's nowhere near as ripped as other players, and looks a bit porky)

- he's not quick for an outside player

players i can think of off the top of my head who've had better first years than him in 2013:

- jaeger o'meara (the kid is a freak)

- ollie wines

- brad crouch

- lachie whitfield

- sam dwyer

- jamie elliott

- sam mayes

- nick vlastuin

- jake neade

and that's just 2013.

melbourne players who i can think of off the top of my head who've had more impressive first years than him in recent times:

- nathan jones

- clint bartram

- matthew bate

- jamie bennell

- jack trengove

- tom scully

- cale morton

- ricky petterd

irrespective of his hip injury, we were told he was 'ready to go' by nearly every story on him prior to the draft. he looks far, far away from that.

the damning fact for me is that cale morton produced superior football to toumpas in his first year in 2008, when we were probably even worse than we are in 2013.

fortunately, from what we've seen he is a very nice kick, but he has a long way to go to be what i was expecting we were getting when we drafted him.

a sensational first year? not on your life.

P_man was talking about Wines being sensational, not Toumpas. Thanks for the long winded rebuttal, though

  On 20/07/2013 at 23:07, DemonAndrew said:

players i can think of off the top of my head who've had better first years than him in 2013:

- jamie elliott

Agree that Jimmy T's debut year has been rather unspectacular but he's doing it hard in an ordinary team and, for the first half season, under ordinary coaching.

Jamie Elliott, on the other hand, is coming along nicely but given that he played 13 games in 2012, I don't think the comparison is warranted.

MFC supporters are so damaged that the thought of having stuffed up another draft pick could send some spiralling into madness!

Hence, the constant denial that keeps that sanity intact.

Cheers for the response Andrew but I was talking about Wines. Anyhow, in the light of day I don't want to turn a Jimmy T thread into another discussion about Wines so I'lll leave it there.

Edited July 20, 201311 yr by P_Man

oh, mad bad. when i read it last night i thought you were saying jimmy t's first year was sensational, which i just couldn't understand at all.

  On 20/07/2013 at 23:07, DemonAndrew said:

- he has regularly ducked his head in contested situations (against gold coast in particular he was poor before being injured)

Thank you very much. This usually means you are soft does it not?Thank god someone else can see it

  On 21/07/2013 at 00:25, DEELIRIOUS said:

Thank you very much. This usually means you are soft does it not?Thank god someone else can see it

Big man.

Pretty quick to make outlandish claims about a kid, then feverishly try to back it up at every opportunity so you can feel justified.

You'll be the one looking stupid in time, if you don't already.

Yes it was a bad one last night for Jimmy. I hope he is not dropped, as the best thing for him is gametime, just like Fitzy, who is now starting to feel at home in the side.

The problem with Jimmy is, he has come with the high pick expectation and because of his hampered pre season and operation, he is struggling to find his best form.

I think we will see a far improved Jimmy next year, barring injury.

  On 21/07/2013 at 01:02, Redleg said:

Yes it was a bad one last night for Jimmy. I hope he is not dropped, as the best thing for him is gametime, just like Fitzy, who is now starting to feel at home in the side.

The problem with Jimmy is, he has come with the high pick expectation and because of his hampered pre season and operation, he is struggling to find his best form.

I think we will see a far improved Jimmy next year, barring injury.

'Redleg', I think one of Jimmy's biggest problems which could also be an asset long term is the expectation he places on himself. He is putting a lot of pressure on himself at the moment and needs to settle into the game a bit more. Game time will help.

The poor kid's initial reaction was to blamed himself for Neeld's sacking.

He felt his limited output thus far contributed to it.

That care factor, and placing the responsibility on himself rather than looking for scapegoats, holds him in very good stead.

Poor game but give the young man the benefit of the doubt, he played very well against Geelong in horrid conditions not a week ago, and he looked pretty crook on the bench,

weren't we talking at the start of the year about managing expectations on our young players? haha

Toumpas will become a decent AFL player, but already there are signs he's not going to become a gun AFL mid, which is what you want from a top 5 draft pick. Rarely have I seen a young top-performed junior seem so uncertain of himself and out of his depth. He's admitted that he's struggled to adjust to AFL footy. He's neat and will be far better as he matures and plays in a decent team, but I struggle to see any "star factor" with Toumpas. He's the type of player that will do well as a linkman in a chain of disposals, but I've seen nothing to suggest he can initiate play. The best AFL mids are the architects, they're the drivers that set up play and initiate proceedings, but Jimmy seems an over the top hand ball receive kind of guy, who then delivers it nicely.

Supporters will say, but he's only 19 and hasn't played much footy, etc. Thanks for stating the bleeding obvious. Jimmy may become what we all hope, but the best young mids usually show what they'll become even when they starting out on their fledgling careers. I've seen enough star mids start out in my lifetime to at least have some early concerns regarding Toumpas and what he brings to the table.

He had a shocker, to be sure, but it can be a funny old game. If Fitz doesn't get that free kick, Jimmy has a kick and, potentially, goal 40 seconds in. Needs a run in the seconds.

Agree with Ben-Hur.

His neat kicking is reminiscent of Montagna or Camporeale, but he doesn't have the burst speed of either player.

As an outside mid to not have genuine pace is a big weakness, not to mention the lack of 'oomph' that he has in his game so far.

  On 21/07/2013 at 02:18, Ben-Hur said:

Toumpas will become a decent AFL player, but already there are signs he's not going to become a gun AFL mid, which is what you want from a top 5 draft pick. Rarely have I seen a young top-performed junior seem so uncertain of himself and out of his depth. He's admitted that he's struggled to adjust to AFL footy. He's neat and will be far better as he matures and plays in a decent team, but I struggle to see any "star factor" with Toumpas. He's the type of player that will do well as a linkman in a chain of disposals, but I've seen nothing to suggest he can initiate play. The best AFL mids are the architects, they're the drivers that set up play and initiate proceedings, but Jimmy seems an over the top hand ball receive kind of guy, who then delivers it nicely.

Supporters will say, but he's only 19 and hasn't played much footy, etc. Thanks for stating the bleeding obvious. Jimmy may become what we all hope, but the best young mids usually show what they'll become even when they starting out on their fledgling careers. I've seen enough star mids start out in my lifetime to at least have some early concerns regarding Toumpas and what he brings to the table.

Same was said of Sam Mitchell......It amazes me that after what? 9 games we can sit in judgement......

Edited July 21, 201311 yr by Bossdog

I don't think anyone is calling him as finished in his first year, just that there's genuine concern as to what it is that he's bringing to the game so far.

  On 21/07/2013 at 02:32, Bossdog said:

Same was said of Sam Mitchell......It amazes me that after what? 5 games we can sit in judgement......

And Ablett Jnr. was pretty well regarded as a soft, lazy footballer in his first 100 games...

IMO Trengove is far more of a concern than Toumpas at the moment, and the rest of our midfield is an even bigger worry again.

'For one swallow does not make a summer, nor does one day; particularly after hip surgery and in the worst AFL midfield of all time.'

- Aristotle

Edited July 21, 201311 yr by Evans Above

  On 21/07/2013 at 02:34, 45HG said:

And Ablett Jnr. was pretty well regarded as a soft, lazy footballer in his first 100 games...

IMO Trengove is far more of a concern than Toumpas at the moment, and the rest of our midfield is an even bigger worry again.

As I stated in another thread....Trengove got votes in the Sunday Age this morning......Does a lot of defensive work in the stopages....

  On 21/07/2013 at 02:39, Evans Above said:

'For one swallow does not make a summer, nor does one day; particularly after hip surgery and in the worst AFL midfield of all time.'

- Aristotle

I think that was Socrates.

I saw enough of Toumpas last year to know he can seriously play. My concern is his mental fragility. If he currently does't get a touch in the first 10 minutes he seems to mount pressure on himself and then just run around without purpose. Even his interview post Geelong game showed he was greatful to be out there rather than knowing he belongs like Viney, Wines interviews I have seen. He stated he was overawed by some of the Swans players whereas Viney just tries to kill whoever is in front of him. For this reason I see benefit to playing him through Casey until he believes his form deserves to see him on this stage. Once he gets his confidence right and a full preseason I have no doubt he will be a very good player.

As much as I love the toump, imagine what would of happened if he was picked in the top 3 and we would have taken Wines.

Should spend the rest of the year in the twos, clearly not ready yet.

I'm not worried about Toumpas. He'll be a classy long term player for this club.