Forward/Ruck Set up 2014

[Fat Tony 5,262]

Apart from the midfield, another big question our next coach will face is coming up with a functioning forward line and ruck set up. We clearly have too many key forwards (and this excludes the potential drafting of Tom Boyd) and I have doubts about a forward set up with any more than three talls at any one time given the way the game is played today. Assuming we can keep all our players, this thread poses the question of how we deal with this issue.

Points:

• Assuming Mitch Clark comes back to fitness, it will be interesting if he can play in the ruck. If he can, finding a solution to this dilemma will be much easier. A fully fit Clark might also be able to play a pinch-hitting role as a midfielder.

• Chris Dawes struggled when asked to be the second ruckman at Collingwood, so I think he is the least versatile of our key forwards.

• Jack Watts looks better in the forward line than in the back line, but I think he could also play on the wing.

• Jesse Hogan looks ready made. He runs a 14.4 beep test, so he also possibly has the potential to pinch hit in the midfield ala Roughead.

• Jeremy Howe has shown he can play both forward and midfield. I think he looks a perfect third tall, but might need to play elsewhere for team balance.

• Max Gawn has shown more as a deep forward than a ruckman in my opinion and doesn’t look like he has the engine to play significant minutes on the ball.

• Mark Jamar clearly looks like he nearing the end of his career but he has a three-year contract. He is also a veteran, which is beneficial from a Salary Cap perspective (although this is a moot point). He could be worth something in terms of a trade, but that could have a negative impact on the player group. It is difficult to know what to do with Jamar without being inside the tent.

• Jack Fitzpatrick will need to show something in the second half of this year and should be given a real opportunity. He looks more comfortable up forward than in the ruck, but still has the athletic ability to compete as a second ruckman.

• If we get a priority pick (or finish last) and Boyd is the clear No. 1, we need to trade the pick down (for instance to the Bulldogs or Saints for pick 4 or 5 plus sweetners) or for a gun midfielder (although I doubt anyone worthy of pick 1 would agree to come).

Fat Tony’s 2014 set up assuming Clark is able to play in the ruck:

Centres: Watts xxx Howe

Half Forwards: Sylvia Dawes Hogan

Forwards: Small (Byrnes) Clark (45/40) Small (Davey)

Fol: Gawn (60/25) xxx xxx

[titan_uranus 25,043]

For mine, Clark's best football is at FF, but with Hogan and Dawes, I think we can afford to try Clark as the back-up ruckman, splitting his time between ruck and forward.

I'd say Clark the FF when he's not rucking, Dawes higher up as the CHF, with Hogan mixing between both. When Clark rucks, the options are either to drop Hogan closer to the square, or have Gawn rest in the square and keep Hogan higher.

Watts should be the third/fourth tall. Howe should play higher up the ground. We'll then need smaller players rotating through: Davey, Byrnes (if he's still here), Blease at times, maybe Jetta at times, maybe Barry will fill this role.

I'd look to how Hawthorn do it. They have Franklin, Roughead, Hale and Gunston, with Bailey rucking, which is a similar distribution to Hogan, Dawes, Clark and Watts, with Gawn rucking. I'd look to how they split Hale and Bailey in the ruck, how they spread their talls across the ground, as a rough guide to how we should be spreading our players.

[Fat Tony 5,262]

For mine, Clark's best football is at FF, but with Hogan and Dawes, I think we can afford to try Clark as the back-up ruckman, splitting his time between ruck and forward.

I'd say Clark the FF when he's not rucking, Dawes higher up as the CHF, with Hogan mixing between both. When Clark rucks, the options are either to drop Hogan closer to the square, or have Gawn rest in the square and keep Hogan higher.

Watts should be the third/fourth tall. Howe should play higher up the ground. We'll then need smaller players rotating through: Davey, Byrnes (if he's still here), Blease at times, maybe Jetta at times, maybe Barry will fill this role.

I'd look to how Hawthorn do it. They have Franklin, Roughead, Hale and Gunston, with Bailey rucking, which is a similar distribution to Hogan, Dawes, Clark and Watts, with Gawn rucking. I'd look to how they split Hale and Bailey in the ruck, how they spread their talls across the ground, as a rough guide to how we should be spreading our players.

You may be right, but Hawthorn are lucky that Franklin plays like a small forward and Roughead and Gunstan are good on the deck also. Gunstan started on the wing on Friday and Roughead had spells on the ball. (Bailey often gets subbed out also.)

Our tall forwards are better in the air but not as mobile. I think we need to use pinch hitters on the ball often. And Watts and Howe will need to play in the midfield for team balance.

[titan_uranus 25,043]

You may be right, but Hawthorn are lucky that Franklin plays like a small forward and Roughead and Gunstan are good on the deck also. Gunstan started on the wing on Friday and Roughead had spells on the ball. (Bailey often gets subbed out also.)

Our tall forwards are better in the air but not as mobile. I think we need to use pinch hitters on the ball often. And Watts and Howe will need to play in the midfield for team balance.

Absolutely - it's hard to compare our players to players like Franklin, that's for sure. But I think Hawthorn represents a starting point anyway.

Bailey does get subbed out a lot, but if we have Clark, Hogan and Dawes all in one side, with Watts and Howe, maybe we could work with subbing Gawn out at times.

At any rate - Hogan and Dawes as mainstay forwards is a start, I think. Then work out how Clark fits in best, and then Watts/Howe we work around that (e.g. HFF for 50%, wing for 50%, or variations on that). Clearly we also need to find at least one small forward too (Breust, Stokes, Christensen, McGlynn, Ballantyne, all the good sides have at least one).

[Triple Jack 13]

Next year I would look at a forward structure similar to WCE of 2011.
They had Kennedy as a Full forward, Qstick as CHF and Darling as the third tall.
For me Mitch should play FF(Not sure about putting him in the ruck, consultation with Medical staff is clear here. What ever allows us to keep Mitch on the ground for the season is what we should do) Dawes as our CHF and Hogan as the third tall like Darling.
I think Jamar is struggling and I really think it is time for us to move on. Gawn has the most potential upside so I would play him as no.1 ruck, If possible him and Mitch can rotate the FF/Ruck roles with Gawn doing 70% in the ruck.
Watts and Howe can rotate of HF and Wing (LeCras type). Same as Blease and Sylvia. Then Davey or Byrnes ad the small forward.

[drdrake 3,187]

Good problem to have, the best thing about Clark, Watts, Howe and Hogan is they play tall and are mobile enough at ground level. To me Howe and Watts are good enough to play forward with runs through the midfield. To me our best set up for 2014

blease Clark Hogan

Howe Dawes Watts

With Kent, Trengove, Toumpas, Sylvia and Viney rotating through with Watts, Howe and Blease spending time in the midfield

[rpfc 28,779]

It's a good problem to have IF you are willing to make the hard decision.

Dawes, Clark, Hogan, Watts, Gawn/Jamar, and Howe will not be able to play in the same forward line.

Gawn will have to be 1st ruck as Clark will be back up ruck (or the other way around but Clark wants to be a forward). Spencer will have to get 1st ruck to be in the team - he gives little in the forward line.

Dawes is a lead up forward. He is crash and bash and that is fantastic for the development of our new HFF...

Hogan. Just let him have a flank and see how he goes. Don't burden him and never talk about him being anyone's 'hope' or 'saviour' - we are his employers and we will keep him around by getting the most out of him and offering him a good life in Melbourne.

Watts is going to struggle to be in a forward line that has: Clark/Gawn, Dawes, and Hogan as tall targets. If Clark is CHF and Gawn and Spencer are playing Watts has zero chance of playing.

For him to do that Howe will have to stop teasing and turn into the Ryan O'Keefe clone I want him to be, and Watts is going to have to show something up the ground - an ability to find the ball in space across the wing.

Personally, I would be looking at re-signing Watts but if an offer for a desirable mid in a trade for Watts came in I would consider it and do it.

Footy is a brutal game and emotions are important but sometimes the right thing to do is to be ruthless at the right times and this could be one.

[Fat Tony 5,262]

Personally, I would be looking at re-signing Watts but if an offer for a desirable mid in a trade for Watts came in I would consider it and do it.

I don't completely disagree with your analysis, but I doubt we would get a fair trade for Watts and we will have difficulty attracting anyone good.

[CBDees 3,167]

Clark should not be rucking which should be left to Gawn and Fitzy and he should be FF with Dawes as CHF. Howe and Watts should be either on the HF flank, wing or pockets and Hogan next to Dawes. Sylvia adds depth on the wing or going forward and Davey certainly has earned a forward pocket position for next year! Byrnes, Blease and Kent add further forward pocket options with the ability to rotate into the centre or wings.

If the selectors choose Boyd as the best available then we have problems. I would prefer we focus on mids next year on the basis that Clark and Dawes surely couldn't possibly have such a bad run with injuries next year and with Hogan, we need to get them supply, which we currently are unable to do.

[The Chazz 4,077]

B: Garland Frawley <<insert small back>>

HB: Grimes McDonald Terlich

C: Blease Sylvia Trengove

HF: Howe Dawes Watts

F: Hogan Clark <<insert small forward>>

R: <<NFI>> N Jones Viney

I: Toumpas M Jones Kent

S:

* Providing he continues to work on playing both ways, Blease will be perfect on the wing.

* Sylvia should start in the guts.

* I have no idea about rucks - they all offer "something", but is that enough?

* We need a small forward and a small defender. I still have hopes for Jetta to play the small defender. Whoever these 2 positions are, they need to be able to rotate through the midfield.

* Sub could be a number of players, such as Evans, Taggert (hopefully), Clisby, etc. Again, needs to be a midfielder.

I have also bolded the players that didn't play on the weekend. (Nb. Dawes got an appearance fee but was clearly underdone).

[jazza 1,323]

first time ive ever heard anybody admit to an overload of forwards at our club

but yes the ruck division looks ok ish

chb and fb look ok

lots of gravediggers to choose from

so were missing quality mids

[Grimseyisgod 378]

IMO

Hogan is not to be played in the ruck, ever.

Forward line set up

Half Forwards: Sylvia, Howe, Dawes, Trengove floating in there as will Toumpas

Full Forwards: Clark, Watts,Hogan

Small Forwards: Tapscott, Davey, Brynes, Rodan (can play mid), Blease

We have to take into account its going to be very rare that Clark, Watts, Hogan and Dawes will all be fit at once, unfortunately it just doesnt happen often enough

Rucks: Jamar, Spencer, Gawn, Fitzy

Personally out of that group i only like Jamar and Gawn.. but maybe Spencer and Fitzy could flourish into guns, no idea

Our Forward/Ruck line seems pretty promising approaching 2014. If Sylvia were to go it would really kill us in our plans moving forward. Would change Howe's position in my opinion and also forcing someone like Trengove to potentially play Sylvia's role.

Going to be interesting, there's definitely potential

Edited June 24, 2013 by Grimseyisgod

[Grimseyisgod 378]

In my opinion our best group for round 1 2014 is

B: Dean Terlich, James Frawley, Mitch Clisby

HB: Tom Mcdonald, Colin Garland, Jack Grimes

C: Jack Trengove, Jack Viney, Jimmy Toumpas

HF: Colin Sylvia, Chris Dawes, Jack Watts

F: Jesse Hogan, Mitch Clark, Aaron Davey

Rucks: Mark Jamar, Nathan Jones, Mature Aged Pickup/ Free Agency

Extended Bench: Pick 1, 2 or 3 in the draft, Michael Evans, Shannon Brynes, David Rodan, Sam Blease, Jordie Mckenzie, Matt Jones, Luke Tapscott Dean Kent and Jake Spencer

REMEMBER WE WILL HAVE INJURIES

Certain Players i've left out and why:

Cameron Pederson: Is a lazy player and doesn't put his head over the footy and thats pathetic, considering he is huge

James Sellar: looks and plays like a potato

Lynden Dunn: Does not work hard enough to be an AFL player

if you dont agree or i've left anyone out, dont desitate to comment :)

Edited June 24, 2013 by Grimseyisgod

[DeeSpencer 26,081]

there wont be a team in the comp with a more talented, impressive and deep forward line setup in 2014 than us

Hogan, Dawes, Clark, Watts. Howe, .....

Now if we can just get a midfield and a crumbing forward.....

That depends if Franklin leaves Hawthorn. And even if he doesn't Roughead, Hale, Gunston, Bruest, Rioli still beats us. That forward line you named is just too tall and doesn't have the crumbing and pressure required. Maybe if Howe is a full time midfielder it can survive but only if Watts can also rotate into the midfield.

I know this might shock people but I still see a role for Hogan at Casey some games and with a few weeks off. He'll only be 18 turning 19 even with Clark, Dawes and Watts alongside him he needs protection from a huge season.

I know we've just seen Watts start to click as a forward now but I still would love him down back for his ball use and some height on the flanks. Dunn has far from solidified the third tall role, which really should go to Garland and then get Watts playing that intercept flanker with attacking skills role. Forward pressure is always at the hottest at the start of the year before teams drop away so I don't think it's out of the question for Watts to end up back in the long term. He seems to be really starting to understand intensity and physicality right at the moment. I hope it lasts.

[Older demon 2,779]

I think we run the risk of being top heavy. I will be happy to see Clarke out on the park but it is small forwards we need. Rioli, Puopolo, Lewis Jetta, Christensen, Motlop, Wingard, Thomas, Betts, Garlett and Walters I can go on. Some teams have 2 or 3 crumbing forwards around their talls and Naitanui plays like a small. I don't see anyone on our list ready to occupy these positions. Byrne is too small and past it, Davey struggling, Blease a downhill skier and Jetta isn't quick. We need pacey, clever, goal kicking smalls

[pitchfork 181]

There are so many variables in footy...attrition may make this a bunch easier.

But automatic ins: Clark, Hogan, Howe.

I would love if Watts jumps to that, but who knows.

Next years coach will be able to choose who he wants regardless of salary - Dawes, if healthy will be in the team rd 1, but if he can't fit, there will be a chance he gets dropped. Clark's game is too good to sacrifice for the sake of fitting another similar player in - it's not like we can't do with an extra mid.