Don't bag Neeld's recruiting

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

Getting a bit sick of the medias obsession with the perceived flaws in Neelds so called moneyball recruiting in the last draft. This is still being trotted out as a reason Neeld got the boot. The rabid dogs in media say something and all of a sudden ot becomes a fact. He had one draft to make his mark and I recon Neeld and the recruiting team did as good a job as was possible given the constraints of the draft and the fact MFC is not exactly an easy sell.

Jessie Hogan (Who knows but I recon potentially a superstar

Jimmy Toumpas (ditto)

Jack Viney (ditto)

Matt Jones (Been a good pick up and will feature in the Bluey this year)

Dean Kent (Been okay)

Dean Terlich (Ditto M Jones)

David Rodan (Close to the best mid for the last 2 rounds and needed amongst the youngsters, a short gap fix for lack of experience)

Shannon Byrnes (Played some reasonable games, I thought his third quarter against GWS set up the win also a short gap fix for lack of experience)

Chris Dawes (I recon a great leader and combative player and when combined with Hogan and Clark will be a potent weapon)\

We can also thank Neeld for Mitch Clark.

Dont tell me that the above list is worse than the clubs recruiting for the previous 5 years. Have a look on footywire and you will quickly see why the current team is crap and why Neeld needed to get some experience into the club to provide leadership.

Not sure what will happen with the restructure of the football department but I hope the recruiting team Neeld put together stays with the club.

[praha 11,217]

The guy can recruit.

The guy cannot coach,

[13thFlagIsComing 542]

Part of the issue above seems to be the way that Neeld has used these recruits. There has been no genuine game time over multiple weeks given to the Rodan, Byrnes, Pedersen, Gillies quartet for them to get used to the gameplan in match conditions.

We were all looking forward to them showing examples of workrate both off and on the field to educate the younger players the desire required to hunt the ball and defend like your life depended on it.

that hasn't eventuated which caused frustration amongst supporters.

[Strafford 182]

There is some truth to this as it wasn't moneyball. Those using the term moneyball to describe what we did don't really understand the concept, but they do love the catchy term

[P-man 13,366]

I notice certain absences in your list - Gillies, Pedersen, Sellar..

Overall I'd say he gets a tick on recruiting. You can argue about the obvious choices in Toumpas, Viney, even Hogan..but if the likes of Jones, Dawes and Terlich are in the team when it is anything resembling a success, we will tip our hat to Neeld.

[DeeZee 7,347]

Without Neeld we would never have gotten Mitch or Dawesy to the club.

[grant 10]

The Club Killer kept spending bank to bring in big forwards so we could shank the ball loooooong to.

No sign of life in the mid field just VFL attempts & moneyball.

[grant 10]

Demons coach Mark Neeld revealed his recruiting strategy in an interview with the Herald Sun.

"I like Moneyball," he said.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/melbourne-to-use-moneyball-approach-in-recruiting-cheaper-players-at-end-of-season/story-fndv7pj3-1226405962335

[stuie 7,374]

Soooooooo Neeld should get credit for a job mostly done by other people?

When will the apologists stop.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,012]

Soooooooo Neeld should get credit for a job mostly done by other people?

When will the apologists stop.

Soooooooo, it's ok to blame Neeld if you don't like the way we recruited, but you can't give him credit for the good ones we've picked up?

When will the bashers stop?

[Grimes Times 1,278]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dees-cupboard-is-not-completely-bare-20130617-2odk8.html

For a more balanced and IMO correct read this form Emma Quale.

[ignition. 1,454]

I agree, I think his recruiting was alright.

As for the young bloods Hogan looks very impressive, Toumpas I would have then taken at 2 (we got him at 4), Viney F/S he organized the slide post GWS and GC picks, and Kent I think is absolutely brilliant for where he was selected - I like how he isn't afraid to take the game or opponents on - I've said it many times if he didn't get the Bali belly and made the WA side we wouldn't have got him. In regards to Barry I was actually a little disappointed - firstly because I didn't know much about him and he generally didn't rate that highly, and secondly when I heard the Hawks traded for Jed Anderson I was wishing we acquired him instead.

As for Matt Jones and Dean Terlich again excellent selections for where we got them. Good ready to go players that make up some depth we desperately need, also at a good age where they will continue to improve and impress.

As for the recycled mature age AFL fellas, Dawes has obviously impressed with his leadership and aggression in the forward line, I have also been somewhat impressed by Byrnes - at times when I've seen him with the ball I have instantly said "that looks very Geelong like" in regards to the way he took the game on, he just lacked the players around him in order to dispose the ball efficiently. It appears his leadership and attitude at the club has also been valued. As for Rodan I do think he is a mistake and did when I heard we drafted him, and Pedersen I was actually pleased when we got him although he has failed to live up to his expectations.

Neeld's 2011 draft: First things first, lets start by saying it was considered one of the worst drafts in quite some time, it was considered to have a very poor depth that didn't span much further than the top 10 and GWS had already obtained Treloar and Cameron (considered as likely top 3 selections). Neeld used our first pick at 13 in a trade to obtain Mitch Clark, that was probably his best move. He then obtained Taggert, Tynan, and Sellar by which none have really impressed and I honestly can't see them having long AFL careers. Although in relation to that weak draft not many of those later picks from other clubs have really eventuated.

EDIT*: Thanks for the reminder of Gillies, obviously a shocker and likely a rushed decision after the loss of Rivers. I wish time was taken to recruit a quality VFL (or equivalent) mature key defender.

Overall I think the recruiting the last two years has been pretty good despite 4 odd names, where Neeld has lacked is his development, ability to build good rapport with the players, and to translate training drills and match simulation to game day.

Edited June 18, 2013 by ignition.

[stuie 7,374]

Soooooooo, it's ok to blame Neeld if you don't like the way we recruited, but you can't give him credit for the good ones we've picked up?

When will the bashers stop?

I always thought he was the coach, not the head recruiter... Wonder why we fired him then if he was such a good recruiter?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The last I saw Todd Viney was the recruiting manager.

A coach can designate the type of player he wants, its up to the recruiting guys to make the selection.

I agree, I think his recruiting was alright.

......

Neeld's 2011 draft: First things first, lets start by saying it was considered one of the worst drafts in quite some time, it was considered to have a very poor depth that didn't span much further than the top 10 and GWS had already obtained Treloar and Cameron (considered as likely top 3 selections). Neeld used our first pick at 13 in a trade to obtain Mitch Clark, that was probably his best move. He then obtained Taggert, Tynan, and Sellar by which none have really impressed and I honestly can't see them having long AFL careers. Although in relation to that weak draft not many of those later picks from other clubs have really eventuated.

Any chance Todd Viney and others may have been involved beside Neeld in the use of the Scully compo picks?

At this stage its too early to call if any of the past two drafts are going to be stars but Sellars, Byrnes, Rodan, Gillies and Pedersen are poor for mine and those not contracted in 2014 should go.

Both Tynan and Taggert have been injured during their two years and that may have held them back.

Clark was a trade at pick 12 and not a draft pick. While Neeld deserves credit for his involvement there, Clarks foot injury could make this expensive trade a dud. I hope not.

[P-man 13,366]

Todd Viney doesn't work in an insolation booth. I think it's a bit much to not give Neeld due credit for recruiting decisions. As senior coach he would've played an important role, particularly in convincing the likes of Dawes and Clark to sign.

[Strafford 182]

Demons coach Mark Neeld revealed his recruiting strategy in an interview with the Herald Sun.

"I like Moneyball," he said.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/melbourne-to-use-moneyball-approach-in-recruiting-cheaper-players-at-end-of-season/story-fndv7pj3-1226405962335

Haha. He doesn't really understand the concept either, although to be fair he did mention it wasn't only moneyball. Considering we gave pretty good deals to a number of these guys would fly in the face of moneyball principles. Dawes, Clark, Pederson, Gillies etc. Byrnes and Rodan in for experience, but even

Byrnes has a reasonable deal. Terlich, M.Jones etc even Sellars perhaps do qualify, but are we a mile

under the salary cap? Are the guys we got in cheapies? Half the guys we got in were still kids. Were these guys really statistically undervalued? As many have found baseball have a few things unique to the sport that make moneyball easier to apply to it.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Strafford

[ignition. 1,454]

The last I saw Todd Viney was the recruiting manager.

A coach can designate the type of player he wants, its up to the recruiting guys to make the selection.

Any chance Todd Viney and others may have been involved beside Neeld in the use of the Scully compo picks?

At this stage its too early to call if any of the past two drafts are going to be stars but Sellars, Byrnes, Rodan, Gillies and Pedersen are poor for mine and those not contracted in 2014 should go.

Both Tynan and Taggert have been injured during their two years and that may have held them back.

Clark was a trade at pick 12 and not a draft pick. While Neeld deserves credit for his involvement there, Clarks foot injury could make this expensive trade a dud. I hope not.

I'm not the one gunning down "Neeld's poor recruiting" the media is and of course my point being is they including Viney did it reasonably well (aside from some stated above).

If Tynan and Taggert have been injured this whole time why is it that they have played plenty of games at Casey whilst we have such a "poor list" and they can't crack the side? Better yet on numerous occasions they have been dropped back to the development league in particular Tynan, and the likes of Kent who has come in a year later has played more senior games combined. Neither are of AFL standard and it won't surprise me if they are delisted at the end of the year when they are out of contract (or at most given 1 year extensions with a new coach).

As for Clark, if you read my statement correctly I stated he was a trade, although my apologies it was for pick 12 not 13. Although it's bloody idiotic to take into account his lisfranc tear as poor recruiting or a "dud" trade because he landed awkwardly on someones foot in a game of footy having previously kicked 4 goals in the match. In relation to this I think it was a poor decision by Mick Malthouse last weekend to play Marc Murphy in the midfield and around the ball because he got his jaw broken... get a grip mate!

[pitmaster 3,474]

He clearly recruited for the long term future with Hogan and it was down to him that we won over Mitch Clark. It is a shame for Neeld's sake that his twin towers of Clark and Dawes were never out there together and down the track we will owe him for these three big forwards, assuming Mitch's foot does finally come good.

[jnrmac 19,931]

There is some truth to this as it wasn't moneyball. Those using the term moneyball to describe what we did don't really understand the concept, but they do love the catchy term

Fills a headline.....

[Strafford 182]

As for Clark, if you read my statement correctly I stated he was a trade, although my apologies it was for pick 12 not 13. Although it's bloody idiotic to take into account his lisfranc tear as poor recruiting or a "dud" trade because he landed awkwardly on someones foot in a game of footy having previously kicked 4 goals in the match. In relation to this I think it was a poor decision by Mick Malthouse last weekend to play Marc Murphy in the midfield and around the ball because he got his jaw broken... get a grip mate!

Yep injuries can't be factored into these things unless they are known issues.

[DeeSpencer 24,904]

The title of this thread should be don't blame Neeld's failure on the recruiting.

Frankly Gillies, Rodan and Pedersen are a bit of a disaster. Gillies and Pedersen would make more sense if we didn't already have Sellar but we do. And surely Rodan and Gillies are gone at the end of the year anyway.

But regardless it's not these players who have led to Neeld's undoing. Really it was the failure to sell his message that the elite culture he had apparently created was going to produce results.

Neeld should've done one of two things:
1. Kept Moloney and Rivers and won more games

2. Got rid of Moloney and Rivers and won more games!

[RalphiusMaximus 6,012]

As for the young bloods Hogan looks very impressive, Toumpas I would have then taken at 2 (we got him at 4), Viney F/S he organized the slide post GWS and GC picks, and Kent I think is absolutely brilliant for where he was selected - I like how he isn't afraid to take the game or opponents on - I've said it many times if he didn't get the Bali belly and made the WA side we wouldn't have got him. In regards to Barry I was actually a little disappointed - firstly because I didn't know much about him and he generally didn't rate that highly, and secondly when I heard the Hawks traded for Jed Anderson I was wishing we acquired him instead.

Interesting little article from earlier in the year talks about his u18 season a little.

Kent played for Western Australia in the NAB AFL under 16 championships, but was surprisingly overlooked for the state under 18s, given he went on to win the Jack Clarke Medal (the Brownlow Medal equivalent in the WAFL Colts), was named in the Colts team of the year and claimed the coaches’ award, where the opposition coaches vote on the best player. He was also up there in the WAFL Colts goalkicking table.

Asked why he missed out on representing his state last year, Kent said “there was some debate about it”.

“They didn’t think my fitness was up to scratch, but they kept bringing people in and I never got a call up,” he said.

“My coaches were hammering the state coaches and they couldn’t give an explanation about it and they couldn’t tell me why. I was seven games into the season and averaging 25 touches a game and they still couldn’t give us a reason.

Personally I think we have to send a card or something to the WA selectors. As you say, there's no way this kid would have slipped so far if he'd been picked for WA. Aside from his willingness to take on opponents and a pretty good kick, he's willing to put his body on the line. How many times have we seen him run back with the flight and get a hand to the ball in front of an oncoming opponent? Sooner or later he's going to get flattened doing that, but we love to see it.

[Bimbo 940]

So the list is now worse than when Neeld took over, is it?

2011 2013

Those Players now on other lists: Handy recruits by jumper numbers

Warnock (hardly playing) Hogan

Gysbert (moderate VFL form) Toumpas

Rivers (injured) Dawes

Moloney (somewhere between Brownlow to waste of space) Viney

Bennell (Somewhere in the West) Clark

Morton (Ditto) Kent

Petterd (played a bit though moderately) Jones M

Scully (had one good game - last week) Terlich

Martin (Think injured)

If it is best out v best in - the new lot are far far better.

competing for seniors Competing for seniors

Bate Pedersen

Seller

Magner

If it is out v ins - ins have it

Waste of Space when left Dont know

Maric Tynan

Cook Barry

Newton Taggert

McNamara Couch

Lawrence Stark

Johnston Clisby

Still prefer the right hand side

Retired or playing in NT Old recruits

Bartram (real loss) Byrnes

Green Rodan

Jurrah

Wanaemirri

Campbell

LHS could not now play. RHS may add something more than two 18 yo recruits drafted about number 80

Others

Gillies

Cant quite see what he brings to the list.

I cannot see how it can be suggested that the current list is worse than that in 2011. When potential is taken into account (talk particularly Toumpas and Viney), and consider leadership, I do not follow the suggestion that Neeld has left a worse list.

I accept that some may move players from category to category but the important group is the top one and I do not believe there is any comparison.

[stuie 7,374]

Look, I like the analysis, but if you're going to take injuries and games played into account then at least be balanced:

So the list is now worse than when Neeld took over, is it?

2011 2013

Those Players now on other lists: Handy recruits by jumper numbers

Warnock (hardly playing) Hogan (can't play this year)

Gysbert (moderate VFL form) Toumpas (injured and needs development)

Rivers (injured) Dawes (mostly injured)

Moloney (somewhere between Brownlow to waste of space) Viney (injured)

Bennell (Somewhere in the West) Clark (injured, possibly done for good)

Morton (Ditto) Kent (hardly played so far)

Petterd (played a bit though moderately) Jones M

Scully (had one good game - last week) Terlich

Martin (Think injured)

[ignition. 1,454]

So the list is now worse than when Neeld took over, is it?

2011 2013

Those Players now on other lists: Handy recruits by jumper numbers

Warnock (hardly playing) Hogan

Gysbert (moderate VFL form) Toumpas

Rivers (injured) Dawes

Moloney (somewhere between Brownlow to waste of space) Viney

Bennell (Somewhere in the West) Clark

Morton (Ditto) Kent

Petterd (played a bit though moderately) Jones M

Scully (had one good game - last week) Terlich

Martin (Think injured)

If it is best out v best in - the new lot are far far better.

competing for seniors Competing for seniors

Bate Pedersen

Seller

Magner

If it is out v ins - ins have it

Waste of Space when left Dont know

Maric Tynan

Cook Barry

Newton Taggert

McNamara Couch

Lawrence Stark

Johnston Clisby

Still prefer the right hand side

Retired or playing in NT Old recruits

Bartram (real loss) Byrnes

Green Rodan

Jurrah

Wanaemirri

Campbell

LHS could not now play. RHS may add something more than two 18 yo recruits drafted about number 80

Others

Gillies

Cant quite see what he brings to the list.

I cannot see how it can be suggested that the current list is worse than that in 2011. When potential is taken into account (talk particularly Toumpas and Viney), and consider leadership, I do not follow the suggestion that Neeld has left a worse list.

I accept that some may move players from category to category but the important group is the top one and I do not believe there is any comparison.

You broke that down quite nicely.

I agree particularly with your upper half, even though you can't really include injuries I did find Russel Robertson's quote the other day regarding an issue with Martin that he didn't elaborate on as interesting.

To me the biggest loss was Jurrah, I only wish the club had the structures in place to have helped guide him and and home life.

Furthermore under your Waste of Space section I would consider every player on both sides within that bracket excluding Tom Couch, I would like to see him on the senior list getting more of a run bar 1 odd game.