Neeld is not the problem

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

I think many of us have learnt a lot about list management and psychology during the disastrous Neeld appointment. In time, there should be chapters in sports books on Neeld's time at Melbourne so sporting organisations learn what not do.

I'm the first to admit that I was in favour of some of Neeld's decisions. I now question the implementation and the merits of many of those decisions. The essence of being a coach is getting the best out of individuals. The best coaches focus on what a player does well, whereas some coaches become fixated by what they do poorly. The best coaches build a player up and stroke sometimes fragile egos. They tell them that they believe in them. They'll also make the hard call, but my suspicion is that Neeld didn't positively engage many players. It beggars belief that he never had a one-on-one with Moloney. It beggars belief that he came into the club from day one and said he had no interest in his players liking him. Contrast that attitude with Ken Hinkley, who said to Kane Cornes, "I'm here to extend your career". Cornes is back to career best form. Players often have plenty of self-doubt, especially at AFL level where they're under the media and community microscope, so it's imperative that they think the coach believes in them. That they're told by the coach that he believes in them. Moloney confirmed the opposite to be true. He knew the coach didn't rate him.

The failings that Neeld saw in Gysberts, Morton, Bennell and Petterd were the same I saw. So naturally when they were moved on I wasn't outraged because I knew why. But on closer thought I'd like to know how he engaged with those players. Getting rid of Cook and Bate was a no brainer. Cook showed that he was barely VFL level and Bate was older and easier to assess. But Gysberts, a former pick 11, had won two RS nominations. He was only 20. He had shown he had AFL talent. Yes, he had faults, but in a team with the worst midfield in living memory would a Ken Hinkley come in and have said, "I rate you. I see your talent and what you can do. We have areas to work on, but I reckon we can make you an important part of our midfield moving forward." For the life of me I can't see Neeld establishing that type of rapport. Gysberts hasn't played a game for North, but he's in their top 25 or 26. They've got a good midfield and I can't help feeling we should have persisted with him, especially considering the state of ours. Petterd nearly won a game against Collingwood on QB. He's shown he has AFL talent. Yes, we also know his faults, and he turns it over by foot, but we also know his courage and marking ability. We got nothing for him. The same with Morton. And I know plenty of posters won't agree and Lord knows I can be critical of players, but here's a former pick 4, who is still young, who has shown AFL talent in his first couple of years, and we dump him for pick 88. In essence we dump him for Rodan. We'd got games into him and I can't help feeling that he was worth more than one year under a new coach. Bennell was soft and I supported getting rid of him. But I also recognise we have no decent small forwards yet the game is crying out for them. Bennell does have talent despite his failings. Was he told that we thought we could develop him into the small forward we need and reckon he can become ? I'm not advocating mollycoddling players, I'm advocating believing in them and teaching them to believe in themselves. If it's proven they're not good enough so be it, but we got rid of young players that had definitely shown at stages they've looked comfortable at the highest level.

For me it's crystal clear that Neeld isn't a nurturer. It's clear that his hard-nosed approach backfired the moment he walked through the door. He bemoans the age of our list, yet he has virtually single-handedly caused that inexperience and young age by jettisoning so many players. Morton is still young, but he'd played over 70 games. I don't believe that we needed a "rebuild of a rebuild". I believe we needed a coach that could embrace the talents of many of the players at his disposal and improve them. Sure, you have to turn some over, but he rid himself of young players that had shown something at AFL level. And we're poorer for it. In fact, we poorer for him walking through the front door.

Thank you for contributing a really good discussion piece BH - i am not being insincere about that

I really do think you have a pretty balanced opinion and you know your stuff when it comes to talking about talent.

What really disappoints me about this post is you don't mention players Neeld has brought in that are buying in and will develop to be the core of the side

Gysberts is probably (most likely apart form Moloney and rivers who lefr through FA) that will have an impact at AFL level for another club

Watts, Sylvia and Frawley are the interesting ones - can Neeld keep them and get them to buy in??? I reckon 2 out of the 3 will go (just a hunch). Without turning this in to a Watts thread Neeld and Bailey have not gotten mcuh out of Watts - Watts reminds me of Gysberts in that respect

A massive loss if he goes but a Massive drafting blunder more likely - And they were not Neeld's fault

As I've mentioned it's a fine line between development and competitiveness - Neeld has failed at competitiveness he can only hang his hat on development - hes got 10 weeks to prove everyone wrong otherwise he will be gone

Edited June 5, 2013 by Unleash Hell

[Strafford 182]

Sorry I didn't initially read your post properly on my first reply - (I shouldn't rush )

What more can I say then we are rebuilding - Mature age recruits may be physically ready but are they 100% AFL ready??

I am not gonig to argue with you as I don't know what Neelds intentions are with recruiting these players - we can only guess.... I assume we are rebuilding and he wanted mature bodies to help provide a contest without relying on 18 yo kids

Some have failed some look good and that's AFL footy

No you shouldn't rush mate. Yet you continually do

In the mean time I will wait until Matty Jones has played 100 games, because I know he will be good then. To be honest I don't think you are getting where I am coming from.

[Hannibal 5,814]

This reads really nicely, but it's based on mainly speculation and assumptions.

You don't know what he said or didn't say to Gysberts. You don't know that he didn't come in in 2011 and say 'I think you have talent', but was more than underwhelmed at his laziness, for example. I'm not saying that's the case, but you can't say that anything you've said is true, aside from snipes taken from a clearly bitter Moloney.

Also, your statement that Gysberts is top 25 at North Melbourne is utter crap. He's hardly top 30, he can't get a game despite them having had injuries/suspensions.

Well that's nice. Until you realise that you've arbitrarily picked two groups of four players to make a point.

What would you say if I said 'Gysberts, Morton, Bennell and Petterd or Toumpas, Viney, Terlich, Hogan'? I'll pre-empt your 'but Morton was for Rodan' criticism and allow you to put Rodan instead of Hogan into the latter group. The latter group still wins, by a country mile.

The only proper way to analyse list management is holistically.

From afar we can only join the dots.

*Players constantly talk of "buying in", which clearly insinuates many haven't. *Moloney, the reigning B&F winner, never has a one-on-one with the coach despite playing 4 games down at Casey. Would you think the coach would enunciate what he wants to work on and keep his morale up ? *Rivers spoke of being disenchanted at being removed from the leadership group in place of youth without really being able to prove himself. *Neeld says in his first speech that he has no interest in his players liking him. He was successful beyond his imagination. When that type of comment is made it's obvious that you're not emotionally connecting with your players. A distinct lack of respect and empathy. It's little wonder supporters have noted a lack of effort on game-day by the playing group. *Former AFL players, who are the best to judge the psyche of a group from afar, don't believe the players are playing for the coach.

So, it may be joining the dots, but any sane human being can reasonably form a conclusion that Neeld hasn't connected with his players on an individual level. You don't seem to find that notion palatable and no doubt hope it's wrong, but in my opinion the circumstantial evidence, as well as some of the facts, clearly says otherwise.

How some supporters can find excuses for and wave away the worst team performance by any established club in 30 years is extraordinary. I wonder how bad it would have to be for some of you to acknowledge that we've made an error of shocking proportions.

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

No you shouldn't rush mate. Yet you continually do

In the mean time I will wait until Matty Jones has played 100 games, because I know he will be good then. To be honest I don't think you are getting where I am coming from.

So much abuse so little time

I can't argue for Neeld and his policies, I don't think he's made the right decisions every time - All I am saying in this thread is I don't think he is 100% to blame that we are a developing side and it will take time to rebuild

There are so many factors to decisions and I don't have the enthusiasm to go through them all.... All I continue and will continue to say is we are fielding a development side most weeks - improvement will take time

[ThreeOneSix 953]

Mark McLure, stop talking soo much goddam sense, for christs sakes.

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

I CBF anymore with this....

The club has been poor for years - yes we have been more successful in the past (yo yo one year up one year down)

Then we had tanking and all the other crap - We've had a pretty poor culture at this club for a very long time - Not even rumors it's obvious that the list lacked development, AFL fitness and standards

So the club get an untried coach in Neeld to fix everything - Now the club and eveyone says it's his fault when he's dong what he's been told to do. Expectations were that we'd be more competitive we aren't, we had holes in the list before Neeld and we have holes in the list now and people expect wins now

I don't know for sure if Neeld is the man to lead us out of this rut - I can only put my faith in the board to make the right decisions - The board are responsible for this

People you can judge our performance and you're not wrong in saying Neeld has failed - but there is no way if you know for sure if we are on the right track or not - NO ONE can realiably assess development or if key areas of recruiting, coaching and development have improved because there simply hasn't been enough time

That is simple fact

.

Most of you won't agree and i don't care but this club needs leadership from the top the Board more then anything else at the moment - year end will take care of the important structures and coaching issues

I will continue to post but can't be bothered with this anymore

Cheers lads enjoy

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

lastly apologies if i offended anyone that was not my intention - I am a passionate supporter/member

I like you guys and girls want to see us back in the 8 where we belong soon rather then later as well

Cheers lads

[Gorgoroth 12,325]

We all are mate, I take nothing personally, I try to be a little funny from time to time (my humour is prob not everyone else's)

We just have different views and most of the time when reading on boards it's harder to take other views than it does when conversing in person.

I truly hope Neeld turns this all around from this week onwards.

[Strafford 182]

So much abuse so little time

I can't argue for Neeld and his policies, I don't think he's made the right decisions every time - All I am saying in this thread is I don't think he is 100% to blame that we are a developing side and it will take time to rebuild

There are so many factors to decisions and I don't have the enthusiasm to go through them all.... All I continue and will continue to say is we are fielding a development side most weeks - improvement will take time

It is not abuse merely an observation

I think that is the second post of mine that you have apologised for jumping in or rushing your reading, perhaps even third.You are in such a rush to defend that I'm not sure that you are taking in the entirety of peoples arguments.

If I wanted to abuse you I think I could do a better job of it, absolutely no attempt on my part to get around the swear filter lol

[DemonFrog 1,347]

lastly apologies if i offended anyone that was not my intention - I am a passionate supporter/member

I like you guys and girls want to see us back in the 8 where we belong soon rather then later as well

Cheers lads

What this about only being in the 8, I want to see the MFC win another 12 Premierships within the next 20 years (need to leave something for the other Clubs supporters). But will settle with the being in the 8 next year, NO PRESSURE!

Nothing wrong with being passionate as it really great to see.

Keep it up Mate!

[Hardnut 327]

The Club certainly does need leadership from the top 'Unleash Hell', but it has not occurred to date.

As for 'year's end', the Club cannot afford to wait that long!

As for the selection of MN as an untried coach - MFC were clear that they wanted an experienced coach - why then did they panic and appoint an untried coach, and why MN when there were several other possibilities?

Sure, you may say hindsight is a wonderful thing, but IMO the Board has a lot to answer for in this situation.

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

It is not abuse merely an observation

I think that is the second post of mine that you have apologised for jumping in or rushing your reading, perhaps even third.You are in such a rush to defend that I'm not sure that you are taking in the entirety of peoples arguments.

If I wanted to abuse you I think I could do a better job of it, absolutely no attempt on my part to get around the swear filter lol

Once again I've failed in my replies haha

I've just found it hard to have rational thought while trying to compete with so many opinions Do enjoy the debate and banter at Demonland but am going to live my life a little for a while

What I should have said is I haven't got the energy to give your post the respect in reply it deserved

I will be there QB to support the boys and will be back to post - but am argued out

Enjoy lads and ladies - Go Dees

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

The Club certainly does need leadership from the top 'Unleash Hell', but it has not occurred to date.

As for 'year's end', the Club cannot afford to wait that long!

As for the selection of MN as an untried coach - MFC were clear that they wanted an experienced coach - why then did they panic and appoint an untried coach, and why MN when there were several other possibilities?

Sure, you may say hindsight is a wonderful thing, but IMO the Board has a lot to answer for in this situation.

lack of forseigh and leadership hardnut

Either back Neeld in or kick him out I say - there are good arguments for either. Either say we are developing and let him do his job otherwise fire him as it's obvious to everyone that he hasn't achieved anything short term

Thats probably the biggest thing we have missed - this direction was the club's decision and we are all taking it out on Neeld, it is unjust

Edited June 5, 2013 by Unleash Hell

[titan_uranus 22,366]

From afar we can only join the dots.

*Players constantly talk of "buying in", which clearly insinuates many haven't. *Moloney, the reigning B&F winner, never has a one-on-one with the coach despite playing 4 games down at Casey. Would you think the coach would enunciate what he wants to work on and keep his morale up ? *Rivers spoke of being disenchanted at being removed from the leadership group in place of youth without really being able to prove himself. *Neeld says in his first speech that he has no interest in his players liking him. He was successful beyond his imagination. When that type of comment is made it's obvious that you're not emotionally connecting with your players. A distinct lack of respect and empathy. It's little wonder supporters have noted a lack of effort on game-day by the playing group. *Former AFL players, who are the best to judge the psyche of a group from afar, don't believe the players are playing for the coach.

So, it may be joining the dots, but any sane human being can reasonably form a conclusion that Neeld hasn't connected with his players on an individual level. You don't seem to find that notion palatable and no doubt hope it's wrong, but in my opinion the circumstantial evidence, as well as some of the facts, clearly says otherwise.

How some supporters can find excuses for and wave away the worst team performance by any established club in 30 years is extraordinary. I wonder how bad it would have to be for some of you to acknowledge that we've made an error of shocking proportions.

I don't think that, because you're joining dots, you're wrong. I happen to agree with you in that I think Neeld is a poor coach and shouldn't be here in 2014. I agree that he has communication issues, and I agree that he has made mistakes in his approach. I do find it 'palatable', but yes, I do hope it's wrong - don't we all? Don't we all hope that, in actuality, the players and Neeld get along as well as could be hoped and that Neeld's vision is going to actually turn this club around?

For every comment that has been made by a player regarding 'buying in', surely there's been another one about backing Neeld. If you want to believe them on one point, believe them on all points. I'd be hesitant to put stock in anything Moloney has said this year, being as bitter as he is. Reminds me of McLean's approach. Rivers' point, though, is a valid and pertinent one.

Also, I wonder whether it's appropriate to say we've made a mistake - obviously Neeld isn't working out right now, but to say it was a 'mistake' is to imply that we could have known better. After the Bailey era of softness I was hoping the new coach would bring an element of toughness to the club - yes, Neeld appears on the face of things to have taken that too far, but that aside, at the time I (and you, I think, and many others) applauded the move. To now, 18 months later, say it was a 'mistake' isn't exactly true. It hasn't worked out, sure, and we are bad, yes, but it's not a 'mistake'.

[Hardnut 327]

lack of forseigh and leadership hardnut

Either back Neeld in or kick him out I say - there are good arguments for either. Either say we are developing and let him do his job otherwise fire him as it's obvious to everyone that he hasn't achieved anything short term

Thats probably the biggest thing we have missed - this direction was the club's decision and we are all taking it out on Neeld, it is unjust

I agree the problem was created by the Club, but the reality now is that MN must go and quickly.

[Hardnut 327]

I don't think that, because you're joining dots, you're wrong. I happen to agree with you in that I think Neeld is a poor coach and shouldn't be here in 2014. I agree that he has communication issues, and I agree that he has made mistakes in his approach. I do find it 'palatable', but yes, I do hope it's wrong - don't we all? Don't we all hope that, in actuality, the players and Neeld get along as well as could be hoped and that Neeld's vision is going to actually turn this club around?

For every comment that has been made by a player regarding 'buying in', surely there's been another one about backing Neeld. If you want to believe them on one point, believe them on all points. I'd be hesitant to put stock in anything Moloney has said this year, being as bitter as he is. Reminds me of McLean's approach. Rivers' point, though, is a valid and pertinent one.

Also, I wonder whether it's appropriate to say we've made a mistake - obviously Neeld isn't working out right now, but to say it was a 'mistake' is to imply that we could have known better. After the Bailey era of softness I was hoping the new coach would bring an element of toughness to the club - yes, Neeld appears on the face of things to have taken that too far, but that aside, at the time I (and you, I think, and many others) applauded the move. To now, 18 months later, say it was a 'mistake' isn't exactly true. It hasn't worked out, sure, and we are bad, yes, but it's not a 'mistake'.

The Club should have known better - one would have to question whether due diligence was done - was it a mistake or just simple incompetence, especially given the stated aims of the Club for an experienced coach and the availability of other rookie candidates.

[bing181 8,167]

In the post-match discussions on here, there are always a fair number of posters decrying the likes of Nicholson, Bail, Sellar etc., as not being AFL standard. Yet, in these discussions, somehow the fact that they're not performing to an AFL standard is because Neeld has communication issues?

[bing181 8,167]

*Moloney, the reigning B&F winner, never has a one-on-one with the coach ....

Well, I call BS on that. You only have to go back to the Mifsud affair, which was all about the fact that Neeld met all the players individually, but met the aboriginal players as a group.

"Jason Mifsud told Grant Thomas that Neeld was alleged to have held individual pre-season meetings with all non-indigenous players ...."

[Redleg 37,618]

4 players on a list will not will not change our fortunes one way or another long term

Do you really believe that?

Ablett, Watson, Cotchin, Rioli.

Of course 4 players could change our fortunes.

[Redleg 37,618]

I see 3 issues as at the heart of our problem. The first I am certain of, the next two I think are possibly correct.

1. We have a pathetic midfield.

2. MN has lost the players.

3. MN can't coach an AFL side.

PS. In the last 18 months I have not seen any evidence to refute the 3 propositions.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Redleg

[DemonFrog 1,347]

I see 3 issues as at the heart of our problem. The first I am certain of, the next two I think are possibly correct.

1. We have a pathetic midfield.

2. MN has lost the players.

3. MN can't coach an AFL side.

PS. In the last 18 months I have not seen any evidence to refute the 3 propositions.

I have recently heard somewhere that Peter Jackson was quoted as saying the MFC football department is in such a state that he could not tell if MN can coach or not.

If this statement is true then that scares me more then the fact MN is the coach.

[H_T 2,941]

I see 3 issues as at the heart of our problem. The first I am certain of, the next two I think are possibly correct.

1. We have a pathetic midfield.

Ranked 18th. Hasn't improved in the last 6 years and has gone backwards in experience, nous, clout, skill, age, and any other variable you can think of. People are kidding themselves if they're dismissive of just how influential a good midfield can be in regards to an outcome of a game. Too many here are dismissive of it. And people wonder why we aren't competitive in contested possessions, clearances, yet so significant are the clangers, turnovers and broken tackles.

Re: Neeld

This has become more and more evident. The lack of improvement in players that have been there 3-5 years now is just staggering.

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

Do you really believe that?

Ablett, Watson, Cotchin, Rioli.

Of course 4 players could change our fortunes.

Context Redleg

We are not talking about those 4 we are talking about the 8 u mentioned - c'mon mate poor

[titan_uranus 22,366]

Ranked 18th. Hasn't improved in the last 6 years and has gone backwards in experience, nous, clout, skill, age, and any other variable you can think of. People are kidding themselves if they're dismissive of just how influential a good midfield can be in regards to an outcome of a game. Too many here are dismissive of it. And people wonder why we aren't competitive in contested possessions, clearances, yet so significant are the clangers, turnovers and broken tackles.

Absolute crap, anyone on here who doesn't realise how insipid our midfield is is clearly in a tiny minority.

We all know that our midfield is abysmal.

Edit: Also, in the last few weeks we've actually been rather competitive in contested possessions and clearances. So I don't know which 'people' you're referring to.

Edited June 6, 2013 by titan_uranus

[Choko 493]

Absolute crap, anyone on here who doesn't realise how insipid our midfield is is clearly in a tiny majority.

We all know that our midfield is abysmal.

Edit: Also, in the last few weeks we've actually been rather competitive in contested possessions and clearances. So I don't know which 'people' you're referring to.

It's not crap. Firstly, there's quite a few here who seriously thought we were a team due to be on the up in 2012. Secondly, of those who recognise that we have a shocking midfield, I would say any who are focusing on Neeld are by extension under-estimating how bad our midfield is and how unlikely it is that we can win games with this midfield.

Our midfield is that bad by any reckoning that whoever assembled it ought to be sued in negligence. Seriously. And the way footy is played this year, it is even harder than ever to counter a bad midfield.

Most people still don't get it.