Neeld is not the problem

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

Unleash Hell – do you seriously expect me to buy your argument that because we were also 1-9 at this stage last year, we are at the same level? It's not just about wins and losses, it's about how you perform week to week. I've been to every game in Melbourne this year and I also went to the game at the Gabba and my impression from watching us is that we are playing worse footy this year than last year. And I'd be pretty confident that most supporters would agree that we've gone backwards in 2013.

I know where we're at and understand our list deficiencies. That's why my expectations were so low this year. But under Neeld in 2013 we have failed miserably to even meet these low expectations. We have managed to go completely backwards from an extremely low base.

It is frightening how accepting some of our supporters are of what has been dished up this year.

You missed my argument by a long long way Scoop - my reference to the 1 - 9 start this year is solely based on your observation that we are worse off then last year.

I will keep it simple as you seem to dodge the questions - who out of our 10 games we've played this year do you reasonably think we are a better side then?

Also if the improvement you are after isn't translated on field but is put in to the practices off field so that players who 'buy in' are set up for the future is that really as damaging as you make it out to be? Especially when we as a club are competing against clubs which are years advanced of us....

In summary you expect bloke who have played 0, 1 or even 2 years of AFL footy to step in and lead this club - that is not reality and those blokes make up at least half of our team each week

You judgement of Neeld is based on your expectations - you say it so yourself

At least look to see what he is bring to the club and where the club is at before making such judgements. Neeld is meant to be bring elitel performance and standards off the field as well - I would be upset if he wasn't meeting those standards - because once they are in place and the MINIMUM expectations have been set as Dawes points out in multiple press conferences then you have a platform to judge realiably

Edited June 5, 2013 by Unleash Hell

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

You missed my argument by a long long way Scoop - my reference to the 1 - 9 start this year is solely based on your observation that we are worse off then last year.

I will keep it simple as you seem to dodge the questions - who out of our 10 games we've played this year do you reasonably think we are a better side then?

Also if the improvement you are after isn't translated on field but is put in to the practices off field so that players who 'buy in' are set up for the future is that really as damaging as you make it out to be? Especially when we as a club are competing against clubs which are years advanced of us....

In summary you expect bloke who have played 0, 1 or even 2 years of AFL footy to step in and lead this club - that is not reality and those blokes make up at least half of our team each week

So again, you are saying we are unique. If we were in a perfect footy world, your argument may carry some weight, but we are not in that world. Given we are faced with a woeful acceptance in the market place, we simply don't have the time to do what you claim is being done. It has gone too far now.

Scoop is 100% correct, no-one expected a massive turnaround in performance, but even some semblance of commitment would be enough for most supporters. You do not get flogged by an average of 12 goals, week in week out, with a playing group that has bought into the coach's message, even if they cannot deliver it when required. Right now, it is scary how people are staying away in their thousands. Hawthorn President, Andrew Newbold, on radio this week, commented that he couldn't believe the lack of atmosphere at the 'G on Sunday.

Those that profess we are on the right track and say we should simply wait until the rebuild has at least a super structure in place, are not understanding the reality of the AFL football world as it stands in the modern era. Jackson has not come into the CEO role just because he's a nice guy and just wanted the help out. He is a head kicker and heads will surely be kicked and it won't be just Neeld's

Anybody who accepts what is currently occurring, does so at the Club's peril.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

So again, you are saying we are unique. If we were in a perfect footy world, your argument may carry some weight, but we are not in that world. Given we are faced with a woeful acceptance in the market place, we simply don't have the time to do what you claim is being done. It has gone too far now.

Scoop is 100% correct, no-one expected a massive turnaround in performance, but even some semblance of commitment would be enough for most supporters. You do not get flogged by an average of 12 goals, week in week out, with a playing group that has bought into the coach's message, even if they cannot deliver it when required. Right now, it is scary how people are staying away in their thousands. Hawthorn President, Andrew Newbold, on radio this week, commented that he couldn't believe the lack of atmosphere at the 'G on Sunday.

Those that profess we are on the right track and say we should simply wait until the rebuild has at least a super structure in place, are not understanding the reality of the AFL football world as it stands in the modern era. Jackson has not come into the CEO role just because he's a nice guy and just wanted the help out. He is a head kicker and heads will surely be kicked and it won't be just Neeld's

Anybody who accepts what is currently occurring, does so at the Club's peril.

Once again you like Scoop put up your expectations where YOU THINK THE TEAM SHOULD BE - Don't preach to me because you believe that the club should be in a better position that it is

How many times do I need to repeat myself - I am not judging Neeld solely on match day performance as there are other factors for why where we are on the ladder, WHICH IS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD

Your inability to accept the development level and experience of the team as of today mean I cannot take your argument seriously.

Like Scoop - answer me this Iv'a - who out of the 10 teams we've played this year with the available players we've had should we realistically have beaten - I can only come up with 3 teams and obviously 2 we lost to.

You continue to mount your anger at Neeld when a lot of what has happened and where we are today is based on fixing decisions made from PRIOR ADMINISTRATIONS and have expected him to fix everything in 1 year - don't tell me my expectation are out of whack

I hope my highlighting your lack of acknowledgment of my argument makes you realise why I cannot take your criticism seriously

I accept changes had to be made and I believe Neeld, Craig and co have made the changes so this club has a chance of being a sustained successful club again one day soon

[Choko 493]

Choko and Unleash Hell:

The whole point of my comments is that my expectations were in fact very low this year.

My main expectation was that the team would perform no worse than at or around the level we did last year. I did expect improvement, as would be expected of a coach in his second year, but in no way shape or form did I expect a high level of improvement or that we would suddenly jump up the ladder. I knew we were a bottom end club and I expected us to finish there.

If we were to show just slight improvement on last year, I would be a happy supporter this year. That really was my expectation and I think you can agree that that is a pretty low expectation heading into a new season.

But the fact is we are significantly worse this year than last year. We have gone backwards under Neeld. We are defending far worse than last year and are easier to beat. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to expect slight improvement in your game style and the way you defend after a full season and another pre-season under a coach.

Last year we conceded 106.4 points on average a game. This year it has risen to 133.3. We are losing by a greater margin on average and our performances have been far less competitive than last year.

Unleash Hell – do you seriously expect me to buy your argument that because we were also 1-9 at this stage last year, we are at the same level? It's not just about wins and losses, it's about how you perform week to week. I've been to every game in Melbourne this year and I also went to the game at the Gabba and my impression from watching us is that we are playing worse footy this year than last year. And I'd be pretty confident that most supporters would agree that we've gone backwards in 2013.

I know where we're at and understand our list deficiencies. That's why my expectations were so low this year. But under Neeld in 2013 we have failed miserably to even meet these low expectations. We have managed to go completely backwards from an extremely low base.

It is frightening how accepting some of our supporters are of what has been dished up this year.

I know you didn't expect much, and I can't disagree that there is a strong argument we have gone backwards. However I think our list is still being unravelled, so I am not surprised. Particularly Moloney and Rivers would gave helped in the short term, but they are gone.

I recall a conversation a month or so ago between maybe Bomber Thompson, Eade and one other former senior coach, I think Roos. They said it takes 3 years to instill a new game plan. That was a general comment. We are starting well below!

I don't accept where we are at, to me it is just a question of who you want to blame most!

[Scoop Junior 3,472]

I will keep it simple as you seem to dodge the questions - who out of our 10 games we've played this year do you reasonably think we are a better side then?

It's not about wins and losses. It's about how you perform.

I wouldn't be too upset if we were 1-9 but had close losses against GC and Port and showed some semblance of competitiveness in other games. Other than Richmond and Brisbane (who both kicked poorly) we have been smashed in each other game.

It's not as simple as saying "well, we're the second worst team, so to be 1-9, beat GWS but lose to all teams above us is expected". You need to look at how we actually played in those games - a two-goal competitive loss to Port may be reasonable but a 13-goal uncompetitive blowout is not.

So to say it again as you don't seem to understand - I don't expect to win each week but I expect us to perform better than what we have been (i.e. I expect us to be losing on average by less than our current 12-goal average losing margin).

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

It's not about wins and losses. It's about how you perform.

Well you've changed your tact now because when we started this argument it was all about wins and losses

I wouldn't be too upset if we were 1-9 but had close losses against GC and Port and showed some semblance of competitiveness in other games. Other than Richmond and Brisbane (who both kicked poorly) we have been smashed in each other game.

It's not as simple as saying "well, we're the second worst team, so to be 1-9, beat GWS but lose to all teams above us is expected". You need to look at how we actually played in those games - a two-goal competitive loss to Port may be reasonable but a 13-goal uncompetitive blowout is not.

So to say it again as you don't seem to understand - I don't expect to win each week but I expect us to perform better than what we have been (i.e. I expect us to be losing on average by less than our current 12-goal average losing margin).

I do understand you point - you want onfield performance now - you keep implying it in different ways but the nuts and bolts of your argument is you want performance NOW

You and Iv'a keep giving me your opinion that our performance should have been better - I get what your saying because that is all you say with little supporting evidence of why we should be better then we are

As I continually try and point out to you there are numerous reasons why we aren't getting the improved performance right NOW and also to clarify it for you as you seem to be confused, I was not happy with the performance against GC or GWS or Essendon or Port

What I am trying to say is limit you expectations to the quality of the sides we fielded - if you look hard at the experience and leadership we are fielding comparted to the other sides you'll see we are a DEVELOPMENT team

My expectations are in check - ask yourself are yours?

Neeld has been brought in to do a job and I won't back down that the job is not done yet and if you listen to Dawes and others inside the club they say the JOB is getting DONE

Only the board can reasonably assess if it is really being met - I can only go from what I hear and see and the past few weeks against Freo and Hawks, although we haven't seen the MFC get wins WE HAVE SEEN IMPROVED EFFORT

I can't make this any simpler - WE are performing better gradually and it's going to take TIME as a TEAM to get better with the lack of LEADERSHIP and EXPERIENCE fielded each week. The only way for the team to get better is play more games and play more games together.

I also don't believe short term successes will come with continued fracturing of the club - which is what you are promoting

Edited June 5, 2013 by Unleash Hell

[pm24 451]

You do not get flogged by an average of 12 goals, week in week out, with a playing group that has bought into the coach's message, even if they cannot deliver it when required. Right now, it is scary how people are staying away in their thousands.

If this statement is true, does that mean that GWS (currently) and GC (for the two previous years) didn't buy into the coach's message given they would have lost by an average margin close to 10-12 goals?

[pm24 451]

A question to consider regarding the effort etc conversations:

If we had all of our leadership team and experienced players on the field for all the games played so far this season, do people think the results (effort, losing margin, etc) would have been better? I'm talking about having all of Grimes, Frawley, Garland, Trengove, Clark, Dawes, Byrnes, Sylvia, Macdonald, Jamar, Jones, Mackenzie in the one side at the same time.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I haven't read this site for a few days. Has anyone commented on or posted a link to an excellent article in The Age by Jesse Hogan ?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/taskmaster-made-bold-early-calls-20130603-2nm9t.html

[Yossarian 1,820]

I haven't read this site for a few days. Has anyone commented on or posted a link to an excellent article in The Age by Jesse Hogan ?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/taskmaster-made-bold-early-calls-20130603-2nm9t.html

No, but there's nothing new in there, unless you're fishing for people thinking it's written by our own Jesse Hogan.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

I haven't read this site for a few days. Has anyone commented on or posted a link to an excellent article in The Age by Jesse Hogan ?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/taskmaster-made-bold-early-calls-20130603-2nm9t.html

As i'm at work I've only skimmed it BH - as when you said Jesse Hogan it peaked my interest - but alas it is not our Jesse.

It's a good piece from what I've read and I haven't taken it all in yet and will later this evening - a good contribution BH

I still haven't changed my thinking that Neeld was brought in to make us the hardest team to play against (to borrow Neelds call) Tried to unite the players - failed. So in 2012 began the rebuild - got a little ahead of himself (like we all did) and is paying for it now

I still think we are a rebuilding side - I still think at this stage Neeld is doing what was requested of him (all be it making some errors in judgement which I have accepted in this tread)

As I said I will digest further tonight and make comment - but only the board can reliably tell us if Neeld has failed at rebuilding

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

No, but there's nothing new in there, unless you're fishing for people thinking it's written by our own Jesse Hogan.

I'll give BH the benefit of the doubt on that one and pretend he was adding to the conversation

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

So again, you are saying we are unique. If we were in a perfect footy world, your argument may carry some weight, but we are not in that world. Given we are faced with a woeful acceptance in the market place, we simply don't have the time to do what you claim is being done. It has gone too far now.

Scoop is 100% correct, no-one expected a massive turnaround in performance, but even some semblance of commitment would be enough for most supporters. You do not get flogged by an average of 12 goals, week in week out, with a playing group that has bought into the coach's message, even if they cannot deliver it when required. Right now, it is scary how people are staying away in their thousands. Hawthorn President, Andrew Newbold, on radio this week, commented that he couldn't believe the lack of atmosphere at the 'G on Sunday.

Those that profess we are on the right track and say we should simply wait until the rebuild has at least a super structure in place, are not understanding the reality of the AFL football world as it stands in the modern era. Jackson has not come into the CEO role just because he's a nice guy and just wanted the help out. He is a head kicker and heads will surely be kicked and it won't be just Neeld's

Anybody who accepts what is currently occurring, does so at the Club's peril.

Wow five likes IVA, that's a lot of posters who agree with you, Jackson is not a head kicker as you so eloquently put it, he is an experienced CEO, what will you do if he doensn't kick heads, or kick the heads you think should be kicked.

I read what Newbold wrote, he also said the majority of support was Hawthorn, no they weren't, they were the supporters who stayed away in droves you only need to ask OPEL, how many photos were taken with Jack Grimes and Mitch Clark before the game at their stand outside of Gate 3 to see how many Melbourne supporters turned up, I expect the same this week.

The membership is only about 3000 down, St Kilda's is 8000 down, you don't see them wanting to sack everybody

The effort and commitment has been building in the players, it would help if we could get through a couple of weeks without another senior player going down with injury or suspension

What is the reality of the AFL footy world, we are the second most inexperienced list in the AFL, GWS is the most, hence bottom and second bottom, yes I would like a couple of more wins but we are not getting them but as long as each week the effort continues to rise (personally don't think we will see a Gold Coast effort again) I will happily wait till the end of the season to see how it has panned out.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

If this statement is true, does that mean that GWS (currently) and GC (for the two previous years) didn't buy into the coach's message given they would have lost by an average margin close to 10-12 goals?

Let's compare like with like shall we. They are expansion teams, the AFL's baby, totally supported by the AFL. We have been around just a little bit longer than that and that is what makes our position so serious.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Once again you like Scoop put up your expectations where YOU THINK THE TEAM SHOULD BE - Don't preach to me because you believe that the club should be in a better position that it is

How many times do I need to repeat myself - I am not judging Neeld solely on match day performance as there are other factors for why where we are on the ladder, WHICH IS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD

Your inability to accept the development level and experience of the team as of today mean I cannot take your argument seriously.

Like Scoop - answer me this Iv'a - who out of the 10 teams we've played this year with the available players we've had should we realistically have beaten - I can only come up with 3 teams and obviously 2 we lost to.

You continue to mount your anger at Neeld when a lot of what has happened and where we are today is based on fixing decisions made from PRIOR ADMINISTRATIONS and have expected him to fix everything in 1 year - don't tell me my expectation are out of whack

I hope my highlighting your lack of acknowledgment of my argument makes you realise why I cannot take your criticism seriously

I accept changes had to be made and I believe Neeld, Craig and co have made the changes so this club has a chance of being a sustained successful club again one day soon

You miss the point clearly. This is not about wins and losses, it is about how you lose and the extent and consistency in the way you lose. If you can accept that, then good luck to you, but I'll tell you for free, the AFL aint gonna put up with it much longer and neither should they.

[Weedster 174]

I actually thought it was pretty good - nailed a lot of the issues which have arisen in recent times

I haven't read this site for a few days. Has anyone commented on or posted a link to an excellent article in The Age by Jesse Hogan ?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/taskmaster-made-bold-early-calls-20130603-2nm9t.html

[jazza 1,323]

Let's compare like with like shall we. They are expansion teams, the AFL's baby, totally supported by the AFL. We have been around just a little bit longer than that and that is what makes our position so serious.

kkkrap we are in a bad position because of choices made

dont compare us to anybody else just report facts

fact were rebuilding

fact, it will take a little time

fact like all clubs people will come and go

fact some players on all lists are not up to it

fact stop making up figures and comparisons

fact stick with the club or rack OFF

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

You miss the point clearly. This is not about wins and losses, it is about how you lose and the extent and consistency in the way you lose. If you can accept that, then good luck to you, but I'll tell you for free, the AFL aint gonna put up with it much longer and neither should they.

Oh I have go it now, you have a Vlad phone sitting next to your computer, what are they going to do?

[Scoop Junior 3,472]

Well you've changed your tact now because when we started this argument it was all about wins and losses

You are completely off the mark here. My position has always been based on Neeld's performance as a coach (which admittedly includes his team's performance, in addition to other factors).

I've never said it is all about wins and losses and I'd appreciate you not misrepresenting my position.

I can no longer bang my head against a brick wall so am not going to argue any further. It's a waste of my time.

I have set out my thoughts and my position. Feel free to go back and read them and you will understand how your comment above is so far off the mark.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Scoop Junior

[robbiefrom13 887]

dont compare us to anybody else just report facts

fact stick with the club or rack OFF

um...

would it be a fact that the rest of the world is out there, jazza?

or, which part of "fact" do you understand?

[Gorgoroth 12,950]

I read what Newbold wrote, he also said the majority of support was Hawthorn, no they weren't, they were the supporters who stayed away in droves

Ha ha ha your joking right????

We would have had 6000 supporters there max, 80% of the members area in the southern stand was empty and the northern stand was sparse as well.

Yes, only 22000 hawks supporters came to a away game, only 24000 of our members did not show up to a game that essentially is free.

We will be out numbered 10-1 on Monday, lucky to get 10,000 Melbourne supporters this Monday.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

kkkrap we are in a bad position because of choices made

dont compare us to anybody else just report facts

fact were rebuilding

fact, it will take a little time

fact like all clubs people will come and go

fact some players on all lists are not up to it

fact stop making up figures and comparisons

fact stick with the club or rack OFF

Settle down Jazza. I was not making the comparison, just responding to someone who was making an erroneous comparison.

[mjt 640]

I just watched the Hassa Mann interview on Fox Sports, and they had a clip of the 3rd quarter huddle and Neeld walked behind on Watts and said something and when he went to the front to address the players Watts glared at with utter contempt, you could see hate in his eyes, I have never seen a player glare at coach like that in all my time watching footy, I would say he lost the

s the playing group half way through last season, they need to make a move before the end of the season.

Edited June 5, 2013 by mjt

[Soidee 1,496]

I just watched the Hassa Mann interview on Fox Sports, and they had a clip of the 3rd quarter huddle and Neeld walked behind on Watts and said something and when he went to the front to address the players Watts glared at with utter contempt, you could see hate in his eyes, I have never seen a player glare at coach like that in all my time watching footy, I would say he lost the

s the playing group half way through last season, they need to make a move before the end of the season.

Can you post that?

[mjt 640]

Can you post that?

why not, I'm just posting what I saw on TV.