You sure could have fooled me!

I think we have good bookends - personally I was, and continue to be, a big supporter of the decision to recruit Dawes.

As everyone knows, it's our midfield that sucks. And AFL seems to be all about the midfield these days.

That said, I think it's probably the easiest area on the ground to fix, and to fix quite quickly. It seems to be easier to lure an A grade mid, than to lure an A grade forward or defender. There are just plenty more mids out there, and there are always a few 'on the move', unlike the really good KPPs.

Our list still has a lot of upside IMO.

I think we have good bookends - personally I was, and continue to be, a big supporter of the decision to recruit Dawes.

As everyone knows, it's our midfield that sucks. And AFL seems to be all about the midfield these days.

That said, I think it's probably the easiest area on the ground to fix, and to fix quite quickly. It seems to be easier to lure an A grade mid, than to lure an A grade forward or defender. There are just plenty more mids out there, and there are always a few 'on the move', unlike the really good KPPs.

Our list still has a lot of upside IMO.

Ron, as with the assessment of our coach I will draw judgement on what he produces. And it needs to be more than mid week press articles.

If its so easy to fix the midfield then why haven't we done it. It's been a recognised weakness for at least 10 years when chased Brock and Col. Despite earnest efforts we have failed to attract Judd, Ball and others. It seems to be the opposite of a quick fix. And IMHO opinion we are three years away from developing a mature and consistently competitive midfield. I would hope that Viney, Toumpas and M Jones mature in that time. I have them pencilled for three of the 8 midfield positions you need in you rotations. I reckon we need to develop/ find 2 or 3 more.

So the players admit there was not enough effort.

The question begs , why when we are at such a desperate stage in our history , is there not enough effort?

So the players admit there was not enough effort.

The question begs , why when we are at such a desperate stage in our history , is there not enough effort?

Good question DeeZee

I don't blame everything on the players as their jobs would be hard without all the proper resources (proper mids for starters)

But 2 things I find very damning on the playing group - who can't blame anyone else but themselves

Why is a 1st year player Matt Jones the most consisten prefomer on that team

And if leaders at the club say the effort is not there - why, speak up or [censored] orf

I'd prefer to hear this from Dawes than from Neeld or Craig or the guys that usually get rolled out to make these types of statements.

Hats off to him

Ron, as with the assessment of our coach I will draw judgement on what he produces. And it needs to be more than mid week press articles.

If its so easy to fix the midfield then why haven't we done it. It's been a recognised weakness for at least 10 years when chased Brock and Col. Despite earnest efforts we have failed to attract Judd, Ball and others. It seems to be the opposite of a quick fix. And IMHO opinion we are three years away from developing a mature and consistently competitive midfield. I would hope that Viney, Toumpas and M Jones mature in that time. I have them pencilled for three of the 8 midfield positions you need in you rotations. I reckon we need to develop/ find 2 or 3 more.

Viney, Toumpas, N. Jones, Evans, Trengove, Blease & Taggert are the building blocks of our midfield. Sadly only 2 have played more then 50 games which is why we're so poor.

Sadly Dawes is correct, there's no silver bullet, and as you said we need at least another 2-3 in there. Whether that's people like Aish or Dunstan through the draft or if we do similar to this year and look for some top up players for the time being in Adam Selwood or a Farren Ray, I don't know, but as you pointed out I can't see any top midfielders from other clubs putting their hands up to come across, just like Judd and Ball wouldn't.

Viney, Toumpas, N. Jones, Evans, Trengove, Blease & Taggert are the building blocks of our midfield. Sadly only 2 have played more then 50 games which is why we're so poor.

Sadly Dawes is correct, there's no silver bullet, and as you said we need at least another 2-3 in there. Whether that's people like Aish or Dunstan through the draft or if we do similar to this year and look for some top up players for the time being in Adam Selwood or a Farren Ray, I don't know, but as you pointed out I can't see any top midfielders from other clubs putting their hands up to come across, just like Judd and Ball wouldn't.

Just as well really because it's generally only effective against Werewolves, Witches and Vampires and anyway has a lower muzzle velocity and accuracy compared with a standard lead projectile. I think that Chris probably meant "Magic Wand". Maybe he's a big Lone Ranger fan.

I found the article depressing for the following reasons:

1. On first read I can't remember the word "win" being used.

2. Our benchmark seem to be "effort", so if we show "effort" it doesn't matter about the rest.

3. We've had to spend this week learning or re-educating the players about what "effort" is and this has has a significant impact on our "other" learning.

My reading is the FD have trained these guys to lose. Neeld prepared everyone for a loss last week when he said GCS were more experienced than us. He's been telling the world, and I imagine the players, we can't expect to win against more experienced teams. What better way to build a culture of failure. And the players are playing like it.

And are we being told we are so badly prepared that over 2 preseasons we haven't learned what "effort" is and that losing a week of focus towards relearning is going to be a big setback?

The mind boggles. I really like Chris Dawes, he is intelligent and thoughtful and I'm not sorry we've got him. But that doesn't mean I like the message he's presenting. The focus of the players seems to be to back Neeld at every opportunity and slag themselves/each other. I don't like that and it's going to look really silly if and when Neeld goes.

Ron, as with the assessment of our coach I will draw judgement on what he produces. And it needs to be more than mid week press articles.

If its so easy to fix the midfield then why haven't we done it. It's been a recognised weakness for at least 10 years when chased Brock and Col. Despite earnest efforts we have failed to attract Judd, Ball and others. It seems to be the opposite of a quick fix. And IMHO opinion we are three years away from developing a mature and consistently competitive midfield. I would hope that Viney, Toumpas and M Jones mature in that time. I have them pencilled for three of the 8 midfield positions you need in you rotations. I reckon we need to develop/ find 2 or 3 more.

exactly right. so the coach knows and the whole football world knows.

thats why were trying to develop harder bodied players in ressies .

sacking the coach to be replaced by another developer is completely insane

hes trying to shore up positions and let the mid alone to find out who can remain for next year

ive been slightly happy with the building blocks put in place this year and if the board see it thruogh to 2014 i think change will be quicker than people imagine.

Viney, Toumpas, N. Jones, Evans, Trengove, Blease & Taggert are the building blocks of our midfield. Sadly only 2 have played more then 50 games which is why we're so poor.

Sadly Dawes is correct, there's no silver bullet, and as you said we need at least another 2-3 in there. Whether that's people like Aish or Dunstan through the draft or if we do similar to this year and look for some top up players for the time being in Adam Selwood or a Farren Ray, I don't know, but as you pointed out I can't see any top midfielders from other clubs putting their hands up to come across, just like Judd and Ball wouldn't.

I am not sure that Evans, Taggert and Blease are building blocks of our midfield. Blease hasn't got a tank yet to run a bath let alone run out a game.

I disagree with the idea that effort is not coach driven.

Have a look at the way Fremantle attack and harass the opposition under Ross Lyon and compare that to how they were under Mark Harvey. Most of them are the same group of players.

A great coach gets his team believing in him and in his game plan. Fremantle players have bought in to the Lyon style and game because they know it works. Melbourne on the other hand play like they don't believe in the coach's game style. They might say that they do in public but they don't play as though they believe. This naturally affects a player's effort levels.

To try to masquerade our problems by highlighting effort as the only or main issue is just failing to recognise the bigger issues. We were not thrashed by Gold Coast in the first quarter purely because of a lack of effort. We were thrashed because our blokes had no idea what to do (either offensively or defensively) out on the ground, because they have no confidence or belief in the message and because of skill errors and poor decision making.

I don't blame Neeld for the basis skill errors but I do blame him for the confusion of the players and their lack of confidence and belief.

To say it's just effort and that effort is solely a player driven thing is completely wrong in my opinion and is just more spin. It's like the comment that 'we showed a lot of improvement in the last three weeks' (prior to the Gold Coast game). Being three goals down at ¾ time to GWS at the MCG and getting walloped in general play by Brisbane is not what I would term improvement.

I will start out by saying that I have played footy at VFA level......I did not have the greatest skills....I am 183cm and was fairly light and played back pocket/back flank...

I got a game by determination and getting in for the ball.....We had all sorts of game plans(even then) but my understanding of these plans was fairly limited.....ie , where to kick ,where to run,.....but I just went in and got the ball or shepparded or chased or tackled......This does not require great skill or understanding....

I used to get into trouble for not following said games plans but still got a game because I did the above mentioned things.

I am not trying to pump up my own tyres.....just stressing that with the right attitude you can become a valued member of the team...and if all your mates do the same then your team can win games.....

I disagree with the idea that effort is not coach driven.

So you're saying these blokes just happened to stumble upon a career of playing AFL-level football?

What a load of crap.

Once again, this playing group SHOULD NOT have to have emphasised to it how important effort is at any level of football, yet they seem too dumb to realise that. How this is Neeld's fault is beyond me. Seeing this, it's no surprise they can't grasp Neeld's gameplan. They can't even comprehend the basics of Australian Rules football.

It's the players.

So you're saying these blokes just happened to stumble upon a career of playing AFL-level football?

What a load of crap.

Once again, this playing group SHOULD NOT have to have emphasised to it how important effort is at any level of football, yet they seem too dumb to realise that. How this is Neeld's fault is beyond me. Seeing this, it's no surprise they can't grasp Neeld's gameplan. They can't even comprehend the basics of Australian Rules football.

It's the players.

see post 35

far to much common sense doc

I think we have - for several years - done most of our running just after the unmarked opponent gets the ball. We run after them.

Oh for some positive moves! Robbie Flower laments the stop-start-go-backwards lack of flow.

How must the stars of junior football who wind up at Melbourne long for the corridor, and remember tearing it up! Instead, they have been taught the counter-intuitive drivel of guarding nothing until the opposition are on their way to goal - and then we run...

Every cheap possession we give the unhurried opposition causes us to have another desperate chase. That's the bulk of our running. Exhausting and dispiriting, but implementing the Plan.

We play on from marks more than any other side...... we hit the target with a effective dispoal least or 2nd last of all clubs in the AFL.... Skills are lacking, are they lacking because they are trying to get them fit enough, possible. The chicken or the egg? Skills need to improve for the game plan to work, oh and also putting some f ing pressure on!

Some fans may have given up hope, but players haven't

Chris Dawes article on the Age website.

Wow I didn't see that yesterday...

He Is spot On...

there is way too much negative talk, ever since the cleanup on our list,, imo due to the amount of money put in to clear the debt, but also bleating about wasted picks & favourite soft players.

we all know the culture has been OFF for a long time, & its as evident as a male dog...

but when actions are initiated to Fix this, the bleating is like someone has had a tooth pulled without anesthetic.

... lets get on with it, & let the man do his much needed job.

.

His right - there was no effort.

Get rid of the blazers, get rid of the "first and forever" slogan. I can't help but feel that these inhibit this lazyness, that the players take where they are for granted. That they can go out there, produce such an effortless performance, and think that there are no repercussions.

We might be first, but if they keep up this effortless perfomance we wont be forever.

.

It's fluff because all we ever hear are the apologies and the remorse... "Ohhhh we didn't see it coming" "Ohhhhh we need to try harder" wah wah wah....

Get some balls. Tell us something to get us up and about, not just the same old tearful sob stories. Sick of us being such an apologetic club.

Stop apologizing for what you should have done, and do what you're supposed to do!

^^^ This.

"That sort of effort shouldn't need to be coached, and the fact that this week it does need to be coached is an indictment of the playing group."

It shouldn't but it needs to be there as a bare minimum pass mark and part of any coach's 101 manual player non-negotiables. It sounds from Dawes's comment like it wasn't. Another Neeld fail.

"If things are going to improve and we're going to achieve some sustained success, it will be gradual. There will be no silver bullets."

The word IF worries me here. If the players truly believed in where Neeld was directing them to me he would be starting with the word WHEN not IF. I have yet to see anything "gradual" other than most players either stagnating or regressing. I don't think any genuine Demon fan is expecting a magic silver bullet in the first 3 years. But we certainly weren't expecting a team to come out in its 2nd season under Neeld bereft of skills, belief, fight and generally uncompetitive and unwatchable at AFL level, expecially against start up clubs and clubs that are heading south. Massive fail.

"The only silver bullet will be effort."

Hold on, I thought you just said there would be "no silver bullet"? If trying your guts out every week and giving your all for the club that's paying you a hefty fee is considered a silver bullet in your mind (and i wonder how many others in the FD/list) then it's no wonder we are where we are. Again, this is something most professional footballers and clubs consider a non-negotiable and part of a the natural order at this level. Sure, even the pros have off weeks and periods where their form aludes them, but very few will ever be accused of not giving their all in terms of effort. It's just a given that "effort" is part of a competitive animal's make up. That's why they play and why even the most docile of characters off the field (eg Bruce Doull, Matthew Scarlett) bring it once they cross the white line. This is not something that had to be coached into them at senior level. It was inherent and expected when they walked through the club doors. More effort might be a coach request at various times during a match or season. But I doubt if a senior Coach would ever have to explain and coach a whole week of "effort". As a coach you might be able to motivate and inspire greater effort from a base effort. But that base effort should arrive from the inherent competitive spirit within each individual. The fact that the group (almost as a whole) don't show this most weeks and haven't so far under Neeld is again, IMO, a massive fail on the part of Neeld and his team.

"There is a magic bullet. It is SELF BELIEF. It is the coaches job to instil it in every player".

So again, there is another magic bullet. And yes it certainly is the mark of a good quality coach and person to find & bring the best out of every player. I've seen very little or this during Neeld's stint so far and certainly neither belief or effort at the beginning of any match this year other than against the Lions in the first quarter where I believe we drew the quarter and that was against a depleted out of form outfit.

Sorry Chris, nice try but I believe the only magic bullet from here will be when/if we can find an experienced coach that brings and is able to bring out the skills and belief in the playing group to a base minimum level of competitivess and accepts nothing less from a player than an AFL level competitive effort at the very least. And who also expects and prepares his team to win every week and prepares them accordingly, both physically, mentally and with an AFL skill level (eg, quick movement and transition of the ball with minimal turnovers) that allows/assists them to do so.

I disagree with the idea that effort is not coach driven.

Have a look at the way Fremantle attack and harass the opposition under Ross Lyon and compare that to how they were under Mark Harvey. Most of them are the same group of players.

A great coach gets his team believing in him and in his game plan. Fremantle players have bought in to the Lyon style and game because they know it works. Melbourne on the other hand play like they don't believe in the coach's game style. They might say that they do in public but they don't play as though they believe. This naturally affects a player's effort levels.

To try to masquerade our problems by highlighting effort as the only or main issue is just failing to recognise the bigger issues. We were not thrashed by Gold Coast in the first quarter purely because of a lack of effort. We were thrashed because our blokes had no idea what to do (either offensively or defensively) out on the ground, because they have no confidence or belief in the message and because of skill errors and poor decision making.

I don't blame Neeld for the basis skill errors but I do blame him for the confusion of the players and their lack of confidence and belief.

To say it's just effort and that effort is solely a player driven thing is completely wrong in my opinion and is just more spin. It's like the comment that 'we showed a lot of improvement in the last three weeks' (prior to the Gold Coast game). Being three goals down at ¾ time to GWS at the MCG and getting walloped in general play by Brisbane is not what I would term improvement.

I agree with a lot of what you have said Scoop but I don't nessecarily agree with how you got to those conclusions

The part I highlighted I wanted to discuss, as it is causing a lot of anger with us supporters - and so it should. I also want to say I am not a Neeld supporter as such, I don't care who coaches us as long as they fix this rabble of a club....

Anyway back to my point - How much can be blamed to Neeld and how much the players??? I say it's 50/50 blame and here is why.

It's a cop out to say a team dosen't know what to do on field, I highly doubt the plans at the moment are overly complicated. Win the ball and spread would be the main messages I'd imagine - it's also cop out blaming the coach because a player can't beat their man 1 v 1, can't lay a tackle or won't run in support, won't lower their eyes and bomb the ball. We all saw so many [censored] poor efforts on Sunday from a lot of players. How many times did players ignore open players and bomb - i'd be truely staggered if that was an instruction

I am not discounting the coaching instructions and disconnect of the playing group but all the same these blokes are meant to be professional footballers. Why has a 7 gamer in Matt Jones shown more consistent form and effort then say a Howe or Dunn

I think the whole club stinks of gorups - Players who want to play, players who couldn't give a stuff and players who have disconnected with the coaching staff....

I don't care if Neeld stays or goes, but it is obvious Neeld coaching style is not the only problem at this club

It's fluff because all we ever hear are the apologies and the remorse... "Ohhhh we didn't see it coming" "Ohhhhh we need to try harder" wah wah wah....

Get some balls. Tell us something to get us up and about, not just the same old tearful sob stories. Sick of us being such an apologetic club.

Stop apologizing for what you should have done, and do what you're supposed to do!

I actually agree 100% with you Stuie

Am sick of all the talk from players and coaches - f'n start delivering

Syliva for years has said to the supporters he wan't to repay the faith - according to Rino and others is Sylvia lying to us?

"That sort of effort shouldn't need to be coached, and the fact that this week it does need to be coached is an indictment of the playing group."

It shouldn't but it needs to be there as a bare minimum pass mark and part of any coach's 101 manual player non-negotiables. It sounds from Dawes's comment like it wasn't. Another BAILEY fail.

FTFY

The mind boggles. I really like Chris Dawes, he is intelligent and thoughtful and I'm not sorry we've got him. But that doesn't mean I like the message he's presenting. The focus of the players seems to be to back Neeld at every opportunity and slag themselves/each other. I don't like that and it's going to look really silly if and when Neeld goes.

Unfortunately when you hit rock bottom you can't expect to crawl out of it quickly. It has to start somewhere and effort is a start, I agree I want a winning culture not an "effort" culture but I will always be content (not happy) with whatever the result a long as I know that the players have left it all out on the park and they put in the effort expected of them a professionals.

I think this is the point that Dawes is getting at.

It was an interesting article to read, especially coming from a player who's just arrived at the club. Talk is cheap though, they need to put it into action or the players will watch another coach be kicked out the door.

To Dawes's credit, he's done a sterling job at attempting to defend the indefensible.

But I'm sorry Chris, the very idea of professional athletes being taught how to try at the expense of learning a gameplan, in Round 8 of a coach's second season, is one that is best not said aloud.

I disagree with the idea that effort is not coach driven.

Have a look at the way Fremantle attack and harass the opposition under Ross Lyon and compare that to how they were under Mark Harvey. Most of them are the same group of players.

A great coach gets his team believing in him and in his game plan. Fremantle players have bought in to the Lyon style and game because they know it works. Melbourne on the other hand play like they don't believe in the coach's game style. They might say that they do in public but they don't play as though they believe. This naturally affects a player's effort levels.

To try to masquerade our problems by highlighting effort as the only or main issue is just failing to recognise the bigger issues. We were not thrashed by Gold Coast in the first quarter purely because of a lack of effort. We were thrashed because our blokes had no idea what to do (either offensively or defensively) out on the ground, because they have no confidence or belief in the message and because of skill errors and poor decision making.

I don't blame Neeld for the basis skill errors but I do blame him for the confusion of the players and their lack of confidence and belief.

To say it's just effort and that effort is solely a player driven thing is completely wrong in my opinion and is just more spin. It's like the comment that 'we showed a lot of improvement in the last three weeks' (prior to the Gold Coast game). Being three goals down at ¾ time to GWS at the MCG and getting walloped in general play by Brisbane is not what I would term improvement.

This is the point i always come back to, people need to really ask themselves, would we really be this bad if we had Ross Lyon as a coach?