Must get a legit crumbing forward this free agency period

[olisik 4,060]

Ask for Nahas as steak knives with Martin

[What 18,810]

like who?

Stephen Mine went alright

[rjay 25,094]

Did I ever claim that we don't need mids? It's pretty much a self-evident truth that we need to get the best quality mids we can this year, but that isn't what this thread is about. I simply stated that I disagree with people claiming that the specialist small forward has no place in today's game. A good small forward would improve our forward line without a doubt, and there are a few out there who we could certainly use. Some of them could even work up to being handy midfield pinch-hitters as well.

As I simply stated they are a waste of space. Over the last 10 years has a specialist small forward won or come close to winning the Norm Smith, has one of them had a match winning performance in GF's? The last one I remember was Bartlett and even then we are talking about one of the best rovers in the game.

Stephen Mine went alright

No he didn't, he always struggled in the big games. The problem with a specialist small forward is it's to easy to squeeze them out of the game, if they have the ability to work as a mid or further up the ground it's much harder to dull their effectiveness. The Carlton trio are a prime example of this.

Milne has always struggled in the big games and it's why Grant Thomas, his former coach never rated him. I think it's more the nature of the position than Milne himself.

[MadAsHell 4,215]

What are people's thoughts on Shane Savage?

He's a forward/midfielder, 185cm and very quick and could play the role. Kicked 5 goals in the VFL Prelim Final the other day and has struggled to get a regular game at Hawthorn due to the likes of Rioli, Breust, Hill etc.

Might be able to tempt him with a regular game and money and he's shown an ability to be able to rotate through the midfield.

[rjay 25,094]

What are people's thoughts on Shane Savage?

He's a forward/midfielder, 185cm and very quick and could play the role. Kicked 5 goals in the VFL Prelim Final the other day and has struggled to get a regular game at Hawthorn due to the likes of Rioli, Breust, Hill etc.

Might be able to tempt him with a regular game and money and he's shown an ability to be able to rotate through the midfield.

He's definitely one to look at. A bit like Kennedy and McGlinn in that he can't get a regular game, these are the type of players we would be identifying and assessing what their upside is and their likelihood to move.

[tonatopia 278]

Garlett. Any garlett will do.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,093]

As I simply stated they are a waste of space. Over the last 10 years has a specialist small forward won or come close to winning the Norm Smith, has one of them had a match winning performance in GF's? The last one I remember was Bartlett and even then we are talking about one of the best rovers in the game.

No he didn't, he always struggled in the big games. The problem with a specialist small forward is it's to easy to squeeze them out of the game, if they have the ability to work as a mid or further up the ground it's much harder to dull their effectiveness. The Carlton trio are a prime example of this.

Milne has always struggled in the big games and it's why Grant Thomas, his former coach never rated him. I think it's more the nature of the position than Milne himself.

2012 - Milne was 8th in the coleman. Betts was 10th.

2011 - Milne was 5th. Betts was 9th. Garlett 11th

2010 - LeCras 4th, Milne 7th (Brad Green 8th)

2009 - LeCras 5th

2008 - Milne 9th, Motlop 10th

2007 - Brad Johnson 7th, Ebert 10th

2006 - Johnson 3rd, Williams 9th, Farmer 12th (55 goals)

2005 - Williams 6th, Milne 7th

2004 - Matera 9th

2003 - Matera 6th, N. Brown 8th

2002 - N Brown 3rd, Milne 8th.

Far enough back you think?

I'm struggling to find Norm Smith vote counts going back for a decade. Perhaps you can provide them for us?

[dee-luded 2,959]

Stephen Mine went alright

yes, but the saints failed... & this is the issue.

getting a one dimension (S/F) may help us short term, but so would a good small mid with some speed, agility & footy smartz. & the mid would most likely develop into a more useful Cog.

we tried for the Maric's, Bennells, etc, with great failure...

the Saints used Lyons paddock for Milne & he put on a magic show with lots of goals but still No Cigars.... they were way too One Dimension. Lyon looks to have adjusted his style over West on the bigger grounds.

[dee-luded 2,959]

What are people's thoughts on Shane Savage?

He's a forward/midfielder, 185cm and very quick and could play the role. Kicked 5 goals in the VFL Prelim Final the other day and has struggled to get a regular game at Hawthorn due to the likes of Rioli, Breust, Hill etc.

Might be able to tempt him with a regular game and money and he's shown an ability to be able to rotate through the midfield.

dangerous player, icing on the already baked cake.

I'd rather Cyril for us as he is more versatile imo.

.... the only outside type players we can afford whilst changing our culture, are ones who win their own Footy, & defend as well the other way.

[rjay 25,094]

2012 - Milne was 8th in the coleman. Betts was 10th.

2011 - Milne was 5th. Betts was 9th. Garlett 11th

2010 - LeCras 4th, Milne 7th (Brad Green 8th)

2009 - LeCras 5th

2008 - Milne 9th, Motlop 10th

2007 - Brad Johnson 7th, Ebert 10th

2006 - Johnson 3rd, Williams 9th, Farmer 12th (55 goals)

2005 - Williams 6th, Milne 7th

2004 - Matera 9th

2003 - Matera 6th, N. Brown 8th

2002 - N Brown 3rd, Milne 8th.

Far enough back you think?

I'm struggling to find Norm Smith vote counts going back for a decade. Perhaps you can provide them for us?

...and you just prove my point. They might do well during the year but in big games consistently let you down. It's the nature of the position, it's why they need more than one string to the bow.

Forget about the count, they obviously didn't make an impression on you because non of them made an impression on the game.

By the way, LeCras is much more than a specialist forward and Johnson whilst small was their key forward target.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,093]

...and you just prove my point. They might do well during the year but in big games consistently let you down. It's the nature of the position, it's why they need more than one string to the bow.

Forget about the count, they obviously didn't make an impression on you because non of them made an impression on the game.

By the way, LeCras is much more than a specialist forward and Johnson whilst small was their key forward target.

How does it prove your point? That I am unable to find Norm Smith counts for most of those years? The absence of evidence for one side does not prove the case for the other. You have consistently failed to provide any actual evidence to back up you opinion and simply resorted to stating it over and over again as fact. At least try to make an effort here. Give me figures. Give me something other than the statement that "in big games consistently let you down." You need to be able to back it up.

I'll also point out that but for a nasty off-break, Milne would have kicked the winning goal against the pies with seconds left on the clock in the drawn GF. As it was he was equal highest goal-scorer on the ground in both that game and the replay.

I will also address the following:

By the way, LeCras is much more than a specialist forward and Johnson whilst small was their key forward target.

Firstly, LeCras is indeed a specialist forward. The fact that many of his goals come from marks is irrelevant. Also irrelevant is the fact that Brad Johnson was the primary scoring avenue for the dogs. The fact that they were able to make finals repeatedly with a small forward being the focus of their attack is if anything justification for my stance. He was clearly able to impact contests both during the home and away season and in finals.

Returning to my earlier posts, the figures I am presenting show that a small forward who is able to kick 50 or so goals in a season is not at all unusual or unattainable. I have listed a number of examples over the last decade. They need not be one-dimensional players as some seem to be suggesting. To claim that the only possible way to fill this role is to have genuine midfielders who can rotate through the forward line is at best a simplistic view. We are going to see again this year that the successful teams provide a mix of doctrines. Fremantle is very likely to play in the GF given their home prelim and they are playing a specialist small forward/tagger who's job is to negate attacking defenders and has still managed to kick 33 goals. Tell me he shouldn't be in their side. How about Luke Breust with 38 goals this year? What is he if not a specialist forward? Meanwhile Geelong and Sydney are more prone to the "midfielder first" mentality and rotate many players through as they need.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

Mids. We're not creating opportunities for small forwards so we don't really know whether we already have one capable or not.

[deeko 952]

Mids. We're not creating opportunities for small forwards so we don't really know whether we already have one capable or not.

This

Also, small forwards are really the icing on the cake players and we have no cake.

As for what we have:

- We still have Byrnes. Not great I know but happy for him to continue until someone better forces him out.

- Kent will continue improving next year with more delivery and fitness.

- Sylvia (if he stays and we recruit more mids) can go back to his role as the small marking forward like LeCras where he plays his best footy.

They aren't great but they will do for now.

If we are so big on this idea then please rule out the one dimensionals as someone previously said. Go the Stokes, Wingards, Zaharakis' type players. They can play both roles and well.

[rjay 25,094]

How does it prove your point? That I am unable to find Norm Smith counts for most of those years? The absence of evidence for one side does not prove the case for the other. You have consistently failed to provide any actual evidence to back up you opinion and simply resorted to stating it over and over again as fact. At least try to make an effort here. Give me figures. Give me something other than the statement that "in big games consistently let you down." You need to be able to back it up.

I'll also point out that but for a nasty off-break, Milne would have kicked the winning goal against the pies with seconds left on the clock in the drawn GF. As it was he was equal highest goal-scorer on the ground in both that game and the replay.

I will also address the following:

Firstly, LeCras is indeed a specialist forward. The fact that many of his goals come from marks is irrelevant. Also irrelevant is the fact that Brad Johnson was the primary scoring avenue for the dogs. The fact that they were able to make finals repeatedly with a small forward being the focus of their attack is if anything justification for my stance. He was clearly able to impact contests both during the home and away season and in finals.

Returning to my earlier posts, the figures I am presenting show that a small forward who is able to kick 50 or so goals in a season is not at all unusual or unattainable. I have listed a number of examples over the last decade. They need not be one-dimensional players as some seem to be suggesting. To claim that the only possible way to fill this role is to have genuine midfielders who can rotate through the forward line is at best a simplistic view. We are going to see again this year that the successful teams provide a mix of doctrines. Fremantle is very likely to play in the GF given their home prelim and they are playing a specialist small forward/tagger who's job is to negate attacking defenders and has still managed to kick 33 goals. Tell me he shouldn't be in their side. How about Luke Breust with 38 goals this year? What is he if not a specialist forward? Meanwhile Geelong and Sydney are more prone to the "midfielder first" mentality and rotate many players through as they need.

Looks like Sydney, Roos the coach and the Cats are simplistic then.

LeCras might be a specialist forward (who can also rotate effectively through the midfield) but he is not a specialist small forward. I've asked you to tell me which specialist small crumbing forward has had a major impact in GF's over the last 10 years and you can't, you don't need votes for this.

Johnson is not justification at all, he wasn't a small crumbing forward he was there go to FF.

Players like Ballintine work up the ground and are very effective not just around goals, him I rate but even he was quiet against Geelong in their last win. Milne, Betts, Garlett, Yarran...don't give much at all apart from goals during the season, they are too easy to put out of the big games. The small crumbing forward is way over rated, give me Stokes, Motlop, Christiansen type who can get plenty of ball up the ground and crumb goals when it's their turn. The specialist is obsolete, that's my point. If you don't agree then you are not watching the same game I am.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Firstly, LeCras is indeed a specialist forward. The fact that many of his goals come from marks is irrelevant. Also irrelevant is the fact that Brad Johnson was the primary scoring avenue for the dogs. The fact that they were able to make finals repeatedly with a small forward being the focus of their attack is if anything justification for my stance. He was clearly able to impact contests both during the home and away season and in finals.

Returning to my earlier posts, the figures I am presenting show that a small forward who is able to kick 50 or so goals in a season is not at all unusual or unattainable. I have listed a number of examples over the last decade. They need not be one-dimensional players as some seem to be suggesting. To claim that the only possible way to fill this role is to have genuine midfielders who can rotate through the forward line is at best a simplistic view. We are going to see again this year that the successful teams provide a mix of doctrines. Fremantle is very likely to play in the GF given their home prelim and they are playing a specialist small forward/tagger who's job is to negate attacking defenders and has still managed to kick 33 goals. Tell me he shouldn't be in their side. How about Luke Breust with 38 goals this year? What is he if not a specialist forward? Meanwhile Geelong and Sydney are more prone to the "midfielder first" mentality and rotate many players through as they need.

http://www.eaglesflyinghigh.com/news/news.php?id=270

...... whatever he is talented.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,093]

I've asked you to tell me which specialist small crumbing forward has had a major impact in GF's over the last 10 years

And I singled out Milne who was the best goalscoring option for the saints in the drawn GF and it's replay and but for an errant bounce would have kicked the winning goal in the first match.

I can add Mark Williams to this who was top goal scorer in Hawthorns GF win. Carlton's 2011 win over Essendon in the qualifying final where Betts kicked 4 and Garlett three, we'd have to count that. We could also go to the Port Adelaide premiership where 11 of their 17 goals came from their small forwards.

Once again, you have simply stated your opinion as a fact and assumed that people will agree with you without thought or scrutiny. Your response to my requests for ANY evidence to back up your claim is that I should go through the statistics for every final for the last ten years to disprove your unsupported claim. How about you do the legwork to actually come up with a valid case to support your opinion instead of endlessly repeating unsubstantiated claims?

As for your semantic crap about who is and isn't a specialist forward or who counts as a small forward, all I can say to that is it sounds like a desperate attempt to remove players from consideration in case they disprove your point.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,093]

http://www.eaglesflyinghigh.com/news/news.php?id=270

...... whatever he is talented.

So he was drafted as a forward/mid. They have played him consistently as a forward and kept him out of their already stacked midfield.

[jnrmac 20,189]

Sssshhh its the midfield stoopid.....

[rjay 25,094]

As for your semantic crap about who is and isn't a specialist forward or who counts as a small forward, all I can say to that is it sounds like a desperate attempt to remove players from consideration in case they disprove your point.

Ok mate, so you go on considering Johnson as a small crumbing forward. I'm happy for it to be considered semantic, the guy was their key forward. Nothing desperate here just my opinion that small crumbing forwards are a thing of the past and overrated by many on this site. If I had the choice of Betts or Christiansen, I would take Christiansen he give me more options.

By the way I couldn't find one specialist small crumbing forward on the Port goal kicking list.

[dee-luded 2,959]

So he was drafted as a forward/mid. They have played him consistently as a forward and kept him out of their already stacked midfield.

thats good if you can afford to do that.. if you have enough gun mids to allow a more creative mid small forward to play more forward. It may be that he is more outside mid than a rugged inunder type, likely. & more elusive so helps to create forward pressure.

but the game imo has changed incredibly since 2009. & is way more responsible with more 2 way running & contested ball.

It looks to me that M&M is trying to change the balance & nature of the Blues style, that was built by Kernahan in Rattens time,,, in the old Blue way of plenty of fleet footed players.

....enter Roos, & then Lyon, & the Cats... bang!

Contested footy was back in Vogue... & we were caught with our pants around our ankles, holding Mortons, Bennells, & Davey's hands. not to mention gys, cook, etc etc...

IMO Eddy Betts is on the outer because he is One Dimension... a liability if things aren't going his way.

I think Milne was wasted in the grand finals when they had Montagna trying to carry the ball forward with a lack of pace & no kicking penetration, always under pressure... they needed Milne speed up around Wing-HalfForward, to help bring the ball up & deliver... IMO Montagna was a liability re the Saints ability to kick enough score. he wasn't damaging enough with ball in hand, to help his forwards.

The setup was flawed, & a Pies outfit that was no where near the best Premier team of the 2000's absorbed them, then the week after, dispatched them.

----------------------

* Re us, & small forwards... I'd like us to recruit hard at it types with some speed first,,,, that work hard both ways & have a bit of un-sociable play about them.

Leave the flashy small forwards til later,,, after we have hard edge to us & our culture... then that would be a good time to bring in some "Icing" types... lets not bring in any of the softer types we have just jettisoned in the past 2 or 3 years...

Edited September 17, 2013 by dee-luded

[RalphiusMaximus 6,093]

Ok mate, so you go on considering Johnson as a small crumbing forward. I'm happy for it to be considered semantic, the guy was their key forward. Nothing desperate here just my opinion that small crumbing forwards are a thing of the past and overrated by many on this site. If I had the choice of Betts or Christiansen, I would take Christiansen he give me more options.

By the way I couldn't find one specialist small crumbing forward on the Port goal kicking list.

And still you will not back up your case. To quote an interesting little article:

philosophy teachers owe it to our students to teach them how to construct and defend an argument

Of course, this is referring to the ability to produce verifiable facts to back up your stance and provide weight to your opinion. This is something that I have repeatedly asked you to do, to no avail. As such, I can only assume an uninformed opinion on your part. There is also a recent article dealing with strongly held but uninformed opinions which you may find interesting.

[rjay 25,094]

And still you will not back up your case. To quote an interesting little article:

Of course, this is referring to the ability to produce verifiable facts to back up your stance and provide weight to your opinion. This is something that I have repeatedly asked you to do, to no avail. As such, I can only assume an uninformed opinion on your part. There is also a recent article dealing with strongly held but uninformed opinions which you may find interesting.

I think I've backed up mine fully, you on the other hand have not come up with an instance to back up yours except for stats that don't relate GF's or players that aren't small crumbing forwards.

It seems instead that you wish to be condescending.

[Deez 298]

How does it prove your point? That I am unable to find Norm Smith counts for most of those years? The absence of evidence for one side does not prove the case for the other. You have consistently failed to provide any actual evidence to back up you opinion and simply resorted to stating it over and over again as fact. At least try to make an effort here. Give me figures. Give me something other than the statement that "in big games consistently let you down." You need to be able to back it up.

I'll also point out that but for a nasty off-break, Milne would have kicked the winning goal against the pies with seconds left on the clock in the drawn GF. As it was he was equal highest goal-scorer on the ground in both that game and the replay.

I will also address the following:

Firstly, LeCras is indeed a specialist forward. The fact that many of his goals come from marks is irrelevant. Also irrelevant is the fact that Brad Johnson was the primary scoring avenue for the dogs. The fact that they were able to make finals repeatedly with a small forward being the focus of their attack is if anything justification for my stance. He was clearly able to impact contests both during the home and away season and in finals.

Returning to my earlier posts, the figures I am presenting show that a small forward who is able to kick 50 or so goals in a season is not at all unusual or unattainable. I have listed a number of examples over the last decade. They need not be one-dimensional players as some seem to be suggesting. To claim that the only possible way to fill this role is to have genuine midfielders who can rotate through the forward line is at best a simplistic view. We are going to see again this year that the successful teams provide a mix of doctrines. Fremantle is very likely to play in the GF given their home prelim and they are playing a specialist small forward/tagger who's job is to negate attacking defenders and has still managed to kick 33 goals. Tell me he shouldn't be in their side. How about Luke Breust with 38 goals this year? What is he if not a specialist forward? Meanwhile Geelong and Sydney are more prone to the "midfielder first" mentality and rotate many players through as they need.

Well the thread started enquiring about specialist crumbling small forwards.... So if lecras stats suggest that he mostly takes marks on the lead as opposed to crumbling the packs... So it sort of is relevant in that he plays more like a medium sized forward and not like a crummer, which is the case for many names suggested in this thread. Ballantyne is more like Milne, not as good yet, great antagonist, but personally I think he was able to kick 33 or what ever it was due to freo lacking fire power, they need another key forward. There midfield is outstanding, if they had Pav and ind other key in the fwd line then the delivery to Ballantine would probably decrease.

I don't think anyone is saying specialist smells are rubbish don't go near them. What most are saying is it is usually better bang for buck getting a mid that can play forward.

[jnrmac 20,189]

its all about th emidfield sshhhsshhshshsh

[MadAsHell 4,215]

Neville Jetta & 4th round pick for Shane Savage!