Trade Talk, Supporter Fatigue and Neeld's Catch-22

[Range Rover 1,935]

Honestly, if we hit June next year and the threads on this board are once again dominated by talk of October trading and November drafting, I envisage a huge drop off in supporter interest.

This likely scenario is worrying as it may force Neeld and co to approach this off season with a 'short-term' fix approach over purely selecting the best available youngsters. We are already hearing noises to this effect from the club with their apparent willingness to offer up prized draft picks and entice Travis Cloke to the club.

No doubt Neeld will have taken note of Bailey's fate and won't want to go down the same path. Problem is, this draft is apparently replete with top end talent that stands us a good chance of unearthing some stars if we play our cards right. Still, even top end talent in a supposed 'super draft' will take time to develop, time Neeld may feel he may not be afforded if Melbourne have another disastrous season in '013.

An extremely tricky catch-22 is developing here for the MFC. What to do?

[P-man 13,366]

I'm sick to death of losing and being the league's gimme 4 points. Bring on the short term fixes!

Just not Cloke.

[Guest José Mourinho]

I honestly believe there are extenuating circumstances for the current supporter atmosphere.

- A new coaching regime with a drastically different gameplan has led to a poor record, positioning us well for drafting.

- HWFUA left us with a very good hand of draft picks in a draft dubbed the "super draft".

- This is the first "uncompromised" draft in 2 years.

- Finally, we have the son of a champion eligible for F/S selection, who looks like being a game-changer himself.

These factors add up to an intense focus on the draft well ahead of time.

I'm confident similar factors won't be present next season.

[rpfc 28,046]

No doubt Neeld will have taken note of Bailey's fate and won't want to go down the same path. Problem is, this draft is apparently replete with top end talent that stands us a good chance of unearthing some stars if we play our cards right. Still, even top end talent in a supposed 'super draft' will take time to develop, time Neeld may feel he may not be afforded if Melbourne have another disastrous season in '013.

An extremely tricky catch-22 is developing here for the MFC. What to do?

The lesson from the Bailey era was that list management isn't like a video game - you can't just get rid of all the older players and get the kids in and expect them to just get better. And this isn't a 'we should have kept Junior' argument because he wouldn't have been enough - he only would have saved Brad Green from the embarrassment of losing the captaincy.

We need to change how we do this 'rebuild' - and it has already been illustrated:

1. We got a 24 year old, 200cm power forward, in a trade whose instant respect for his club reinforces my own respect for this great club.

2. We went for a 24 year old former top 10 pick as a ready made 'tall' player. Has shown he can play a role in the backline into the medium term future.

3. A patent desire to give MacDonald, Bate, and Dunn time to ressurect their careers rather than let kids have games they might not have earned.

What is needed now is to not get carried away by those who think that we need to shed 10-12 players at the end of the year. The simple question that destroys this idea is - who replaces them? And if you can't answer that sufficiently then it is best to push them harder this pre-season in hopes that they can improve.

Green may retire, Bennell, Jetta, MacDonald, Dunn, and Bate may be moved off the primary list, and Rivers and Jamar may be moved to the veterans list. But with Nicho and Magner possibly moving into the primary list, we may only see 6-7 kids from the draft - less if we get a couple of experienced pros like Enright and Sewell in FA, or Boak in a trade. Even less if the only 'kids' we take are Picks 3, 4, 13, and 30ish.

The point of all that?

Go and get the good kids out there but we need to develop bigger bodies, better leadership, and a solid culture. And all that means - don't get 10 kids and throw them at this group.

[Outside fifty 967]

This year has been our Annus Horribilis. Everything that could go has gone wrong, and yet we are still standing. The chances of having another year like this in terms of just plain bad luck have to be slim. I don't want quick fixes anymore. I don't want to have to keep plastering over the cracks every couple of years. Be patient and lets start getting the foundations of this club right. Despite what many on these forums think we have never really addressed our deficiencies with any real intent. Yes from time to time we have tried to rebuild our list but never the entire club from the ground up. For the club to attain any semblance of sustained success this rebuild is critical.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Outside fifty

[Jonesbag 487]

Who will we lose at the end of the year?

My guess is Bate Dunn Green Davey Petterd Lawrence J Mac Bennell Spencer are all under the microscope.

We will need to bring in experience as well as youth. I would predict us to get cloke and draft 3 very talented midfielders that can compliment Jones Sylvia Grimes Trengove Gysberts Moloney.

If you put in Viney Toumpass Wines then its starting to look alright.

West Coast like?

[Deers 202]

This year will be the worst of it - I'm as confident as a realist-optimist can get on that one.

Neeld has gone about this year the right way in giving each player a chance to show their worth. At season's close, he should know to a large extent the root of our problems.

To borrow a turn of phrase from T.G.R. (for those 'ologists playing at home), this club is a rose bush that needs to be pruned, not just trimmed of its diseased branches.

[old dee 23,486]

Honestly, if we hit June next year and the threads on this board are once again dominated by talk of October trading and November drafting, I envisage a huge drop off in supporter interest.

This likely scenario is worrying as it may force Neeld and co to approach this off season with a 'short-term' fix approach over purely selecting the best available youngsters. We are already hearing noises to this effect from the club with their apparent willingness to offer up prized draft picks and entice Travis Cloke to the club.

No doubt Neeld will have taken note of Bailey's fate and won't want to go down the same path. Problem is, this draft is apparently replete with top end talent that stands us a good chance of unearthing some stars if we play our cards right. Still, even top end talent in a supposed 'super draft' will take time to develop, time Neeld may feel he may not be afforded if Melbourne have another disastrous season in '013.

An extremely tricky catch-22 is developing here for the MFC. What to do?

IMO RR we need to get both a good seasoned player and the best youth we can muster.

Not easy however again IMO the youth only drafting policy between 2008 and 2010 resulted in our team being made up mainly of second rate senior players and a bunch of kids trying to develop into seasoned players in a third of the time it probably takes for most kids to mature.

I suspect there are large numbers of the MFC faithfull that are close to the edge of throwing in the towel.

I am probably a good example,if the Dees are producing the same crap we have seen this year by the end on May 2013 I doubt I will be able to continue.

My attitude will be "call me when you are half decent."

I will probably get canned but right now the major thing that keeps me interested and going to games is this site.

Without a bit of fun on here and the varying opinions offered I would have given up on 2012 and probably 2013.

Carn the Dees but it is getting much harder

[Dr. Mubutu 763]

I honestly believe there are extenuating circumstances for the current supporter atmosphere.

- A new coaching regime with a drastically different gameplan has led to a poor record, positioning us well for drafting.

- HWFUA left us with a very good hand of draft picks in a draft dubbed the "super draft".

- This is the first "uncompromised" draft in 2 years.

- Finally, we have the son of a champion eligible for F/S selection, who looks like being a game-changer himself.

These factors add up to an intense focus on the draft well ahead of time.

I'm confident similar factors won't be present next season.

Agreed with all but the bolded. It's not the gameplan that has led to a poor record, but the players' seeming inability to actually implement it.

I'd probably add to that list: Desire to rid the club of footballers who can't play football.

[jnrmac 19,890]

The lesson from the Bailey era was that list management isn't like a video game - you can't just get rid of all the older players and get the kids in and expect them to just get better. And this isn't a 'we should have kept Junior' argument because he wouldn't have been enough - he only would have saved Brad Green from the embarrassment of losing the captaincy.

We need to change how we do this 'rebuild' - and it has already been illustrated:

1. We got a 24 year old, 200cm power forward, in a trade whose instant respect for his club reinforces my own respect for this great club.

2. We went for a 24 year old former top 10 pick as a ready made 'tall' player. Has shown he can play a role in the backline into the medium term future.

3. A patent desire to give MacDonald, Bate, and Dunn time to ressurect their careers rather than let kids have games they might not have earned.

What is needed now is to not get carried away by those who think that we need to shed 10-12 players at the end of the year. The simple question that destroys this idea is - who replaces them? And if you can't answer that sufficiently then it is best to push them harder this pre-season in hopes that they can improve.

Green may retire, Bennell, Jetta, MacDonald, Dunn, and Bate may be moved off the primary list, and Rivers and Jamar may be moved to the veterans list. But with Nicho and Magner possibly moving into the primary list, we may only see 6-7 kids from the draft - less if we get a couple of experienced pros like Enright and Sewell in FA, or Boak in a trade. Even less if the only 'kids' we take are Picks 3, 4, 13, and 30ish.

The point of all that?

Go and get the good kids out there but we need to develop bigger bodies, better leadership, and a solid culture. And all that means - don't get 10 kids and throw them at this group.

Agree with most of this.

Neeld has shown that he wants a couple of things:

1. hard bodies who can compete fiercely and not get pushed off the footy

2. multiple game styles where players play roles and are interchangeable

3. Leaders. Frankly we have been devoid of leaders since Neitz left. Our senior players have been extremely poor at leading on field particularly when we are getting thumped. Hence his choice of leaders in grimes and Trengove which is costing us in the short term but hopefully will prove to be a masterstroke.

He knows you can't draft kids and expect them to compete. Good teams like the Swans and Pies have journeymen types who can play roles. The difference between them and us is that we don't have the elite stars around which these role players do their thing. And we don't yet have the elite performance culture of the good clubs.

The Swans and WCE have been able to compete in multiple GFs and rebuild to be a force again. I am always suspicious of WCE and their bottoming out but the Swans I have an admiration for. Our culture is the biggest hurdle to overcome.

And with Neeld and Craig we have a chance to build that albeit it will be slow.

Edited July 12, 2012 by jnrmac

[McQueen 17,864]

You're right. Another season like this will take the wind out of my sails. I'll still remain a member, still watch as many games as I can (re-subscribe to Foxtel), still read D'land, still wear my Demons gear to footy training and get ridiculed by my team mates, still get emotional when we win a few games and still take on ridiculous cartons of beer bets that I invariably lose.

Bring it on.

[Pates 9,625]

....

Gifting games to kids was always a concern of mine back in the Baily era, in theory it makes sense. Expose them to the rigors of the game and fast-track their development, but where that falls down is that young players play on confidence and eventually getting smacked around by just about everyone in the competition takes it out of you.

Carlton have done it with a future hall of famer of the the game, and they've still struggled for a long time to genuinely match it with the best of the best. Our young players have been devoid of real leadership for too long, and that's who they look to to show the way.

I'm happy to see Neeld taking his time with the likes of Cook and Coach, both would've been playing under Baily by now I guarantee it. But rather than sending them to the wolves he's letting them find their feet and truly earn their spot (though I'd hope Couch has done enough from last week).

Someone said to me that if we allow Neeld to have his full 3 years, and we have another dog year next year we will die as a club. Bulls&*t. We're stronger than the Kangaroos, the Bulldogs, or St Kilda, and their still going.

Mark isn't above criticism, but we must allow him to enact his vision on the club.

[thaipantsman 180]

I'm sick to death of losing and being the league's gimme 4 points. Bring on the short term fixes!

Just not Cloke.

an ummm, it's about balance. Short and long term. With Free Agency blooding all short term will become a problem because by the time they get good, 3- 5 years they will move to another club offering big$$. This is why we need to consider some mid 25'rs that are good, i.e., Clokey. Why do you think Maggies are busting arse to try to keep him within the cap

[thaipantsman 180]

I'm sick to death of losing and being the league's gimme 4 points. Bring on the short term fixes!

Just not Cloke.

Hei PMan,

Clokey's not bad. Remember what we were saying about Clark after Round one? And before that?? Freo is busting arse to get him and Magpies want to keep him...BIG TIME...if he does get to Melbourne next year watch everything turn around. Would suit RR and Neeld's game plan

[Demon trucker 1,800]

Some time i wish the club would just fold my wife cant watch the dees with me,and does not want me to watch them at home, i dont like to play for high picks, youth without a leading experienced players to show them the way just does not work.

[beelzebub 23,197]

Rpfc...that(above) probably the most coherent assessment of approach posted in some time.

Why anyone doesnt understand this ..... Or some of the other offerings by BH eg baffles me.

We cant go from F to Z in one step but we can take a few decent strides with judicious trading and an eye (not both )to the draft. We have no 'balance' and we need thst back in order to go forward .

I dont think Neeld will panic and go ultra short term in fixes. He has a plan. The club believes it to be good. Im happy to let it play out.

We're a very patient lot. We have had to be. Keep the faith fellow Dees

Edited July 12, 2012 by belzebub59

[Guest José Mourinho]

Agreed with all but the bolded. It's not the gameplan that has led to a poor record, but the players' seeming inability to actually implement it.

I'd probably add to that list: Desire to rid the club of footballers who can't play football.

Substitute "led" for "contributed".

[The Chazz 4,077]

Who will we lose at the end of the year?

My guess is Bate Dunn Green Davey Petterd Lawrence J Mac Bennell Spencer are all under the microscope.

We will need to bring in experience as well as youth. I would predict us to get cloke and draft 3 very talented midfielders that can compliment Jones Sylvia Grimes Trengove Gysberts Moloney.

If you put in Viney Toumpass Wines then its starting to look alright.

West Coast like?

What about Blease, Watts, Morton, Strauss? These are all first round selections that at some stage we all would've said "imagine when they start playing with <<insert senior players names>>". Now I'm hearing "add Viney, Toumpass, Wines, etc to our list and it's starting to look alright". When will it stop? Then people are still wanting to trade for the 17 year old draft.

I'm not sure what I think. One minute I'm just wishing that our so-called best players, or in my opinion, the ones that should be (ie high draft picks), could have a preseason where they are all on the park, and can actually play some consistent footy with each other through a season. The players like Trengove, Watts, Blease, Morton, Tapscott, Gysberts, Jones, Strauss, Grimes, Frawley, Cook. These are basically the "top shelf" of what we picked up in the recent shite times, and it's semi-comforting to know that not once have they all played in the same team.

The next minute I'm just questioning if they are any friggin good, and I'm just not sure. They're good, but are they good enough to win a flag?

For half a decade we have put up with poor performances, admittingly there have been genuine "excuses", such as debt, training facilities. But I've had enough. It's not just the last 5 years for me - the last 5 years has topped it off. With no onfield sign of improvement, it is a total disgrace, and amazingly (I never, ever thought I'd say the words), is losing me as a supporter.

[Jonesbag 487]

What about Blease, Watts, Morton, Strauss? These are all first round selections that at some stage we all would've said "imagine when they start playing with <<insert senior players names>>". Now I'm hearing "add Viney, Toumpass, Wines, etc to our list and it's starting to look alright". When will it stop? Then people are still wanting to trade for the 17 year old draft.

I'm not sure what I think. One minute I'm just wishing that our so-called best players, or in my opinion, the ones that should be (ie high draft picks), could have a preseason where they are all on the park, and can actually play some consistent footy with each other through a season. The players like Trengove, Watts, Blease, Morton, Tapscott, Gysberts, Jones, Strauss, Grimes, Frawley, Cook. These are basically the "top shelf" of what we picked up in the recent shite times, and it's semi-comforting to know that not once have they all played in the same team.

The next minute I'm just questioning if they are any friggin good, and I'm just not sure. They're good, but are they good enough to win a flag?

For half a decade we have put up with poor performances, admittingly there have been genuine "excuses", such as debt, training facilities. But I've had enough. It's not just the last 5 years for me - the last 5 years has topped it off. With no onfield sign of improvement, it is a total disgrace, and amazingly (I never, ever thought I'd say the words), is losing me as a supporter.

I would have added them in but I was just naming our starting midfielders.

I think we all know how you feel though, with 2004 being our last really successful year its been a hard slog and it does take its toll. Thank god for alcohol

[The Chazz 4,077]

I would have added them in but I was just naming our starting midfielders.

I think we all know how you feel though, with 2004 being our last really successful year its been a hard slog and it does take its toll. Thank god for alcohol

At the time, I would like to have thought Morton and Blease would be considered part of our midfield.

My point is, I'm over the the draft! I know you need to draft players in, but reality is, a majority of the time Clubs will only have 1 first round choice. We have 3 this year. Where we will take Viney in unknown, I'm of the view that it is definitely possible that we will use a 2nd round pick. Is it probable? No-one knows, so don't pretend you do. If we can get him and still have our 3 first round picks available, we must use at least one to attract an established player like Boak. If we get Viney with a 2nd-rounder, I see no issue whatsoever with offering up Pick 4 - we still have Pick 3 and 12-ish = a stronger postion than any other Club.

In answer to the OP, we ask for the players to do the team thing, it's what Bailey did as a coach, and I expect/demand Neeld does the same. 3 x 1st round draftee's as well as Viney, in my opinion, isn't the team thing. That's my opinion, given the last 5 years and the state of the list/stage of development.

[jumbo returns 6,703]

IMO RR we need to get both a good seasoned player and the best youth we can muster.

Not easy however again IMO the youth only drafting policy between 2008 and 2010 resulted in our team being made up mainly of second rate senior players and a bunch of kids trying to develop into seasoned players in a third of the time it probably takes for most kids to mature.

I suspect there are large numbers of the MFC faithfull that are close to the edge of throwing in the towel.

I am probably a good example,if the Dees are producing the same crap we have seen this year by the end on May 2013 I doubt I will be able to continue.

My attitude will be "call me when you are half decent."

I will probably get canned but right now the major thing that keeps me interested and going to games is this site.

Without a bit of fun on here and the varying opinions offered I would have given up on 2012 and probably 2013.

Carn the Dees but it is getting much harder

You'll keep at it - you know you will.

It's in your blood!

[old dee 23,486]

You'll keep at it - you know you will.

It's in your blood!

Sounds like some deadly diease JR

Come to think of it probably is.

wish I could think of a smart name but alas my brain is in the same condition as the team this afternoon .

DC where are you when I need you?

Edited July 12, 2012 by old dee

[Junior 46]

At the time, I would like to have thought Morton and Blease would be considered part of our midfield.

My point is, I'm over the the draft! I know you need to draft players in, but reality is, a majority of the time Clubs will only have 1 first round choice. We have 3 this year. Where we will take Viney in unknown, I'm of the view that it is definitely possible that we will use a 2nd round pick. Is it probable? No-one knows, so don't pretend you do. If we can get him and still have our 3 first round picks available, we must use at least one to attract an established player like Boak. If we get Viney with a 2nd-rounder, I see no issue whatsoever with offering up Pick 4 - we still have Pick 3 and 12-ish = a stronger postion than any other Club.

In answer to the OP, we ask for the players to do the team thing, it's what Bailey did as a coach, and I expect/demand Neeld does the same. 3 x 1st round draftee's as well as Viney, in my opinion, isn't the team thing. That's my opinion, given the last 5 years and the state of the list/stage of development.

2 of those early picks are a direct result of $cully f**king us around last year. That is one of the significant factors in our ongoing struggle in my view. He would have been very handy in our midfield this year. We can bag him all we want but the kid has got some pace.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

I am all for Neeld improving our list - either through the draft or trading

All you dooms sayers relax - you aren't making the decisions.

If Neeld's first year of bringing Clark in is anything to by- I am prepared to back his decisions 100%

PS - for all of you who want improvement now - you need experienced players to win games - going to the draft will not bring instant success

[The heart beats true 17,756]

I honestly believe there are extenuating circumstances for the current supporter atmosphere.

- A new coaching regime with a drastically different gameplan has led to a poor record, positioning us well for drafting.

- HWFUA left us with a very good hand of draft picks in a draft dubbed the "super draft".

- This is the first "uncompromised" draft in 2 years.

- Finally, we have the son of a champion eligible for F/S selection, who looks like being a game-changer himself.

These factors add up to an intense focus on the draft well ahead of time.

I'm confident similar factors won't be present next season.

Honestly none of these things really add more interest to me. I'm not having a go at you Jose, in fact I wish this list was the reason I was interested in the draft. I'm interested in the draft for one very sad reason - we are shite and have showed nothing to look forward to. The prospect of a couple of new experienced players and a few kids for the future is a lot better than complaining about how 2/3rds of the team looks to be going backwards and everyone seems to have forgotten how to hit a target.

In terms of Neeld's dilemma I don't really feel sympathy for Neeld and the FD. He spoke about making us the hardest team to play against and I really hope he succeeds, but I'm holding the club to a high standard and I expect results. Its an industry built on success, not potential. I don't care if it's a short term solution. I want some freakin' competitiveness.