Just the facts...

[buck_nekkid 5,819]

OK, I have heard so much. But what is TRUE? What are the facts? It seems there have been a lot said about the senior players and others in the club. What are the FACTS?

If any of what has been said is true, then crucifixion is too good for them. But before I rush down to Bunnings for hammer and nails, can someone point me in the direction of something which is not innuendo, rumour or second hand water-cooler gossip?

We have a reason to be Pxxxed off right now, but all I have heard is BS from commentators and innuendo. Can anyone point me to evidence?

[Sir Why You Little 36,670]

OK, I have heard so much. But what is TRUE? What are the facts? It seems there have been a lot said about the senior players and others in the club. What are the FACTS?

If any of what has been said is true, then crucifixion is too good for them. But before I rush down to Bunnings for hammer and nails, can someone point me in the direction of something which is not innuendo, rumour or second hand water-cooler gossip?

We have a reason to be Pxxxed off right now, but all I have heard is BS from commentators and innuendo. Can anyone point me to evidence?

This years scoreboards do not lie.

[buck_nekkid 5,819]

True WYL. They don't. They are the outcome of something. I would love to start seeing facts rather than innuendo. In fact, we all deserve it. Then we can really bring the blow torch to bear and start the job of fixing what is on those scoreboards. Otherwise we just chase BS and the culprits aren't held to account.

[Striker475 696]

OK, I have heard so much. But what is TRUE? What are the facts? It seems there have been a lot said about the senior players and others in the club. What are the FACTS?

If any of what has been said is true, then crucifixion is too good for them. But before I rush down to Bunnings for hammer and nails, can someone point me in the direction of something which is not innuendo, rumour or second hand water-cooler gossip?

We have a reason to be Pxxxed off right now, but all I have heard is BS from commentators and innuendo. Can anyone point me to evidence?

Brent Moloney's manager has, in fact, shopped him around.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-premiership/reigning-melbourne-demons-best-and-fairest-winner-brent-moloney-to-field-offers-from-rival-afl-clubs/story-e6frf3e3-1226350536255

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Unfortunately history shows that inflammatory innuendo and rumours are much more compelling to the masses than any sophisticated analysis of established facts/evidence.

A zero from eight start makes it pretty easy for the commentators to generate such innuendo and rumour. And that makes for interesting news and drama.

It's more interesting than saying we have a new coach who's trying to introduce a professionalism and hardness into a youngish list that's never experienced it before, and we're only 8 games into the new era.

[Macca 16,645]

OK, I have heard so much. But what is TRUE? What are the facts? It seems there have been a lot said about the senior players and others in the club. What are the FACTS?

If any of what has been said is true, then crucifixion is too good for them. But before I rush down to Bunnings for hammer and nails, can someone point me in the direction of something which is not innuendo, rumour or second hand water-cooler gossip?

We have a reason to be Pxxxed off right now, but all I have heard is BS from commentators and innuendo. Can anyone point me to evidence?

None of our senior players can get a kick .(as a generalisation)

Out of 10 - ratings this season ( actual output , injuries aside )

Keeping in mind that a 10/10 is from a great player having a great year - Barassi , Warne-Smith , Flower .

Moloney - 2

Sylvia - 1

Green - 1

Davey - 1

Jamar - 5

Rivers - 5

Bate - 3

Dunn - 1

Macdonald - 2

Martin - 1

When you break it down it's damning .

Edit - I've given Bate a 3 instead of 2 .

Edited May 22, 2012 by Macca

[Sir Why You Little 36,670]

None of our senior players can get a kick .

Out of 10 - ratings this season ( actual output , injuries aside )

Moloney - 2

Sylvia - 1

Green - 1

Davey - 1

Jamar - 5

Rivers - 5

Bate - 3

Dunn - 1

Macdonald - 2

Martin - 1

When you break it down it's damning .

Edit - I've given Bate a 3 instead of 2 .

Ox named 15. Who are the other 5??

[Macca 16,645]

Ox named 15. Who are the other 5??

I reckon the ox was just chucking a number (15) out there in frustration - may be wrong on that .

The reality is that 8 of the 10 I listed are in serious trouble . And Jamar is a free agent . Some are contracted but that may not matter .

[Sir Why You Little 36,670]

I reckon the ox was just chucking a number (15) out there in frustration - may be wrong on that .

The reality is that 8 of the 10 I listed are in serious trouble . And Jamar is a free agent . Some are contracted but that may not matter .

Fair call....still a very long list.

[Macca 16,645]

Fair call....still a very long list.

Believe it or not , a few of our senior players may have some trade value . Mainly because of the 2 extra teams . I don't care if they burn us either . If they're not interested in putting in for our club right now then it's cya later .

I really believe we need to bring in experienced players from free agency and maybe in trading . Another poster said it yesterday - get as many good , tough experienced players into our club to replace the one's we've got .

At this stage I'd only keep Jamar , Rivers , Bate , Macdonald and Martin . I've stuck up for a one or 2 of the other 5 in the past but the events of this season have changed my mind .

Btw this stuff about players protesting because of Bailey getting the flick or not liking Schwab or Connolly makes me ill . I'm not sure I want to believe it , but if its true , it's weak minded .

[Radar Detector 1,347]

Bit tough on Rivers, has been very good again this year. Bit easy on Jamar too, has been largely ineffective at ruck contests and a liability around th ground. Others all fair.

[Macca 16,645]

Bit tough on Rivers, has been very good again this year. Bit easy on Jamar too, has been largely ineffective at ruck contests and a liability around th ground. Others all fair.

Well I'm a hard marker RD . 7/10 I'd regard as good to very good for Rivers . 5 is fair to good . He's been ok , but nothing startling . Jamar at 5 for the same reason . Both are a bit below their best .

Just an opinion by the way . I'm by no means an expert !

Edited May 21, 2012 by Macca

[Sir Why You Little 36,670]

Yes we will need mature bodies in the draft...no doubt.

Who are not Burnt out!!! 5-6 years of playing we need....

[Macca 16,645]

Yes we will need mature bodies in the draft...no doubt.

Who are not Burnt out!!! 5-6 years of playing we need....

But we may have to compromise for the time being . A few years from 2 or 3 wily veterans wouldn't be such a bad thing . Can't be a retirement home so we'll have to choose wisely . And hope they want to come . We need to finish off the 2nd half of the season well , otherwise .........

[Bobby McKenzie 2,331]

None of our senior players can get a kick .(as a generalisation)

Out of 10 - ratings this season ( actual output , injuries aside )

Moloney - 2

Sylvia - 1

Green - 1

Davey - 1

Jamar - 5

Rivers - 5

Bate - 3

Dunn - 1

Macdonald - 2

Martin - 1

When you break it down it's damning .

Edit - I've given Bate a 3 instead of 2 .

Martin is hardly a senior player. How old is he?

[Macca 16,645]

Martin is hardly a senior player. How old is he?

25 . I rated all players 25 or older . He's only a senior player in age BM so you're right .

[Bobby McKenzie 2,331]

25 . I rated all players 25 or older . He's only a senior player in age BM so you're right .

Thanks for your explanation Macca. Jonesy, who is 24 years, is more of a senior player than the older Martin if you get my drift?

[Macca 16,645]

Thanks for your explanation Macca. Jonesy, who is 24 years, is more of a senior player than the older Martin if you get my drift?

Yes , you're spot on BM . Frawley , Clark and Garland for the same reason . Martin shouldn't really be on that list in terms of his experience . I wonder if Neeld and co have a similar list !? Not a great list to be on right now . I feel for Rivers and Jamar really !

[buck_nekkid 5,819]

We are completely underperforming, the ratings, even if we discuss the finer points are damning.

But what is causing it? Where are the truths so we can sharpen the right knives? So far all I hear is claim, counterclaim and innuendo. Are there any real issues or are we just simply [censored] and blaming and trying to find excuses?

I want to know who needs sanctioning, and why. Until this happens, 'he said, she said' will allow the culprits to hide. This is no longer acceptable.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

But we may have to compromise for the time being . A few years from 2 or 3 wily veterans wouldn't be such a bad thing . Can't be a retirement home so we'll have to choose wisely . And hope they want to come . We need to finish off the 2nd half of the season well , otherwise .........

Agree with that, we need a couple of Luke Power types that can play but no longer fit the bill at their existing clubs.

The fire must still be in the belly though.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Facts ? I like facts and I'll give you some.

Two years ago to the day bookies were offering odds on whether Richmond would win a game for the season. Many people didn't think they would. There were touted as the worst team since Fitzroy in 1996. Like us they were nought/8. They had a slightly better percentage than us. We're travelling no better than a side considered the worst in 15 years. In fact, slightly worse.

Dean Bailey's first year was a train wreck. He lost his first two games by a combined total of almost 200 points. At round 8 his side was also stone motherless last. They had a slightly better percentage than us.

Trengove in his third year averages less possessions and marks than his first. Every possession he has is under immense pressure. The classy footballer that reminded some of a young Gerard Healy is nowhere to be found. Other young players, such as Cale Morton, are worse now than when they were in their first or second year. Grimes was a better footballer 3 years ago.

I support Mark Neeld, but something is horribly wrong. The President last night stated that "the players need to buy in". The President is admitting that a third of the way through the season that some players haven't bought in with the senior coach. Why ? That is a massive issue. Two thirds of a side that inflicted Paul Roos' worst defeat as a senior coach just lost by 100 points to the same side, minus Goodes and Mumford. This is a side that beat one of the current premiership favourites last year by 96 points.

With due respect to Ron and some others, this isn't just a case of a new coach with a new game-plan and a young list that's going to take time. There are clearly fundamental relationship issues down at that club. The senior players must take responsibility and the senior coach must take responsibility. There are senior players and perhaps administrative personnel that must be moved on at year's end. And I wouldn't want to be the senior coach if nothing changes by year's end.

The relationship between the coach and some players is toxic.

[Geddy Lee 582]

Facts ? I like facts and I'll give you some.

Two years ago to the day bookies were offering odds on whether Richmond would win a game for the season. Many people didn't think they would. There were touted as the worst team since Fitzroy in 1996. Like us they were nought/8. They had a slightly better percentage than us. We're travelling no better than a side considered the worst in 15 years. In fact, slightly worse.

Dean Bailey's first year was a train wreck. He lost his first two games by a combined total of almost 200 points. At round 8 his side was also stone motherless last. They had a slightly better percentage than us.

Trengove in his third year averages less possessions and marks than his first. Every possession he has is under immense pressure. The classy footballer that reminded some of a young Gerard Healy is nowhere to be found. Other young players, such as Cale Morton, are worse now than when they were in their first or second year. Grimes was a better footballer 3 years ago.

I support Mark Neeld, but something is horribly wrong. The President last night stated that "the players need to buy in". The President is admitting that a third of the way through the season that some players haven't bought in with the senior coach. Why ? That is a massive issue. Two thirds of a side that inflicted Paul Roos' worst defeat as a senior coach just lost by 100 points to the same side, minus Goodes and Mumford. This is a side that beat one of the current premiership favourites last year by 96 points.

With due respect to Ron and some others, this isn't just a case of a new coach with a new game-plan and a young list that's going to take time. There are clearly fundamental relationship issues down at that club. The senior players must take responsibility and the senior coach must take responsibility. There are senior players and perhaps administrative personnel that must be moved on at year's end. And I wouldn't want to be the senior coach if nothing changes by year's end.

The relationship between the coach and some players is toxic.

I think this point is worth discussing. This is not directed at you BH but made me think of our past performances. Often when commentators and fans gloss over Melbourne's performance in 2010-11 they will mention the games where we annihilated decent opposition at our home ground. Let's have a look at the games we trot out (when we're deciding whether to tie the noose or not):

Round 5 2010 Sat 24 Apr Brisbane MCG 36396 Win 103-53

Round 17 2010 Sun 25 Jul Sydney MCG 29374 Win 142-69

Round 7 2011 Sun 8 May Adelaide MCG 19987 Win 149-53

Round 13 2011 Sun 19 Jun Fremantle MCG 19092 Win 149-60

I was at every single one of these games and the common theme is, whilst we can delude ourselves all we like, our opposition did not turn up to play on these days. They were not switched on; they were lethargic, listless and Melbourne-esque. It was clear as day to me. A game where Brent Moloney gets 19 clearances or whatever he got was not against switched on opponents.

In the last three years (2010-onwards) I can think of only three games against decent opposition where we went toe-to-toe all day: Collingwood X 2 (2010) and Sydney Rnd 1 (2011).

Our playing group is uninspired, soft, and the results above actually disguise how ordinary our players are. We are in a deep hole and our young budding stars (Grimes, Trengove etc) are being sucked in with the rest of them.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Geddy Lee

[bing181 9,005]

Facts ? I like facts and I'll give you some.

Two thirds of a side that inflicted Paul Roos' worst defeat as a senior coach just lost by 100 points to the same side, minus Goodes and Mumford. This is a side that beat one of the current premiership favourites last year by 96 points.

As good an example as you'll ever find of being selective with the "facts". Those wins were not in any way the norm, or representative of our form or of our season(s).

Not to mention, quite what beating a team that was rubbish last year but is doing OK this year has to do with anything ... we didn't beat any premiership favourites last year.

Though ... Adelaide as a premiership favourite???

[Hannibal 5,814]

I think this point is worth discussing. This is not directed at you BH but made me think of our past performances. Often when commentators and fans gloss over Melbourne's performance in 2010-11 they will mention the games where we annihilated decent opposition at our home ground. Let's have a look at the games we trot out (when we're deciding whether to tie the noose or not):

Round 5 2010 Sat 24 Apr Brisbane MCG 36396 Win 103-53

Round 17 2010 Sun 25 Jul Sydney MCG 29374 Win 142-69

Round 7 2011 Sun 8 May Adelaide MCG 19987 Win 149-53

Round 13 2011 Sun 19 Jun Fremantle MCG 19092 Win 149-60

I was at every single one of these games and the common theme is, whilst we can delude ourselves all we like, our opposition did not turn up to play on these days. They were not switched on; they were lethargic, listless and Melbourne-esque. It was clear as day to me. A game where Brent Moloney gets 19 clearances or whatever he got was not against switched on opponents.

In the last three years (2010-onwards) I can think of only three games against decent opposition where we went toe-to-toe all day: Collingwood X 2 (2010) and Sydney Rnd 1 (2011).

Our playing group is uninspired, soft, and the results above actually disguise how ordinary our players are. We are in a deep hole and our young budding stars (Grimes, Trengove etc) are being sucked in with the rest of them.

I agree, which is why I wanted Bailey gone. Our average losses for the year were massive. Our 2011 was worse than 2010 no matter what the media commentators are now saying. Getting rid of Bailey was the right decision.

My point is that many of these players have shown that they can play with run and spread, they can pressure the opposition, they can string together consecutive good quarters, etc, but many are now just going through the motions. They're not working nearly hard enough. They're not playing with courage.

[Sir Why You Little 36,670]

Agree with that, we need a couple of Luke Power types that can play but no longer fit the bill at their existing clubs.

The fire must still be in the belly though.

Frank "Bluey" Adams would be just perfect xx