"It's the Spine Stupid!!"

[Demon Dynasty 15,675]

In the end we haven't enough grunt up the spine.

- Power Forward.

- Nice tallish defender with big bod/strength that can take a big power forward (solid play too).

- 'A' grade grunt in & under mid fielder with footy smarts/skills and extremely fast reflexes/top line agility. I guess many of the things that would make him an A grader lol. And preferably another who has a little more outside gut running ability/ to clear effectively.

Add to this our severe over-weighting of youth (at this point), and IMO you have 2 major issues that result in us struggling to piece together any consistency from week to week. Too many holes to fill up the spine and inconsistency from youth not quite capable of winning their role most weeks, let alone covering the huge spine gaps.

Yes i can hear some of you mulling this over and saying "well so what, it's a youth thing.....just wait for our boys to mature and have faith". Personally, apart from Watts (and maybe a few i haven't seen from Casey yet who would be 3 - 4 years away from maturing ... at least), i don't see the other gaps being filled at this point. And even Watts, although i'm sure he'll be very good once he matures, i'm not sure he'll end up being a power forward as such.

Having said that, another demonoid also put up Petterd as a trade option on an earlier post here, saying that we have too many players the ilk of Petterd, Howe, Jurrah, Bate, Dunn, Green and Sylvia (Sylvia maybe not quite the same league in height but plays forward as well). I'm not saying Petterd is the only one to trade or THE one to trade from these either btw. Nor that we have to trade medium forwards alone in order to get what's needed. But his post does have some validity re overweight (not in the fat stakes!) medium forwards.

As to who to trade etc., i'm putting my faith and hope that the new Coach and his team will trade/draft to turn it around. Would have to be some juicy trade bait put out there i would think, if we're to get what's needed.

I can see us slowly improving on this year as we mature (not hard given this year's outcome i realise) , but more than likely being mediocre (at best).....for quite some time, unless we fix the spine in readiness for our younger talent becoming fully mature in 2 - 3 years.

Your views?

Edited August 27, 2011 by Rusty Nails

[BAMF 3,787]

In an ideal world we would have recruited talls first and mids later. Our recruiting dept decided that the tall's in the 07,08,09 drafts were not great so picked mids instead.

Looking at our backline Frawley and Garland are good against most opposition, but we do struggle when there are multiple big bodied talls. (Collingwood, Hawks, West Coast)

We do have Cook, Fitzpatrick, McDonald, Gawn and Davis coming through the reserves.

I honestly think we need to recruit another big bodied key forward and maybe another tall defender. After all, not all of the recruits will make it.

[Damo 3,005]

I thought it was the midfield, so Im stupid.

Stronger core, taller midfield that isnt knocked off the ball.

I dont include Grimes or Trengove as I dont see them being quick (enough)off the mark to be in the middle. Scully, Maloney and Jones are all shortish. Gys and Morton are pushed out of the way.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Franky_31

[loges 6,132]

In the end we haven't enough grunt up the spine.

- Power Forward.

- Nice tallish defender with big bod/strength that can take a big power forward (solid play too).

- 'A' grade grunt in & under mid fielder with footy smarts/skills and extremely fast reflexes/top line agility. I guess many of the things that would make him an A grader lol. And preferably another who has a little more outside gut running ability/ to clear effectively.

Add to this our severe over-weighting of youth (at this point), and IMO you have 2 major issues that result in us struggling to piece together any consistency from week to week. Too many holes to fill up the spine and inconsistency from youth not quite capable of winning their role most weeks, let alone covering the huge spine gaps.

Yes i can hear some of you mulling this over and saying "well so what, it's a youth thing.....just wait for our boys to mature and have faith". Personally, apart from Watts (and maybe a few i haven't seen from Casey yet who would be 3 - 4 years away from maturing ... at least), i don't see the other gaps being filled at this point. And even Watts, although i'm sure he'll be very good once he matures, i'm not sure he'll end up being a power forward as such.

Having said that, another demonoid also put up Petterd as a trade option on an earlier post here, saying that we have too many players the ilk of Petterd, Howe, Jurrah, Bate, Dunn, Green and Sylvia (Sylvia maybe not quite the same league in height but plays forward as well). I'm not saying Petterd is the only one to trade or THE one to trade from these either btw. Nor that we have to trade medium forwards alone in order to get what's needed. But his post does have some validity re overweight (not in the fat stakes!) medium forwards.

As to who to trade etc., i'm putting my faith and hope that the new Coach and his team will trade/draft to turn it around. Would have to be some juicy trade bait put out there i would think, if we're to get what's needed.

I can see us slowly improving on this year as we mature (not hard given this year's outcome i realise) , but more than likely being mediocre (at best).....for quite some time, unless we fix the spine in readiness for our younger talent becoming fully mature in 2 - 3 years.

Your views?

Absolutely nailed it, and how much better would all those medium forwards be with a power forward to work off. Read Jurrah in particular

[damon the demon 57]

i thought it was the substandard skills. so i'm stupid too. the long sought after power forward ain't gonna do nuthin with our terrible skills. that's what needs a fixin me thinks.

[maximum bob 462]

In the end we haven't enough grunt up the spine.

- Power Forward.

- Nice tallish defender with big bod/strength that can take a big power forward (solid play too).

- 'A' grade grunt in & under mid fielder with footy smarts/skills and extremely fast reflexes/top line agility. I guess many of the things that would make him an A grader lol. And preferably another who has a little more outside gut running ability/ to clear effectively.

Add to this our severe over-weighting of youth (at this point), and IMO you have 2 major issues that result in us struggling to piece together any consistency from week to week. Too many holes to fill up the spine and inconsistency from youth not quite capable of winning their role most weeks, let alone covering the huge spine gaps.

Yes i can hear some of you mulling this over and saying "well so what, it's a youth thing.....just wait for our boys to mature and have faith". Personally, apart from Watts (and maybe a few i haven't seen from Casey yet who would be 3 - 4 years away from maturing ... at least), i don't see the other gaps being filled at this point. And even Watts, although i'm sure he'll be very good once he matures, i'm not sure he'll end up being a power forward as such.

Having said that, another demonoid also put up Petterd as a trade option on an earlier post here, saying that we have too many players the ilk of Petterd, Howe, Jurrah, Bate, Dunn, Green and Sylvia (Sylvia maybe not quite the same league in height but plays forward as well). I'm not saying Petterd is the only one to trade or THE one to trade from these either btw. Nor that we have to trade medium forwards alone in order to get what's needed. But his post does have some validity re overweight (not in the fat stakes!) medium forwards.

As to who to trade etc., i'm putting my faith and hope that the new Coach and his team will trade/draft to turn it around. Would have to be some juicy trade bait put out there i would think, if we're to get what's needed.

I can see us slowly improving on this year as we mature (not hard given this year's outcome i realise) , but more than likely being mediocre (at best).....for quite some time, unless we fix the spine in readiness for our younger talent becoming fully mature in 2 - 3 years.

Your views?

[maximum bob 462]

My view. You're trying way too hard. Take a breather.

[Demon Dynasty 15,675]

i thought it was the substandard skills. so i'm stupid too. the long sought after power forward ain't gonna do nuthin with our terrible skills. that's what needs a fixin me thinks.

No....no one is stupid on here. Some might argue i am however for posting this ~ G'day Maximum! Hows it goin mate! haha

Just a headline to highlight a view and more directed at myself for thinking we would probably fudge our way through this season and cover our gaps somehow.

I agree on the skills side. Certainly not saying the spine/youth matters are the only answer to our probs! Sure, If we murder the ball it wont matter much who we have up forward (unless we got a Buddy running around or similar who's impressive off the ground as well).

However, you don't think our skills and boys would up the ante a little with some key appointments (more senior as well) and the pressure coming off some of our younger crew? Ie., the opposition having a few more core problems to cover and worry about?

Edited August 27, 2011 by Rusty Nails

[Guest Gareth Keenan]

My views?

You're completely on the wrong track.

It all starts with the midfield.

[Demon Dynasty 15,675]

My views?

You're completely on the wrong track.

It all starts with the midfield.

Ummmm..... well not quite completely i don't think. I always thought the spine included the mid field or at least a gun or 2 rotating through there (or together), hence this point in my post......

"..... 'A' grade grunt in & under mid fielder with footy smarts/skills and extremely fast reflexes/top line agility. I guess many of the things that would make him an A grader lol. And preferably another who has a little more outside gut running ability/ to clear effectively."........

I agree. It's a key component.

[loges 6,132]

Yes we have one genuine key position player in the whole side, not a problem at all.

[RalphiusMaximus 5,993]

- Nice tallish defender with big bod/strength that can take a big power forward (solid play too).

We've got one of those. Unfortunately he's out of favour with the powers that be and has spent the season playing fullback at Casey and monstering the poor VFL forwards.

[Demon Dynasty 15,675]

We've got one of those. Unfortunately he's out of favour with the powers that be and has spent the season playing fullback at Casey and monstering the poor VFL forwards.

Yeh i hear you Max.

I would've liked him to get a look in for at least the Geelong, Carlton and West Coast matches (and beyond if showing something). Just to see if he'd progressed at all, but especially to try and match him up on the 3 talls that the Cats took in, with West Coast having decent quality there as well.

Must say he looked unsure of himself and lacking confidence prior to his demotion. Not saying he hasn't turned it around given such a long stint at Casey. Just wasn't sold on what i'd seen up till then.

Maybe i'm being too harsh and he was still learning the trade having 55 games under his belt. The old saying that taller players take a little longer to come through.

You think we'll try and trade him or....?

[Axis of Bob 10,266]

Tall defenders is the least of our problems. Frawley, Garland, Rivers, McDonald, Davis, Warnock ..... how many do we need? Ask Adelaide and Hawthorn how much they would be willing to pay for a backline that read like that!

I'm not worried about the tall forwards either.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Axis of Bob

[RalphiusMaximus 5,993]

Tall defenders is the least of our problems. Frawley, Garland, Rivers, McDonald, Davis, Warnock ..... how many do we need? Ask Adelaide and Hawthorn how much they would be willing to pay for a backline that read like that!

I'm not worried about the tall forwards either.

Agreed. We need at least one top quality small defender and we need to improve our clearance players, whether by making the ones we have better or by trading I know not. A good crumbing forward would be nice too, but we have several options in that area that could improve given time and more work.

[Mallee Bull 97]

Frawley can handle any power forward, its only when there are two that we are exposed. Watts has grown this year, massively, and we have cook developing in the VFL, so he should debut next year after a second pre-season. Our concerns are the midfield. We need to keep injecting quality talent into the midfield. Personally, I think we really need to do what StKilda did with Hammil, and trade for a big, experienced leader to teach and protect our talented youngsters. I love Moloney, Rivers, Green and Davey, but as leaders they have been pathetic. We need to trade for our Hammil.

[loges 6,132]

Tall defenders is the least of our problems. Frawley, Garland, Rivers, McDonald, Davis, Warnock ..... how many do we need? Ask Adelaide and Hawthorn how much they would be willing to pay for a backline that read like that!

I'm not worried about the tall forwards either.

Garland,Rivers & Warnock too often found out against sides with quality key forwards, Frawley is the only one we can absolutely count on. As for the tall forwards which ones would they be ?

[btdemon 475]

Many pundits would claim that good midfields not only win premierships but in fact they get you there in the first place. First use of the ball has always been important but is now crucial. Not only first use, but good, precise use. In the past few years, with zoning and the press, the concept of the midfield really extends to the half-backs and half forwards. Flankers have to cover nearly as much ground as the mids and with rotations these guys have to much more flexible. Some of these teams listed below have won "the big one" with fairly pedestrian key forwards. Port's 2004 and the Swans 2005 teams don't bristle with exquisite talent but they had very good team ethic and structure and were fed by excellent rucks. StKilda didn't win it, but they went so close and have been consistent top-line performers over recent times that I included them in my argument.

If you look at these key midfields they are mostly top quality with very effective ruck combinations.

2001-3 Voss, Black, Lappin, Aker, Pike, Power (Charman, Keating, Mcdonald)

2004 Cornes, Carr, Mahoney, Burgoyne, James (Brogan, Lade)

2005 Goodes, Kirk, Ablett, Buchanan, Dempster (Jolly, Ball)

2006 Judd, Cousins, Kerr, Braun, Fletcher (Cox)

2007, 2009 Ablett, Ling, Selwood, Bartel, Corey, Chapman (Ottens, King, Blake)

2008 Mitchell, Sewell, Crawford, Lewis, Bateman (Campbell, Renouf)

2010 Pendlebury, Swan, Thomas, Wellingham, Ball (Jolly, Brown)

StKilda 2009 Ball, Hayes, Montagna, Schneider, Dal Santo, Jones (King, Gardiner)

The recruiting team at Melbourne seem to have been attempting to build like this for the past couple of drafts. When we chose, Scully, Trengove, Gysberts, Tappscott, Gawn, Fitzpatrick in 2009 I could see that they were heading this way. Many people screamed that we should have chosen key talls like Butcher, Talia or Carlisle when they were available but I could see the thinking of the recruiters. If you have a surplus of high quality mids they can redeployed on flanks like Corey, Hodge and Chapman. This means that you win the ball where it really counts.

My biggest concern is that there is not quite enough size in our mids. Gysberts is tall and will no doubt put on some bulk but doesn't appear to have the frame to make him a Corey or Pendlebury. Let's hope for the best. Tappy will probably end up in there when he has the engine. The biggest worry about Scully (apart from him going to GWS), is his knee. I am confident that he has the combination of qualities to make a fine topline mid providing we keep him and he can overcome the knee problem, but seeing the plight of Cooney causes me to doubt it. Maybe Grimes has many of the right qualities, except quick, precise disposal. However, one of the things good mids need is resilience and resistance to injury. The punishment is relentless.

Yes, a big bodied forward woud be handy, and no one would be surprised if we went after one but we potentially have have the tall defenders, with the addition of Davis and McDonald, already.

If a powerful, quality mid is available, we should always go for them.

Edited August 28, 2011 by btdemon

[loges 6,132]

Can anyone who watched Geelong demolish Hawthorn last night not acknowledge how much difference a big forward would make to our side

[Captain Jack Jordan 32]

So your basically saying Juice Newton isn't the one?

[loges 6,132]

So your basically saying Juice Newton isn't the one?

Of couse someone with ability would be handy

[btdemon 475]

Can anyone who watched Geelong demolish Hawthorn last night not acknowledge how much difference a big forward would make to our side

Yes that is true, we need a big guy up front but, the reason that Hawthorn was able to match it with, and even beat Geelong in the first quater, was that they had a midfield that was tough, strong and skilful, with a good ruckman giving them first use. Hawthorn were totally "Buddy centric" and predictable also, and maybe this cost them. In the grand final it is not usually the big forwards that dominate, but midfields and people like Stevie J, Cyril etc up forward. Like I said in my earlier post, its the strong midfield that will get us there.

Edited September 10, 2011 by btdemon

[Bimbo 911]

The defence has, with the addition this year of Blease and T McDonald (and perhaps Tapscott although he may not remain there), a very solid base. What they need is the return of Sean Wellman or similar quality backline coach.

The forwards are extremely immature but growing physically and mentally. Next year there will be a bigger Watts together with the potential of Cook and resting big men. A new and better forward coach might also assist.

What though is really needed is a highly competitive midfield to take the pressure off the defence and provide better and more opportunities for the forward line. Notwithstanding useful rucks and a young and improving group of smaller players, it is in this area that Melbourne has been smashed by the better teams in the competition. Until they are able to compete with the competitions best, they will continue to be beaten by harder bodied, harder running and better drilled midfield players. Perhaps Brett Ratten, who had the midfield purring while at Melbourne, may become available tomorrow and resume this position under a new senior coach.

[btdemon 475]

The defence has, with the addition this year of Blease and T McDonald (and perhaps Tapscott although he may not remain there), a very solid base. What they need is the return of Sean Wellman or similar quality backline coach.

The forwards are extremely immature but growing physically and mentally. Next year there will be a bigger Watts together with the potential of Cook and resting big men. A new and better forward coach might also assist.

What though is really needed is a highly competitive midfield to take the pressure off the defence and provide better and more opportunities for the forward line. Notwithstanding useful rucks and a young and improving group of smaller players, it is in this area that Melbourne has been smashed by the better teams in the competition. Until they are able to compete with the competitions best, they will continue to be beaten by harder bodied, harder running and better drilled midfield players. Perhaps Brett Ratten, who had the midfield purring while at Melbourne, may become available tomorrow and resume this position under a new senior coach.

+1

[The O 39]

Yes that is true, we need a big guy up front but, the reason that Hawthorn was able to match it with, and even beat Geelong in the first quater, was that they had a midfield that was tough, strong and skilful, with a good ruckman giving them first use. Hawthorn were totally "Buddy centric" and predictable also, and maybe this cost them. In the grand final it is not usually the big forwards that dominate, but midfields and people like Stevie J, Cyril etc up forward. Like I said in my earlier post, its the strong midfield that will get us there.

Agree 100% with the above.

The reason that Hawthorn were on top during the first quarter (and a large part of the 2nd) was the midfield. Specifically the clearances! Mitchell, Sewell, Hodge, etc had control. Brendan Sanderson summed up Geelong's gameplan and structure brilliantly at half time, win the clearances and 'bomb it' to about 30 out from goal. Geelong's win wasn't won off the boot of Podsiadly and Hawkins (although they both played well) it was the likes of Chapman, Ling, Bartel and Selwood who started to dominate the middle. Case in point was the last quater, Geelong had close to 20 inside 50's to 5.

Personally I think both Podsiadly and Hawkins are 2 of the biggest duds going around in the AFL. However when you get the amount of inside 50's and the delivery from an A grade midfield, your duds turn into decent players.

For my mind we need another couple of classy midfields in the draft, (at least 2 in the event Scully leaves). Whilst Moloney, Jones, Grimes, Gysberts, Trengove, McKenzie, and Sylvia are all capable of filling roles inside the square I still think we're still a couple short on depth. Particularly when you compare our list to the Pies, Cats and Hawks, and also to a lesser extend North and the Eagles. (Note that I have left Davey, Tapscott, Blease, Bail and Morton out, as to me they're more suited to playing off a 'winger/half back/half forward' although thats not to say that Bail and Tapscott can't develop and play more often 'in the guts').

In addition, I think we need a 'gun tagger' type. We've seen the likes of Dunn, Bartram and Jones used in shut down/tagger types, however I think we lack a key shutdown/tagger. Does anyone think a player on our list at present has the ability? - Is any of the following Bartram, Jones, McKenzie, Jetta or Dunn the person to do this job every week?

I believe a 'gun tagger' recruit (or possibly a current player) would allow the development of our young midfield to progress at a much more rapid pace. Personally, I think we made a mistake letting Jr McDonald go 1 year early. Case in point, you only need to see how quickly North and the Eagles young midfield has come on, with Priddis and Rawlings allowing other players to develop without as much attention.

If I was in charge of the MFC drafting criteria for the upcoming draft, I'd be looking at securing the best inside midfielder available and best 'tagger/shut down' type as the top priorities. Talk of another key forward is too premature. We haven't seen Dunn, Petterd or Bate have the years that we'd want or expect from them this year. Throw a couple of them forward with the likes of a much more developed Watts, Jurrah, and Howe, combined with a resting Jamar/Martin combination and I think we have a good necleus. Given another year of development and size into Gawn, Fitzpatrick and Cook (who are all capable of playing forward) and the future up forward looks an attractive prospect.

If we can get more ball delivery into the foward line, more inside 50's, we'll kick more goals and have more W's on the board at the end of the day.

Edited September 10, 2011 by The O