Been thrown in the deep end and doing a fantastic job considering. I think this has really shown what he is made of. May not be a serious ruckman going forward, but has shown that he has the right attitude, work ethic and adaptability to make it.

One of the few positives this year.

Well said.

Have a footy debate - don't be rude.

What do you base your facts on? Stats? They can be meaningless. 40 hitouts that miss a target? Not good enough.

Bombing it long? Not good enough. Not manning up? Not good enough.

Mate, footy is more than stats. If you can't see his improvement then you have been hanging out with the umpires too long.

....who then went to Collingwood and hardly played a game. Different era, hard to compare. I'm frustrated by Stef's lack of development. Look at Cox of West Coast - when he was drafted he could hardly bounce the ball and 3 or 4 years later he was the league's most dominant ruckman, culminating in a flag in '06. Someone coach the kid, or delist him. At the moment, he has no clue about AFL footy.

Thats right. His dad mucked him up. He was a good player who took the wrong advice.

I was alluding to the fact that Stef's development has stalled. Cox was recruited but everyone thought that the gods had gone crazy - the rest is history. Stef, too, is a superb athlete who isn't going to make it.

I think Stef has come in leaps and bounds(lierally) since being thrown into the deep end. And your spin on Cox is a wonderful piece of fantsy. Cox was highly sought after by WCE after his break out season at East Perth. Never the let the facts get in the way..

What do you base your facts on? Stats? They can be meaningless.

Not as false or as meaningless as the spin you have given jumbo. And you will probably miss the irony in your question too.

This month has been great for Martin to accelerate his ruckwork and he has done that. When Jamar comes back he can work on his forward displays.

If it gets even slightly better, he has got the second ruck position nailed.

I think this two lines are spot on.

Stef Martin gets is getting quite a few stats. I'm just not sure how effective he is. He doesn't seem to hurt the opposition at all. He needs to learn how to go forward & kick a goal.

Stef has had his issues and I didn't think he would survive past 2011 but you change your opinion as the facts change.

The sub rule means we must take in someone to help Jamar ruck who can also play another role - Stef is not there at the moment in the forward line but is solid in defence.

This month has been great for Martin to accelerate his ruckwork and he has done that. When Jamar comes back he can work on his forward displays.

If it gets even slightly better, he has got the second ruck position nailed.

Never underestimate ruck dominance - Jamar and Martin will give us that.

Agree 100% He has been one of the very few bright spots for this year.

IMO we need someone who can stand their ground and mark in the forward line.

All our forwards are lead up types.

If Stef can release Jamar to play that role for a part of every game we are way ahead.

And he has a red hot go every week, something missing in a few of his team mates.

Stef Martin gets is getting quite a few stats. I'm just not sure how effective he is. He doesn't seem to hurt the opposition at all. He needs to learn how to go forward & kick a goal.

Can we concentrate on the forwards kicking them first?

Can we concentrate on the forwards kicking them first?

We have been waiting 3 months so far for 1 reasonable result from them.

When do you think they will get the job done?

Forwards...we have forwards ??? Would love a dollar for every time I glance to our forward arc and see no one home..

Are we reaaly sure we've got forwards ?? lol

At the beginning of the season I thought Martin was holding on by a fragile thread to the MFC and a career in football. So his improvement this year has been most pleasing. No, he's not a world beater, but I see improvement in his game week to week and with his reputed high intelligence, I should imagine he would keep improving as the year progresses.

At Stephan's age we were all calling for Jamar to be sacked, which would probably have seen him back in Adelaide ripping it up for the Crows!

I think Stef has come in leaps and bounds(lierally) since being thrown into the deep end. And your spin on Cox is a wonderful piece of fantsy. Cox was highly sought after by WCE after his break out season at East Perth. Never the let the facts get in the way..

Not as false or as meaningless as the spin you have given jumbo. And you will probably miss the irony in your question too.

I think this two lines are spot on.

No falsities, fantasies or spin with my posts - just footy talk / debate. I don't go into any ad hominem attacks with any posters here. It's an opinion, an observation of what has been a bleak, injury - ravaged season thus far. Unfortunately, Stef Martin has had an opportunity to show his full mettle and (in my opinion) has failed.

It's an opinion, an observation of what has been a bleak, injury - ravaged season thus far. Unfortunately, Stef Martin has had an opportunity to show his full mettle and (in my opinion) has failed.

.....and the world is doomed....

No falsities, fantasies or spin with my posts - just footy talk / debate. I don't go into any ad hominem attacks with any posters here. It's an opinion, an observation of what has been a bleak, injury - ravaged season thus far. Unfortunately, Stef Martin has had an opportunity to show his full mettle and (in my opinion) has failed.

He has FAILED??????? This simply must be a joke!

Im not at all sure as what in its entirity , Stef brings to the table in terms of ability or skills. He obviously has some, but its potential is far from understood, neither by the club nor himself.

Hes being given opportunities and in his best way he's giving it a red hot crack. is he successful ? Jury probably still out, but then is it actually being asked for its judgement just yet ?

In steps, some small and some larger hes getting more accustomed to the role(s) asked of him and hes creating a contest.

I think hes coming on ok. and hardly the clogger some suggest.

I think Martin's competed well, but he needs a second string to his bow. That's preferably a forward role, given that tall defenders generally play most of the game on the park. With him playing so much in the ruck, we've not had a chance to see what he can do up forward. That's not his fault though, and I like his endeavour.

No falsities, fantasies or spin with my posts - just footy talk / debate. I don't go into any ad hominem attacks with any posters here. It's an opinion, an observation of what has been a bleak, injury - ravaged season thus far. Unfortunately, Stef Martin has had an opportunity to show his full mettle and (in my opinion) has failed.

Why don't you expand a bit. Is it that you worry pumping him up may make him lazy? Or is it that you want him to be more Physical? What exactly is it tyhat you see he's not doing?

I think Martin's competed well, but he needs a second string to his bow. That's preferably a forward role, given that tall defenders generally play most of the game on the park. With him playing so much in the ruck, we've not had a chance to see what he can do up forward. That's not his fault though, and I like his endeavour.

Probably as a result of such littel usable rucking stocks to go to the well for.

Maybe if Gawn comes in this week we can have a look at Stef down front ?

At least in spurts..maybe

.....and the world is doomed....

Nope - we're talking footy, making observations without sarcasm.

Much prefer Stef in the backline than up forward, he looked good down there when he first debuted.

No bloody point putting any experimental forwards into this team when we can't even get it down there without bombing it to a five-on-one every time...

Much prefer Stef in the backline than up forward, he looked good down there when he first debuted.

No bloody point putting any experimental forwards into this team when we can't even get it down there without bombing it to a five-on-one every time...

You dont tend to stuff around with the defence during a game. You have men take to task and possibly change matchups if not working but these days you dont rest anyone down back.

If Steph is taking the lions share of rucking ( ftm) then he would rest up forward.. or on the bench. He could do this only if another ruck took over. Possibly this is where Gawn comes in.

Maybe start Gawn in the middle. Put Martin in the square and line up Howe next to him.

I think he is more effective at this age than what Jamar was at the same age.

You dont tend to stuff around with the defence during a game. You have men take to task and possibly change matchups if not working but these days you dont rest anyone down back.

If Steph is taking the lions share of rucking ( ftm) then he would rest up forward.. or on the bench. He could do this only if another ruck took over. Possibly this is where Gawn comes in.

Maybe start Gawn in the middle. Put Martin in the square and line up Howe next to him.

Martin has played time and time again as a forward. He can provide a bit at CHF, but you want a true CHF not a ruckman playing that position. And deep forward he hasn't been up to it, if he has he can't kick accurately at goal anyway.

Why can't you rest him down back. Rivers, Frawley and Garland all need a rest during the game even if they are small rests. So put Martin down back when the opposition ruck is resting forward.

This is only an issue when he is second ruck anyway. But this week has a logical solution. Use Martin in the ruck for half the game and both back and forward. Use Gawn in the ruck for the other half of the game and rest him forward. Play Tom McDonald primarily down back but Martin can swap with him if he's struggling and he can then go forward with the simple aim of making a contest.

You only "need" a back-up ruckman who can drift forward because it's generally accepted that most ruckman make atrocious one-on-one defenders. Not so with Stefan Martin. In a world where every backup ruckman rests forward, one who can rest back and not just pick up cheap possessions while doing so is pretty handy.

Why don't you expand a bit. Is it that you worry pumping him up may make him lazy? Or is it that you want him to be more Physical? What exactly is it tyhat you see he's not doing?

Fair enough. As per previous discussions, the guy has an amazing leap, presence and pace. He is lacking in the footy 'smarts'. Whether he won't listen, the coaches can't coach him, or he refuses to listen to instructions, his progress has been lacklustre. I want him to become more intimidating and block more to protect his on-ballers. Learn to handball to a better user of the ball who is running next to him and run hard to get back in defence to fill a zone. At the moment, he's getting cheap games through necessity, rather than progression.

Fair enough. As per previous discussions, the guy has an amazing leap, presence and pace. He is lacking in the footy 'smarts'. Whether he won't listen, the coaches can't coach him, or he refuses to listen to instructions, his progress has been lacklustre. I want him to become more intimidating and block more to protect his on-ballers. Learn to handball to a better user of the ball who is running next to him and run hard to get back in defence to fill a zone. At the moment, he's getting cheap games through necessity, rather than progression.

What? Kneeing Kosi in the back of the head isn't intimidating enough for you? I've seen him bolt out of the backline and start a chain of handballs after picking up his own ball quite a few times. Also, it's hard to block for your rovers when you're the one actually taking the ball out of the centre after getting 40 hit-outs per game. I don't think there's anything "cheap" about the games he's been playing. A guy who's not a #1 ruckman being asked to ruck for 90% of the game is definitely earning his pay, and Stefan Martin is progressing every week.