Jimmy puts the acid on ...

[Bonkers 994]

The acknowledgement of poor performance is rightly done by the Club President. And he said the obvious from his position A media driven contrived setting like a press conference is not the venue to "call a spade a spade FFS".

I dont think anyone is defelcting criticism at all. If you going to make statements were out played or poor performance, then the last venue for that should be the Press conference. And do you honestly think the Press would say "OK, you were outplayed and performance was poor lets then move along shall we". The media would make a meal of a coach for that. Its just that criticism should be dealt out privately and not in the hands of the media.

Even the greatest managers/coaches in world sport can admit to their team performance being at a sub-par level. That doesn't have to mean that the media will have a field day. By making a statement that the performance was poor it puts the onus back on the players to lift their game. I don't see anything wrong with that. The media will say what they want to say & write what they want to write regardless of what Dean Bailey says in a press conference. To me it just looks poor to not acknowledge when your team plays ordinary, it's almost putting your head in the sand. Part of being a senior coach is to manage your players & combine that with the way your team is being perceived outside the club walls. To me it doesn't look great to just praise a team that has just given your side an absolute flogging when your own team contributed heavily to the end result.

[Hannabal 4]

Rhino and Snoopy have both posted excellent views and analysis over the last day or so and much of what they say succinctly explains why our expectations should be tempered. Their statistical facts are compelling. But I don't lose sight of the fact that footy isn't played on a whiteboard with a calculator in hand.

I'm sick of aplogising for soft and lazy performances from senior players. I'm sick of watching players that don't like getting their hands dirty. I'm sick of a coach that incessantly talks of "winning more quarters". I'm sick of the fact that we have more inside 50's against us than any other team and have less forward 50 entries than any other team. I'm sick of a coach that has no strategy that is capable of stopping momentum. I'm sick of a team that loses its structure so badly in the face of a 'run on' that the tactics employed help keep the ball in the opposition's forward 50.

I appreciate that games of footy are won in the midfield, always have been and always will, and that we have no midfield stars, but I don't appreciate players that have no appetite for the contest. The reality is that our team looks like one of the worst drilled teams in the AFL. It's one thing to focus more on player development than gameday strategy, as per Todd Viney's recent article, because we're mindful of our youthful list, but what sort of player development is gained from humiliating team performances ? With the advent of zones, presses, run and spread, and the guarding of space it seems to have escaped Bailey that the best teams still value 'man on man' footy. The defensive aspect of our play is pitiful.

The reality is that until Scully, Trengove, McKenzie, and Gysbert have 60-80 games under their belt we're going to have days where we really struggle against the better teams. No ground breaking news there. But there's struggling and there's being inept/uncompetitive. I can accept the former, but not the latter.

It's Bailey's 4th year and there's still no irrefutable evidence that he can counter the opposition's gameplan. Gerard Healy raised valid concerns about Bailey's coaching in a recent article.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The thing we all need to realise is that factors beyond all of our control are likely to inundate us, if such performances are meekly tolerated.. As any good business should, we need to plan for that contingency and be pre-emptive, rather than let us be overwhelmed by the media pack. These things have a habit of being self fulfilling prophecies. Ignore it at your peril.

The next 2 weeks will tell.

Can you identify who in the Club is tolerating these performances meekly? And how does the handling of the loss by the MFC including the Presidents aptly delivered words represent any such acceptance.

The unacceptable performance will result in significant dirty laundry which should be handled in house and not dissected in the media. Poor performances reflect on the Chairman down through the FD and the players

As for the coach, he is already on notice given MFC have stated that they will not review the situation until season's end. He has the blowtorch on him from Rd 1. There are a number of players who must be feeling the heat behind closed doors (Many of them senior)

I would have thought the Club in coming to that decision and announcement is cleealy preparing for contingencies where ever possible.

So given what has been said over the past 12 months by the Club who do you think is ignoring the issues at MFC?

[agent_orange 0]

Even the greatest managers/coaches in world sport can admit to their team performance being at a sub-par level. That doesn't have to mean that the media will have a field day. By making a statement that the performance was poor it puts the onus back on the players to lift their game. I don't see anything wrong with that. The media will say what they want to say & write what they want to write regardless of what Dean Bailey says in a press conference. To me it just looks poor to not acknowledge when your team plays ordinary, it's almost putting your head in the sand. Part of being a senior coach is to manage your players & combine that with the way your team is being perceived outside the club walls. To me it doesn't look great to just praise a team that has just given your side an absolute flogging when your own team contributed heavily to the end result.

The warning signs were there in pre-season- our football department is well behind the rest of the league in the basics. Just not good enough. Lack of awareness about the game or structure. Makes you wonder what the review Cameron Schwab ordered uncovered.

[wmth 69]

Just what the club needs a public bake played out in the media? Of course!! How unprofessional of the Club not to resort to pasting groups and individuals in the media!!!

Jimmy sent the right message in the appropriate mannner. Something had to be said. And it is appropriate coming from the President and not from the Coach.

Unprofessional would be naming names, exhibit A: Brent Harvey. An appropriate repsonse would be a bit more than what we got, which was "I didn't see that coming"..."but the Hawks are top four"..."I thought we didn't get thrashed anymore"

I don't think it's unreasonable or unprofessional to expect some sort of public acknolwedgement from the coach about an incipid performance. Rodney Eade did it last week. The coach runs the playing group and they weren't good enough.

No doubt it's happening internally, but as a supporter I want it from the coach. NOt saying Jimmy wasn't out of place at all, just want something from Bailey for once

[hardtack 10,540]

The next 2 weeks will tell.

The next two weeks should be treated by the club and players as opportunities to stamp their authority and build their confidence with big wins... it doesn't matter that they would be against the likely cellar dwellers; confidence and momentum are major driving forces in this game.

[13thflag 0]

Needed to be said, why did they look like a rabble after coming back on the ground in the second half. It is a worry that only the second round of the season they looked stuffed. And how the hell are they going to fix this problem? what have they been doing that is so wrong? i am sorry but i feel we have gone back wards and that maybe it's time for Dean to go!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Even the greatest managers/coaches in world sport can admit to their team performance being at a sub-par level. That doesn't have to mean that the media will have a field day. By making a statement that the performance was poor it puts the onus back on the players to lift their game. I don't see anything wrong with that. The media will say what they want to say & write what they want to write regardless of what Dean Bailey says in a press conference. To me it just looks poor to not acknowledge when your team plays ordinary, it's almost putting your head in the sand. Part of being a senior coach is to manage your players & combine that with the way your team is being perceived outside the club walls. To me it doesn't look great to just praise a team that has just given your side an absolute flogging when your own team contributed heavily to the end result.

Why cant the Coach tell the players (in no uncertain terms) behind closed doors that the performance is poor and that puts the onus on the players? Are the players going to say until I read it in the Press "it aint so"? Why give the Media any extra ammunition?

The best way a coach can influence the perception of your side is on the field. Not through soapy admissions at Press conference.

If coach has to resort to baking his players individually or in groups through the media...then it is indeed time to get a new coach.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Why cant the Coach tell the players (in no uncertain terms) behind closed doors that the performance is poor and that puts the onus on the players? Are the players going to say until I read it in the Press "it aint so"? Why give the Media any extra ammunition?

The best way a coach can influence the perception of your side is on the field. Not through soapy admissions at Press conference.

If coach has to resort to baking his players individually or in groups through the media...then it is indeed time to get a new coach.

He doesn't have to bake players through the media. No-one is saying that. Simply, the club, including the coach, needs to be seen to be making a positive, assertive and emphatic stand, in the eyes of the public and the many MFC supporters who don't venture on here.

No wonder MFC supporters are seen by so many others as having a perennial heat muscle strain. As Peter Finch once said, we're as mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The next 2 weeks will tell.

If we drop either game then the wolves will be out internally before the Press get to the post match conference.

No doubt it's happening internally, but as a supporter I want it from the coach. NOt saying Jimmy wasn't out of place at all, just want something from Bailey for once

Jimmy's presser was issued partly to give you some of the salve you require. Good luck.

I appreciate that games of footy are won in the midfield, always have been and always will, and that we have no midfield stars, but I don't appreciate players that have no appetite for the contest. The reality is that our team looks like one of the worst drilled teams in the AFL. It's one thing to focus more on player development than gameday strategy, as per Todd Viney's recent article, because we're mindful of our youthful list, but what sort of player development is gained from humiliating team performances ? With the advent of zones, presses, run and spread, and the guarding of space it seems to have escaped Bailey that the best teams still value 'man on man' footy. The defensive aspect of our play is pitiful.

The reality is that until Scully, Trengove, McKenzie, and Gysbert have 60-80 games under their belt we're going to have days where we really struggle against the better teams. No ground breaking news there. But there's struggling and there's being inept/uncompetitive. I can accept the former, but not the latter.

It's Bailey's 4th year and there's still no irrefutable evidence that he can counter the opposition's gameplan. Gerard Healy raised valid concerns about Bailey's coaching in a recent article.

Well thought and written. Like many I share your frustration

[old dee 23,792]

Bailey's dead pan attitude is really bugging me now. Show some passion man! Show some anger or discontent. No wonder the players cant get motivated to lay more tackles than the Gold Coast did with 12 debutants.

Paul Roos was spot on, we are the most concerning club in the competition with our lack of leadership and lack of game plan.

Watching some of those disgraceful efforts and turnovers in the back half again really highlighted how low we sunk on Sunday. The players literally gave up and stopped caring.

stranga I have been saying this for a year.

Where are the Malthouse stares?

I never have the feeling that loosing hurts him.

It may well but give us reason to believe it does.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Simply, the club, including the coach, needs to be seen to be making a positive, assertive and emphatic stand, in the eyes of the public and the many MFC supporters who don't venture on here.

And that's why Jimmy Stynes press release is good media management at this point in time.

The most positive, assertive and emphatic stand the Club can make is in the performances that come forth in the coming weeks. Not in the media controlled circus of a press conference.

And contrary to what you are saying a few posters do indeed expect the coach to criticise the players at the Press conference. You should follow the discussion more closely.

[old dee 23,792]

Rhino and Snoopy have both posted excellent views and analysis over the last day or so and much of what they say succinctly explains why our expectations should be tempered. Their statistical facts are compelling. But I don't lose sight of the fact that footy isn't played on a whiteboard with a calculator in hand.

I'm sick of aplogising for soft and lazy performances from senior players. I'm sick of watching players that don't like getting their hands dirty. I'm sick of a coach that incessantly talks of "winning more quarters". I'm sick of the fact that we have more inside 50's against us than any other team and have less forward 50 entries than any other team. I'm sick of a coach that has no strategy that is capable of stopping momentum. I'm sick of a team that loses its structure so badly in the face of a 'run on' that the tactics employed help keep the ball in the opposition's forward 50.

I appreciate that games of footy are won in the midfield, always have been and always will, and that we have no midfield stars, but I don't appreciate players that have no appetite for the contest. The reality is that our team looks like one of the worst drilled teams in the AFL. It's one thing to focus more on player development than gameday strategy, as per Todd Viney's recent article, because we're mindful of our youthful list, but what sort of player development is gained from humiliating team performances ? With the advent of zones, presses, run and spread, and the guarding of space it seems to have escaped Bailey that the best teams still value 'man on man' footy. The defensive aspect of our play is pitiful.

The reality is that until Scully, Trengove, McKenzie, and Gysbert have 60-80 games under their belt we're going to have days where we really struggle against the better teams. No ground breaking news there. But there's struggling and there's being inept/uncompetitive. I can accept the former, but not the latter.

It's Bailey's 4th year and there's still no irrefutable evidence that he can counter the opposition's gameplan. Gerard Healy raised valid concerns about Bailey's coaching in a recent article.

I agree with RR good effort Hannabal. You have covered it beautifully.

next two weeks are put up or shut up time.

Nothing but good wins is good enough.

[DemonDave 1,089]

I'm happy for personnel and structural criticisms to be kept within the confines of the club.

No need for them to be played out in the media, just look at the mess of trouble Brent Harvey has gotten himself into for laying the blame on a couple of his younger charges over the last 48 hours.

[Bonkers 994]

Why cant the Coach tell the players (in no uncertain terms) behind closed doors that the performance is poor and that puts the onus on the players? Are the players going to say until I read it in the Press "it aint so"? Why give the Media any extra ammunition?

The best way a coach can influence the perception of your side is on the field. Not through soapy admissions at Press conference.

If coach has to resort to baking his players individually or in groups through the media...then it is indeed time to get a new coach.

Part of motivating players is not just to have internal motivating factors but external motivating factors as well. This issue isn't just about the media, it's about being able to say to the players who pull on the jumper they have a responsibility to perform at a minimum standard. As a club that is what is expected. What good is it going to do for any of the players to be protected from reasonable outside expectation??? It's part of their jobs to deal with pressure.

At what stage through any of my posts have I stated that I would like Dean Bailey to bake our players publicly? If the media start to really get stuck into the players, then it is time for the coach to protect the players & handle everything internally. It should be a last resort.

[The Chazz 4,077]

What more do we want? Green has come out and said it was unacceptable, Stynes has done it, why does Bailey need to do it too? You know it was unacceptable, and I know it was unacceptable.

For the record, I didn't see a quarter like that 3rd one coming either, even after their ill-directed dominance throughout the first half. I sat back and kept thinking 2 things;

* We can't stop this!

* What team would be able to stop this?

It was one of the most dominating performances I have seen by any team ever! Our first quarter against Sydney last year was pretty special, the Swans had no answers, Goodes was the only leader that stood up for them in that quarter. I don't need to say it, but we aint got no Goodes!

Get over it people, we got flogged. Let's move on FFS.

[The Chazz 4,077]

stranga I have been saying this for a year.

Where are the Malthouse stares?I never have the feeling that loosing hurts him.It may well but give us reason to believe it does.

2 unqualified statements.

Firstly, I saw the stare that Bailey gave Watts (I think, may have been Jurrah), I can't remember the play (I'll try and watch the replay and get back to you), but I know I immediately thought to myself that the player was lazy. Within a second, they showed Bailey on the boundary and he was screaming to Jack (I'm sure it was Jack now because I could almost hear Bailey through the TV) to get back. The look on his face wasn't one that I would say loves losing.

Your second point is a joke. Just because Bailey doesn't show any passion in a presser means losing doesn't hurt. WTF?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Part of motivating players is not just to have internal motivating factors but external motivating factors as well. This issue isn't just about the media, it's about being able to say to the players who pull on the jumper they have a responsibility to perform at a minimum standard. As a club that is what is expected. What good is it going to do for any of the players to be protected from reasonable outside expectation??? It's part of their jobs to deal with pressure.

Dont you think that the players are advised this face to face and at training and at team meetings? How are they being protected from external expectations? They face it from the media (just read Sheahan), they face it from the supporters that confront them every time they step into the public. I dont think its appropriate for the coach at a post match presser to shame, criticise or belittle individual or team performance.

BTW, Brent Harvey's post match burst was absolutely slayed in the press in the following days as being ungracious, unprofessional and ill thought. His comments may have been apt. They were delivered in the wrong forum.

At what stage through any of my posts have I stated that I would like Dean Bailey to bake our players publicly? If the media start to really get stuck into the players, then it is time for the coach to protect the players & handle everything internally. It should be a last resort.

"Someone at the club needed to say it. There's no one better to say it than the man himself. All we'd heard from the FD was how great a side the Hawks are. "

I took that statement to infer that FD should have made critical comments about the performance.

BTW, I think thats why DB is so dead pan at pressers. He does not give any oxygen to a media pack that is ready to jump on any comment that is remotely critical and make a bonfire out of it. I am sure DB is not so reserved behind closed doors with the players.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

And that's why Jimmy Stynes press release is good media management at this point in time.

The most positive, assertive and emphatic stand the Club can make is in the performances that come forth in the coming weeks. Not in the media controlled circus of a press conference.

And contrary to what you are saying a few posters do indeed expect the coach to criticise the players at the Press conference. You should follow the discussion more closely.

Mate, you will put your own "spin" on this no matter what anyone says . Read posts in their context and stop quoting them selectively. Your character assassinations on this forum are deplorable and should be dealt with. Your "Rah Rah" reference to me was petty and unnecessary. You have a docket as long as my arm. RR, by no means do you have a mortgage on the truth. Quite the opposite in fact. Give others a go and stop being so bloody belligerent, even if people have a divergent opinion to yours. God forbid.

[Hannabal 4]

I'm happy for the coach to keep his composure, but I am pleased that Stynes said what he did. I don't think that the blowtorch from the back page of the city's leading paper can do any harm to the players or the coaching staff under the circumstances.

Let's see how they respond.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Mate, you will put your own "spin" on this no matter what anyone says . Read posts in their context and stop quoting them selectively. Your character assassinations on this forum are deplorable and should be dealt with. Your "Rah Rah" reference to me was petty and unnecessary. You have a docket as long as my arm. RR, by no means do you have a mortgage on the truth. Quite the opposite in fact. Give others a go and stop being so bloody belligerent, even if people have a divergent opinion to yours. God forbid.

I'm on RR's side Iva, so I do apologise if I assassinate one's character - never meant to happen. I get frustrated with some of the comments and expectations on here, just as those people get frustrated with the comments and expectations from our coach. Reality is, none of us know what is going on behind the scenes, and I, as a member of this great club, am glad we have a coach who doesn't come out ranting and raving. I think it shows a strong sense of professionalism, and am proud of my club for this. Malthouse is a [censored] at presser's, he gives the media (and us that watch them) absolutely nothing to feed off. Sheedy was exactly the same.

[old dee 23,792]

2 unqualified statements.

Firstly, I saw the stare that Bailey gave Watts (I think, may have been Jurrah), I can't remember the play (I'll try and watch the replay and get back to you), but I know I immediately thought to myself that the player was lazy. Within a second, they showed Bailey on the boundary and he was screaming to Jack (I'm sure it was Jack now because I could almost hear Bailey through the TV) to get back. The look on his face wasn't one that I would say loves losing.

Your second point is a joke. Just because Bailey doesn't show any passion in a presser means losing doesn't hurt. WTF?

Thanks for filling me in billy However I still think a few at press conferences would not go astray.

Watts and company better take heed mate because they are going to play DB right out of job with a few more games like Sunday.

WTF

[binman 42,987]

I'm sick of a coach that has no strategy that is capable of stopping momentum. I'm sick of a team that loses its structure so badly in the face of a 'run on' that the tactics employed help keep the ball in the opposition's forward 50........ It's Bailey's 4th year and there's still no irrefutable evidence that he can counter the opposition's gameplan.

I agree with these comments, spot on i reckon. Bailey's lack of a tactical response to the opposition having the momentum has been a theme in his tenure thus far, as has having no so called plan b, or simply an effective secondary model that works against sides that bottle it up well when our standard spread and run approach isn't working.

On Sunday the older players didn't step up in the 3rd quarter but Bailey has to take some responsibility as well. Where were his moves to counter their run on (eg as one poster noted what about Dunn into the centre to get some hardness there), where was his tactical response? Team development is all well and good but tactical nouse in this day and age is crucial.

I thought it was really intersting that Davey called for a slow down at 23rd min mark of the second, which may or amy not have been the right thing to do, but did not do so (& nor did any other senior player) in the 3rd when the game was being ripped away from us. Surely that was the time to stop the momentum, hold the ball, chip it around, rebalance. Green acknowledged exactly this point in his press conference on Monday. Now here's my point about this - Bailey was down on the ground during the 3rd so could communicate directly with the players. Why didn't he direct a player to go out and slow things up? Why didn't he take charge tacticaly. He's the senior coach after all and the buck stops with him

Also tacticaly it was a huge risk having Maric as the sub as he can only play up forward, when we needed some mid field grunt and run in the last q not a goal sneak. He should have statred on the ground with Jetta sub as at least Jetta can play in a variety of spots and generally tackles well (though not on Sunday)

Edited April 5, 2011 by binman

[old dee 23,792]

I'm on RR's side Iva, so I do apologise if I assassinate one's character - never meant to happen. I get frustrated with some of the comments and expectations on here, just as those people get frustrated with the comments and expectations from our coach. Reality is, none of us know what is going on behind the scenes, and I, as a member of this great club, am glad we have a coach who doesn't come out ranting and raving. I think it shows a strong sense of professionalism, and am proud of my club for this. Malthouse is a [censored] at presser's, he gives the media (and us that watch them) absolutely nothing to feed off. Sheedy was exactly the same.

Now here is a statt for you billy, Both have won multiple Premierships while we have won ZERO.

I would trade that for "a strong sense of professionalism" any day of the last 40+ years.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Thanks for filling me in billy However I still think a few at press conferences would not go astray.

Watts and company better take heed mate because they are going to play DB right out of job with a few more games like Sunday.

WTF

Interesting way of putting it, but I think Stynes, etc know that while Bailey may have been outcoached, the issues were more onfield. If the Pres is of this opinion, the coach is a safe as houses (for the moment). We have shown that we can be ruthless with list changes, noone of the players are safe if they perform like that on a regular basis.