MFC Training (Monday)

[e25 5]

Clint isn't a great kick, but he beats the hell out of Stef Martin, Jack Fitzpatrick, Jake Spencer and even the big Russian may struggle to get past him.

Attention to detail AoB.

I didn't say he was the worst kick.

I said he's the worst user of the footy.

The guys you named usually have the sense to kick it long or handball to a teammate who can use it.

Clint tries to do more than he is capable of, chooses the wrong option and runs himself into trouble.

A liability with the footy in his hands, moreso than anyone else on our list.

Edited November 17, 2010 by E25

[Axis of Bob 11,840]

So you would prefer to have the ball in Stef Martin's, Jake Spencer's or Jack Fitzpatrick's hands than Bartram's?

Sounds like hyperbole to me.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The Dogs is a bad example for obvious reasons and why can't he be in our best 22 when vying for a flag ? He is the best backpocket at Melbourne ATM. The guy has lifted his game every year so whats to say he won't do it again and again. The guys played 80 games and is 22 y/o there is a large scope for improvement.

He needs to continue to improve to survive in the role. While he might be the best option its only atm. And just because he is 22 and has 80 games there is no basis to suggest there is large scope for improvement. FWIW, I was really impressed with Bartrams efforts last year. But his strengths dont hide areas he is not strong in. The truth is he has to work very hard to maintain the momentum he achieved in 2010.

You're actually blaming his decision making for thinking an umpire was one of your players on a night which was pouring rain, and there was a distinct clash between our pink jumpers and the stupid pink umpires?

Its a poor example to use but there is an issue with Bartram's decision making and execution at times.

I would like to see Bartram back in our midfield as the defensive tagger, IMO he is the best on our list to fill this role. The issue we have is Bartram is also our best small defender and we need him to play in the Back Pocket on dangerous small forwards. It's funny most, me included had Bartram gone in 2010 now he is very much an important player.

If you are going to play midfield then you must be able to play offensively and defensively. I dont think there is a role for a purely defensive tagger in the game unless they can win and use the ball well. And who out of the list of the more talented options that we have in the midfield misses out on a spot?? And in regard to your issue, it why I put forward Bail as a potentially better option longer term.

[drdrake 3,185]

[if you are going to play midfield then you must be able to play offensively and defensively. I dont think there is a role for a purely defensive tagger in the game unless they can win and use the ball well. And who out of the list of the more talented options that we have in the midfield misses out on a spot?? And in regard to your issue, it why I put forward Bail as a potentially better option longer term.

[beelzebub 23,382]

Barty would , unfortunately , be high on the list of vulnerables for his position. In reality he only has half him game down pat and has shown over time his decisions are somewhat iffy. ( reminds me of someone else lol )

He does try and parts of his game have lifted but I can see that in all likelihood by seasons end he won't be in the best 22 and that will be his demise . You don't often learn footy smarts. You either have them or you don't. The AFL game exposes his flaws.

[satyricon 267]

It's wonderful....it is November the players have been back a week or so and are getting back into the swing of things....and the knives are out....who will have a rotten season....and will be a liability to the teqam.....which is still a few months away....can't wait for the thread about to appear with who will be delisted next October....double sigh......

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I would of thought there are still a few midfielders in the game that you need just a complete shut down role, Judd, Ablett and in round 22 last year Bartram should of gone to Harvey.

Players like Judd and Ablett take you to the ball and always put themselves in the best positions. Players who "tag" such players need to be able to fight for and win the contest football and use it well in traffic. The days of sitting on elite midfield players all game to quiet them have evolved.

Bartram might have run with Harvey but would have scorched MFC in the midfield with disposal. Bartram would have been on another fast player down back so who takes that player? Harvey did show up Jones's lack of speed.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

It's wonderful....it is November the players have been back a week or so and are getting back into the swing of things....and the knives are out....who will have a rotten season....and will be a liability to the teqam.....which is still a few months away....can't wait for the thread about to appear with who will be delisted next October....double sigh......

Maybe you will read that thread better than you have done here. None of those comments have been made here and certainly no knives.

I guess you maybe the type that could be ruffled by comments that might vere from "he's pumped for the season", "its his first pre season in x years" and "he/they is/are training the house down".

[satyricon 267]

Maybe you will read that thread better than you have done here. None of those comments have been made here and certainly no knives.

I guess you maybe the type that could be ruffled by comments that might vere from "he's pumped for the season", "its his first pre season in x years" and "he/they is/are training the house down".

Maybe this is only one of those blunt plastic type knives that you take on a picnic

Barty would , unfortunately , be high on the list of vulnerables for his position. In reality he only has half him game down pat and has shown over time his decisions are somewhat iffy. ( reminds me of someone else lol )

He does try and parts of his game have lifted but I can see that in all likelihood by seasons end he won't be in the best 22 and that will be his demise . You don't often learn footy smarts. You either have them or you don't. The AFL game exposes his flaws.

[H_T 3,049]

Maybe this is only one of those blunt plastic type knives that you take on a picnic

Barty would , unfortunately , be high on the list of vulnerables for his position. In reality he only has half him game down pat and has shown over time his decisions are somewhat iffy. ( reminds me of someone else lol )

He does try and parts of his game have lifted but I can see that in all likelihood by seasons end he won't be in the best 22 and that will be his demise . You don't often learn footy smarts. You either have them or you don't. The AFL game exposes his flaws.

This was BB59's post RR (previous page, last post).

Fwiw, it's hardly knives out with this post satyricon. Very blunt. Miniscule in fact. Nevertheless an opinion on a durable 'blue collar' player.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Fwiw, it's hardly knives out with this post satyricon. Very blunt. Miniscule in fact.

More like a soft pat with a Kleenex table napkin. B)

[Guest DeesPower]

You're actually blaming his decision making for thinking an umpire was one of your players on a night which was pouring rain, and there was a distinct clash between our pink jumpers and the stupid pink umpires?

No i'm not. The misdirected handpass in the middle of the ground due to similar umpire and MFC uniforms was earlier in the game. I'm talking about in the dying minutes in front of the Dog's goal when he should have let the ball go toward the boundary line but instead put it back into play which resulted directly in the Lake goal which put them within three points (if you don't believe me i suggest you look at the replay - as a foxtel IQ customer i have recently purchased a t-box from Telstra and as it is internet television you can replay any AFL game amongst other things for $6 a month on a wide screen at widescreen quality - fantastic value). Another example was in the last quarter in the game against the Lions at the Gabba - a tight game and had it not been for a brilliant late goal beyond the 50m arc in the dying minute of the game from Dunn, the mistake from Bartrum earlier in the quarter could well have cost us the game.

My point is not that Bartrum is not a good player. It is that if we want to win a premiership we cannot afford these slip ups and we have an outstanding list of young talent which means in two or three years time when we will be a contender we cannot afford to have only ok players - all of them need to be outstanding, and although Bartrum is ok for us now, he will not make our premiership 22 because of his fatal flaws.

Those who don't agree, try making a top 22 players list of our CURRENT list for two years time (let alone our early draft picks in the next three years and Jack Viney as father-son). I'd be staggered if anyone included Bartrum in that list, but im interested in considering any suggestions.

Edited November 17, 2010 by High Tower
quote tag

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

My point is not that Bartrum is not a good player. It is that if we want to win a premiership we cannot afford these slip ups and we have an outstanding list of young talent which means in two or three years time when we will be a contender we cannot afford to have only ok players - all of them need to be outstanding, and although Bartrum is ok for us now, he will not make our premiership 22 because of his fatal flaws.

Those who don't agree, try making a top 22 players list of our CURRENT list for two years time (let alone our early draft picks in the next three years and Jack Viney as father-son). I'd be staggered if anyone included Bartrum in that list, but im interested in considering any suggestions.

I dont think anyone will have Bartrum on their list. They may have Bartram though.

There have been many worse players that have an AFL medallion around the neck than your comment on Bartram.

Atm he is very much a candidate for the small defender role unless we develop better options (either Bail or draft/trade) or Bartram does improve on his 2010 vintage.

[e25 5]

So you would prefer to have the ball in Stef Martin's, Jake Spencer's or Jack Fitzpatrick's hands than Bartram's?

Sounds like hyperbole to me.

I would.

They generally know what to do with it - hand it off to a teammate who is a good decision maker.

Alternatively they kick it long. They know to take the safe option.

Bartram sometimes doesn't always play within his limits and sometimes tries to do things the other smalls do... and fails miserably.

Every now & then it comes off, but more often than not it should have been a better outcome.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

They generally know what to do with it - hand it off to a teammate who is a good decision maker.

Alternatively they kick it long. They know to take the safe option.

Bartram sometimes doesn't always play within his limits and sometimes tries to do things the other smalls do... and fails miserably.

Every now & then it comes off, but more often than not it should have been a better outcome.

Bob's right about the hyperbole.

[old55 23,687]

What's Bartram's disposal efficiency? That's the % of time he plays to his limitations. I reckon it's most of the time and his % is likely to be quite high - short kick to unmarked defender or handball to running defender. When he tries to exceed or is forced out of his limitations he does make errors and his kicking limitation bar is quite low. I think he's a pretty smart footballer overall who generally makes good decisions, has good pace and endurance. The problems are he can't attack with his kicking and he can be pressured into a turnover.

[Steamin Demon 392]

I would.

They generally know what to do with it - hand it off to a teammate who is a good decision maker.

Alternatively they kick it long. They know to take the safe option.

Bartram sometimes doesn't always play within his limits and sometimes tries to do things the other smalls do... and fails miserably.

Every now & then it comes off, but more often than not it should have been a better outcome.

You would rather see the ball in Jake 'drop the ball while running into goal' Spencer and Stef 'I can't give to someone else quick enough' Martin and Fitzy hasn't played yet. I'll take Bartram anyday, You wouldn't be arguing for the sake of it would you E25 ?

FWIW Bartrams disposal is as good as anyones in our backline.

[reynolds46 1,266]

Amazing how a positive thread about training has turned into Bartram Bashing, is Bartram to replace to replace Bruce in this capacity?

[old55 23,687]

I know it's a long time ago, but I look back to when we had Alan Johnson in this role - he was an A grade mid who won a best and fairest in the midfield and went to play as small defensive back and won another B&F. He played on Peter Daicos at his most dangerous, probably the toughest assignment ever, and when the ball got in his hands you were always supremely confident he'd use it well.

It's an under-rated role that warrants an A grader if your midfield rotation can support the loss.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

When he tries to exceed or is forced out of his limitations he does make errors and his kicking limitation bar is quite low. I think he's a pretty smart footballer overall who generally makes good decisions, has good pace and endurance. The problems are he can't attack with his kicking and he can be pressured into a turnover.

I know it's a long time ago, but I look back to when we had Alan Johnson in this role - he was an A grade mid who won a best and fairest in the midfield and went to play as small defensive back and won another B&F. He played on Peter Daicos at his most dangerous, probably the toughest assignment ever, and when the ball got in his hands you were always supremely confident he'd use it well.

It's an under-rated role that warrants an A grader if your midfield rotation can support the loss.

Agree with all that Old. Its why I think that Bail could be a LT option there.

[Axis of Bob 11,840]

Just going from my quick stats (from afl.com.au), a few of the players noted for slightly iffy disposal:

Clint Bartram

289 disposals @ 77% disposal efficiency.

11.1 disposals per clanger.

Ricky Petterd

77 disposals @ 66% disposal efficiency.

8.6 disposals per clanger.

Mark Jamar

273 disposals @ 77% disposal efficiency.

4.5 disposals per clanger.

Jones

425 disposals @ 73% disposal efficiency.

9.0 disposals per clanger.

Gysberts

63 disposals @ 63% disposal efficiency.

21.0 disposals per clanger.

Martin

18 disposals @ 67% disposal efficiency.

3.0 disposals per clanger.

Spencer

10 disposals @ 90% disposal efficiency.

2.5 disposals per clanger.

Grimes

425 disposals @ 73% disposal efficiency.

9.0 disposals per clanger.

Interesting numbers.

[Axis of Bob 11,840]

Rhino, I'm still not 100% convinced about Bail's disposal but he definitely is a good enough runner.

I'd be happy to have an A grade mid down back because it's such an important role. Possibly moreso now. Just look at how Geelong used to set up down back with Enright (among others). I don't think Bartram is the long term answer and I'd be prepared to draft for that role at 12. More than prepared.

[titan_uranus 25,042]

Disposal efficiency/inefficiency tells you virtually nothing.

A disposal can be efficient despite it selling a team-mate down the river. For example, Bruce streams out of defence, then stops, handpasses to someone flatfooted, who is tackled and possession is lost. That handpass was still 'efficient'

It also says nothing about the decision that was made. Was it the right call or not?

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

Just going from my quick stats (from afl.com.au), a few of the players noted for slightly iffy disposal:

Clint Bartram

289 disposals @ 77% disposal efficiency.

11.1 disposals per clanger.

Ricky Petterd

77 disposals @ 66% disposal efficiency.

8.6 disposals per clanger.

Mark Jamar

273 disposals @ 77% disposal efficiency.

4.5 disposals per clanger.

Jones

425 disposals @ 73% disposal efficiency.

9.0 disposals per clanger.

Gysberts

63 disposals @ 63% disposal efficiency.

21.0 disposals per clanger.

Martin

18 disposals @ 67% disposal efficiency.

3.0 disposals per clanger.

Spencer

10 disposals @ 90% disposal efficiency.

2.5 disposals per clanger.

Grimes

425 disposals @ 73% disposal efficiency.

9.0 disposals per clanger.

Interesting numbers.

yeh i did one with bartrams numbers and then they were also comparable to tom scully, jack trengove, and cameron bruce

[satyricon 267]

Rhino, I'm still not 100% convinced about Bail's disposal but he definitely is a good enough runner.

I'd be happy to have an A grade mid down back because it's such an important role. Possibly moreso now. Just look at how Geelong used to set up down back with Enright (among others). I don't think Bartram is the long term answer and I'd be prepared to draft for that role at 12. More than prepared.

Oh great, I was thinking sanity had prevail...........let's throw an physically underdeveloped teenager on some of the competitions most dangerous small fowards.....triple sigh......cam we at least wait until after the final siren of the first game of the season to at least make some judgements........