The "T" Word

[Guest JACKtheRIPPER]

im not one for starting threads, so for any of you die hards out there, go to the afl website and have a read about what paul roos just said about the demons,FIRST IN BEST DRESSED.

[Hannabal 4]

I will put this in simple english ....again, were you going to the geelong[asked before the game] and another question DID you go to the game?

As I said, I did, silly, dumb, soft, selfish me. Did I leave out any adjectives out just fill in what you want.

Love and kisses to you to.

I worked, so couldn't attend, but it's quite a nice drive and day down at the Cattery. I haven't been their since the drawn game in 06.

I think we've established that you're not a soft supporter. Just a stupid one.

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

im not one for starting threads, so for any of you die hards out there, go to the afl website and have a read about what paul roos just said about the demons,FIRST IN BEST DRESSED.

good words from Paul Roos, he is no fool. The swans want to keep winning this year, good let them-won't do them any good so i don't care.

We need the High Draft Picks to Bolster our midfield. So i will be happy if the Swannettes take the 4 points.

They have a list of pensioners who are on there last hurrah. We are about to start the long climb next year.

r

[heartbeatstrue 57]

I think we've established that you're not a soft supporter. Just a stupid one.

Hey, not necessary. 52k2, I see we're both members of the Alan Johnson fan club. exciting player, AJ.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

I wouldn't respect you any less if you stuck to your guns.

It has nothing to do with respect. It's about not fighting with my club. I can't say that I'm happy about but it seems silly to fight a losing battle especially when we all have the best interests of the MFC at heart but different ideas on how to do it.

[Axis of Bob 11,804]

'Unfathomable'.

Hannabal, it should not unfathomable.

People are motivated by different things. An anti-tanker's motivations may be moral, intellectual or simply because he feels compromised barracking for a loss. Maybe they would feel worse for supporting a player who they feel was 'ill-gotten'. Maybe they would feel betrayed by a team that did not try to win, which would reduce their enjoyment from watching footy in the future. Or perhaps they don't care about next week, or the week after, or the next year - they simply want to turn up on a Saturday afternoon to watch their favourite team and watch them win every week. Each win is an isolated event.

Just because it's not your opinion (it isn't my opinion) doesn't make it unfathomable to me. I can understand their opinion and why you could have that opinion. I just have a different opinion.

If it's unfathomable to you then it's because you are closed minded and it's not their problem - it's yours.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Axis of Bob

[rpfc 28,410]

It has nothing to do with respect. It's about not fighting with my club. I can't say that I'm happy about but it seems silly to fight a losing battle especially when we all have the best interests of the MFC at heart but different ideas on how to do it.

That's a great attitude, and you can continue arguing if you like there is nothing wrong with that.

To you, and a few others on this board who don't like us tanking (and we are tanking people - McLean hurt himself a week ago and Green a month ago. Dress it up and call it pretty things but it is what it is):

This is the best thing that the club can do in the circumstances it is in. We are bad enough to be 'rewarded' (this will be our 50th loss since 2007 on the weekend) and to not be 'rewarded' because of some forgettable win against Richmond is in no-one's best interest.

We're just doing what we have to do, to do the things we want to do.

[Nasher 33,616]

If it's unfathomable to you then it's because you are closed minded and it's not their problem - it's yours.

I agree; I don't see why it's so difficult to understand. I don't share that attitude, but I can sympathise with those who do. Everyone who is 'pro-tank' agrees that players should be as competitive as humanly possible and should not be built to want to lose, so why is it so unimaginable that some supporters would feel the same?

Personally, I want this season to be over. I don't want to be dreading an accidental win. I don't want to feel compromised in my support of the football team any more. I don't want to feel a sense of relief with every loss that we experience now. But I want the pain of the last three seasons to be worth it, and the lure of an elite player will make it worth it.

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

I agree; I don't see why it's so difficult to understand. I don't share that attitude, but I can sympathise with those who do. Everyone who is 'pro-tank' agrees that players should be as competitive as humanly possible and should not be built to want to lose, so why is it so unimaginable that some supporters would feel the same?

Personally, I want this season to be over. I don't want to be dreading an accidental win. I don't want to feel compromised in my support of the football team any more. I don't want to feel a sense of relief with every loss that we experience now. But I want the pain of the last three seasons to be worth it, and the lure of an elite player will make it worth it.

You Said it Nash. No Pain no gain. I will put up with the next 6 weeks to Gain a Gun(s) for next year & Beyond.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,790]

"But rather than watching Scully starring in the red and blue at the G for the next 12 years, some of you would rather the club keep winning, even to the detriment of its future. Unfathomable really."

I agree, Hannabal. To me it just seems like a myopic lack of understanding that supporters could hope for meaningless wins despite the catastrophic consequences. So perhaps it's not "unfathomable". It's just that they don't understand.

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

Tankers 100

Those who wish meaningless end of season wins 9

Just keep doing your stuff dean bailey. Roll on 2010.

Edited July 24, 2009 by why you little

[Hannabal 4]

'Unfathomable'.

Hannabal, it should not unfathomable.

People are motivated by different things. An anti-tanker's motivations may be moral, intellectual or simply because he feels compromised barracking for a loss. Maybe they would feel worse for supporting a player who they feel was 'ill-gotten'. Maybe they would feel betrayed by a team that did not try to win, which would reduce their enjoyment from watching footy in the future. Or perhaps they don't care about next week, or the week after, or the next year - they simply want to turn up on a Saturday afternoon to watch their favourite team and watch them win every week. Each win is an isolated event.

Just because it's not your opinion (it isn't my opinion) doesn't make it unfathomable to me. I can understand their opinion and why you could have that opinion. I just have a different opinion.

If it's unfathomable to you then it's because you are closed minded and it's not their problem - it's yours.

Spare me the C grade psychobabble, Bobby. The reasons why a supporter would want to see their team win are pretty obvious. Jumping Jimmy sums it up very well when he uses the word myopic. I could add that they have a very narrow focus, short sightedness, can't see the forest for the trees, and are even selfish. In other words, it's all about them. It's all about their instant gratification. It's about how it makes them feel. Which is fair enough, I suppose. A counter argument to mine could be "why support a team otherwise" ? And of course it's centred around one's own enjoyment, eh Bobby ? That gets back to the crux of the matter. Some supporters just don't crave a flag. They're happy going along and seeing their team do battle each week and enjoying whatever wins come their way. I have news for them. Football clubs only exist to win flags. I'm not sure that all supporters understand this premise. List managing for a few weeks to give your club the best chance at a flag in 5-7 years ? It seems a no brainer.

Bobby, just like on a footy field, they need to lift their eyes. Don't focus on the contest 30 metres ahead, raise their vision and spot out the better option 50 metres on. It's the one that just might yield that important goal.

That said, opinions can't be wrong and don't ridicule someone for expressing a view - and all that sort of stuff. You've made the world a better place, Bob.

[Axis of Bob 11,804]

You said it was 'unfathomable'.

Saying that you think they are wrong is different to that. If you think their reasons are obvious, why would you call their reasons 'unfathomable'? That implies that their opinions are unable to be understood, much in the same way that you imply in your response that you you do understand their opinions because they are 'pretty obvious'.

But I'm sure you'll retrospectively tell me that you already knew all that.

Also, not that it's important, but just because you only care about a flag and nothing else (apparently) it doesn't mean that is the sole reason that clubs exist. As a member based organisation it is in existance to serve the interests of its members. A premiership is an easy goal to have and I think most supporters will go along with that goal, but a football club serves so many different purposes for people. But, as you yourself said, some supporters 'just don't crave flags'. If that's the case then the club exists to satify their needs as they are a member of a membership organisation. If they don't feel that the club reflects their goals then they will leave, just as you would leave if you felt that the club was aimn for consistent competitiveness rather than aiming for a premiership. It's all about 'how it makes [you] feel'.

"It seems a no brainer" - Good to see you remaining open minded.

[Hannabal 4]

You said it was 'unfathomable'.

Saying that you think they are wrong is different to that. If you think their reasons are obvious, why would you call their reasons 'unfathomable'? That implies that their opinions are unable to be understood, much in the same way that you imply in your response that you you do understand their opinions because they are 'pretty obvious'.

But I'm sure you'll retrospectively tell me that you already knew all that.

Also, not that it's important, but just because you only care about a flag and nothing else (apparently) it doesn't mean that is the sole reason that clubs exist.

Unfathomable means "unable or difficult to be understood". And a 90+% poll result seems to support my view, because such an overwhelming majority doesn't indicate any wavering, or difficulty in reaching a conclusion. The "win at all costs" brigade's views are so basic in genesis that yes they're easy to comprehend, i.e see game win game, but such simplistic ideals or short-sighted theory when considering a club's ultimate goal is unfathomable to me, i.e "difficult to understand". Are you still with me ?

We all (mostly) enjoy the journey and watching talented footballers, but ultimately clubs only exist to win the premiership. It's so pure and simple that even the 'see game win game' brigade should understand. It's why the MFC are playing in what's called a "competition". Clubs aren't always realistically in a position to win a flag in a given year, but the sole aim of any club, and any decisions it makes for the future, must be with this quest in mind. Because some clubs don't always make decisions with this in mind they inhibit their chances of success. I hate Carlton, but they make all their decisions based on winning a flag. I'm not endorsing cheating the salary cap, etc, and no-one was happier than me when they were caught, but they at least understand why they exist. And it was a Melbourne icon that brought them this mentality over 40 years ago.

Unfortunately, it's your type of misunderstanding that epitomises this club and reflects its lack of success. It's also a view that embarrasses me and makes me sometimes cringe around MFC supporters. That you cannot understand the sole reason for clubs existing is telling.

[The Jack of Grimes 0]

I actually don't think we're entitled to number 1 pick in the rookie draft anyhow... i think Gold Coast has that. Or am I mistaken?

[beelzebub 23,367]

the concessions and draft picks happen next year

[col=sk 0]

muuuuuust tank, a no brainer really, club woudl be dumb not to.

As simple as that.

and im sure your all aware of that anyway.

[Demondeb 8]

Hey, not necessary. 52k2, I see we're both members of the Alan Johnson fan club. exciting player, AJ.

OOOh add me to that club!! Johnno is my all time fave.

I am as true a Demon as the rest and my blood runs red and blue but for the good of our club and the long term future and premiership success, we have to suck up some losses for now. I can do it, we are used to it ( which is sad but true) afterall and it shouldnt be that hard to endure when we can see what is tantalisingly around the corner.

I admire those that just want to keep winning, and I wish we could do that and still get Mr Scully, but we can't - we cant have our cake and get to eat it too so I say let WC and Freo eat cake and make themselves sick on it for all I care!! I want the cherrys (Scully/Trengove or Scully/ ? ) atop our premiership cake in say 3 years time.

Noone is going to much remember a win against a falling Swans team, a lowly North, Richmond or rabble such as Freo apart from the fact that the win cost us a champion. It wont make us a better team for winning against teams that have little or no hope of finals footy and so have taken their foot off the pedal. What will make for that winning culture is some wise recruiting and good list management - the team we put in for tomorrow will do ok.. hopefully put up a good fight but just fall short. Competitive performances will gladden most Demon hearts over winning ones now. Our joy will be on November 28 when we have just selected pick 1 & 2 and sit back to make our choice in pick 18. Then all our pain of this year and last, will fade into the distance.

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

well if we get technical, we have not tanked to this point, we have won the games we were capable of winning, allowing for one more win, possibly freo, tigers and roos would be considered danger games in terms of us winning, besides the 2nd half fade out from the tigers last week they have been playing better than us in recent weeks IMO , even though the win / loss would not suggest that. so we beat freo , loose to the tigers ( out played) and tank against the roos , that = 1 game tanked, i can live with that

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

I sit in the "tank" group but that does not mean I am comfortable or proud of the fact. I would have thought it difficult to argue that if the objective of the club is to win a Premiership at all costs then getting two top 3 or 4 picks this year can only assist in that objective.

But I fully understand the "no tank" group. The integrity of the AFL (or any competition) is built around each team performing as well as they can with the objective of winning each and every game. I'm not going to debate whether we are doing that but if we are not then we are simply cheating.

Of course we are not the only ones to have done/are doing this. We justify our position by convincing ourselves that because other have done/are doing it, it's ok for us to do it. I can (just) do that but can understand why others can't and I admire them. Rather than not having the same desire for a flag they just draw the line as to what they'll do to get it in a different spot. Is that so hard to understand?? It's got nothing to do with "desire" or "soft" or "accepting mediocrity". The concept of standing against the charging herd is well made and rather than admonishing this group I admire them.

If we win a flag with this group of players and those we get if we successfully get a PP this year I'll celebrate long and hard. But will it mean as much knowing that we "manipulated the system"? I don't know but I doubt it. Initially I'll be thrilled but in the following years the pleasure of that win will be tainted I think.

I wonder if I'll ever know....

The Club is doing NOTHING WRONG...Kids are getting experience in the Seniors, in readiness for next year.

You make it sound like evil things are being done...Not True.

The more experience our list gets the better the Demons shall be.

The Rest of 2009 Games are dead Rubbers for us, so use them wisely...Play the List

Rest Easy Thundercloud-if we win a flag with this group i will party long & Hard. We all will mate.

[G'borough Demon 0]

Each club has a different culture.

For example Richmond devours coaches and ex players.

Collingwood is a powerful club, yet ultimately unsuccessful.

etc. etc.

Melb. has developed a losing culture over the last fifty years

or so.

Failing at Grand Finals ignominiously.

Inability to win away from home.

Winning at the beginning of the year, then falling in a heap.

And more. It's too painful.

I will be absolutely convinced that the culture of losing

is here to stay if Melb. wins 5 or more matches.

They need to become ruthless like Carlton.

Win by losing and toss the old culture out.

Yeah lets be like Carlton, tank our ar*se off, pay over the salary cap, get loads of potential superstars and still be a crap team.... ruthless!?

Your all dreaming if you think 2/3 PP's are going to guarantee us a Grand Final win. I'm all for trying out the young blokes for experience and I hope we turn the Swans over and any other team that stands in our way. Go Dees!

[dee-luded 2,959]

I actually don't think we're entitled to number 1 pick in the rookie draft anyhow... i think Gold Coast has that. Or am I mistaken?

Draft Concession Package Summary

2009 National Draft

Ability to sign upto 12x 17 year olds born between January 1st - April 30th 1992 in 2009

2009 Rookie Draft

All first 5 selections - pick 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

Yeah lets be like Carlton, tank our ar*se off, pay over the salary cap, get loads of potential superstars and still be a crap team.... ruthless!?

Your all dreaming if you think 2/3 PP's are going to guarantee us a Grand Final win. I'm all for trying out the young blokes for experience and I hope we turn the Swans over and any other team that stands in our way. Go Dees!

Nobody has said we are going to win a flag, but the earliest draft picks give us a much better chance at it.

2009 is now practise games for next year, very important for player development but the four points are irrelevant.