Some home truths

[Mono 455]

Agree.

I think a decision has already been made on Robbo.

How so?

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

Some of the ch.10 footage of Bruce as a young player was inspirational. It highlighted how much he's lost of that spark today.

You just saw a small package of the young Bruce at his best.Go to the AFL website where it shows stats for every game of footy played. You would see that the young Cameron would only be getting about a third of the possessions he gets today. A similar package could be produced today showing his highlights. How can you possibly say he has lost his spark after his BOG games against WCE and Port? He's got a lot of spark left, don't you worry on that score.

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

Top 25 possesion winners and effiency. Bruce you are a gem.

1. Dane Swan - 70%

2. Gary Ablett - 75%

3. Sam Mitchell - 75%

4. Joel Selwood - 76%

5. Matthew Boyd - 69.89%

6. Chris Judd - 69.72% (Worst)

7. Kane Cornes - 76%

8. Shane Tuck - 71%

9. Leigh Montagna - 72%

10. Cameron Bruce - 80% (2nd best)

11. Nick Dal Santo - 74%

12. Paul Chapman - 75%

13. Luke Power - 73%

14. Daniel Cross - 83% (best)

15. Bryce Gibbs - 75%

16. Brendon Goddard - 76%

17. Paul Hasleby - 73%

18. Brent Stanton - 74%

19. Scott Pendlebury - 78%

20. Jimmy Bartel - 75%

21. Rhyce Shaw - 79%

22. Marc Murphy - 75%

23. Brent Moloney - 75%

24. Joel Corey - 72%

25. Bernie Vince - 79%

Certainly stats can be questioned at times BUT they are compiled by people who are NOT BIASED and PREJUDICED. I wonder if Colling@#@# supporters would rubbish Dane Swan, their #1 possession getter @ just 70% efficiency? Don't think so. Thanks for those enlightening stats.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

J-Mac - The least inspirational captain in the league. He's been a wonderful servant and a good footballer. Thanks for everything you've given.

I think that's harsh. From what little I've seen the team walks with a bit more pride when he's there, and he does provide good leadership. I'd say he's the least SUCCESSFUL captain in the league, sure. But leadership isn't all possessions and goals.

Don't upset the elders Most amusing is the mood of this forum can completely change from week to week on a single performance, and Impatience must be contagious around here.

Amazing isn't it? Football is such a shifting landscape. The more die-hard a supporter gets, the less they seem to be able to maintain perspective.

[Akum 2,660]

What frustrates me about Robbo, Bruce & Brock is that they were all good (B&B very good) against Port & WC, but poor against the better teams. Yes, Robbo & Brock were against Scarlett & Ling, best in the business, but they didn't give a yelp, although in fairness the same could be said of Flash for the first time this year. Bruce gets the ball, but the quality of his disposal seems inversely proportional to the quality of the opposition.

Starring against fellow cellar-dwellers is fine for where the team is now. But in future when we improve, we won't need players who shine only against the dud teams, we'll need players who can maintain their performance against top opposition and contribute to the team effort even if getting tagged. Will Bruce & Brock be able to do this? Not on the evidence we've seen so far.

The disposal stats are interesting, but I've never been able to work out what constitutes an "effective disposal". Is it "effective" because a good connection is made with the ball (by foot or by hand), or is it "effective" because it goes to a team-mate in a better position? I suspect that for statisticians it's the former, but for fans it's the latter, and that's the discrepancy with Bruce. If he balloons it 50m to CHF where there's Robbo against three opponents who sweep it away, it's an effective possession statistically but a turnover as far as the game is concerned because there was only a 10% chance of his teammate getting it.

What excites me about Jurrah and the Jacks (& Strauss & Blease by the way, two we haven't seen this year) is their ability to spear a pass to hit a teammate in traffic. This is the difference between purposeful disposal by foot, and disposal that may be effective but is hit-or-miss or kick-it-and-hope. This year it's the purposeful delivery - hitting a target - that marks out the top teams, because that's the only way to consistently beat defensive plays such as "floods" and "rolling zones" and "huddles". It's this skill I believe that's really going to define whether the older players stay or not when we start to climb the ladder.

[rpfc 28,779]

That is crap. All I've seen on this board this year is people bagging players when we lose and then mostly the same people pissing and moaning the the same players cost us a PP when we win. For sure, I only joined recently so I can only go on what I have seen but what I have seen is lose a game and you are crap and should be delisted. Win a game and you've let the team down.

A bit of consistancy would be nice.

Huh?

How would a player cost a PP?

Players don't tank. Tanking is player development, early starts for 2010, and youth development. That is what the coaches, and the selection committee does.

Player's chase a ball for two hours...

[Adam The God 30,411]

Outs: Robertson, Warnock, Jones, Grimes, Jurrah. Ins: Miller, Newton, Cheney, Bail, Whelan.

Wow, list management eh? I'm actually travelling up to Canberra so would prefer if we left in Grimesy and LJ, but I suppose LJ would kick a bag against them, while Warnock would probably shut down Jesse White. I believe we must give Newton another chance to prove his worth, obviously he's contracted for next season, which is why we're probably not rushing him back in, but if he could work out his kicking and bulk up, I could see him playing a Kozi type role for us. His work rate, despite what some people think is actually quite solid, while his hands are usually pretty strong. It's not like Kozi doesn't lack a bit of coordination, in fact I'd probably call him the most 'un-co' player in the league. Yet, he is playing his role, structually for the Saints, in kicking his couple of goals each week. If Newton had converted his opportunities earlier in the year, he could have had a few bags. Particularly, against the likes of Adelaide at the G, a game we would have won, had he kicked straight. As for Cheney and Whealen...do we have a spot for both of them in our back half? Watching Cheney again last week, I don't think he's good enough. Perhaps, time will tell, but last week he was way too fancy with his disposal in blustery conditions and turned it over a couple of times.

Unfortunately, I agree with YM on this one. Brock's disposal has always worried me and a number of times in the past few weeks, even when he's had good games, he has turned the ball over by foot, under little to no pressure. I'm still a little dumbfounded that people have not realised Brock is actually just slow and no matter how much pre season he gets, his speed will not improve. That said, I do have my foot in the camp of giving him a chance with good support players (like Scully) around him. Add another star in there (Trengove) and all of a sudden there will be competition in our midfield (Jones vs McLean vs Moloney) and hopefully that will be good for them. There's no doubt that both Jones and McLean are ball magnets, they just need to learn to make better decisions. Moloney is muscle and occasional ball winner. I'd keep him in the mix at this point in time too. As for Robbo, I have never got so close to actually hating one of our own in my entire life and that's going week in, week out for the past 16 to 17 years. It's like he's an opposition player, he does nothing to help the kids trying to learn around him. Strangely, he will win us the odd game against weak opposition (like Freo last year and the Eagles this year), but is that what we want at the moment? It doesn't really help anyone in the long term. There's no doubt Macca will retire at the end of the year, I wouldn't be surprised if he announces it after Round 20. As for Bruce, the last probably 4 or 5 seasons his disposal by foot has been one of the worst in our team. He's not a tough player, but he is a smart player. But as some have said, he is the sort of player we need to get tough on, in order to achieve premiership success.

Edited July 20, 2009 by AdamFarr

[titan_uranus 25,043]

Refering to YM's original post:

I agree with the comments on Robbo and McDonald. Junior surely won't play on next year, and shouldn't. He is past it, despite years of valiant service. I'm not convinced that McLean isn't carrying an injury. But if he's not, he needs to work on how he's going to deal with tags, and how he's going to improve his fitness.

Robertson is almost gone. Goes to ground in every contest, pins his hopes on one or two token chases, and isn't providing a consistent target. But he is getting the number 1 defender most weeks at the moment.

The comments on Bruce were unfortunately pretty accurate for the weekend's game, however, Bruce has been good this year.

[rpfc 28,779]

McLean will be better for a full pre-season. CC said he didn't do sprint work so I'm assuming he missed a chunk due to his ankle problems.

I just don't know why we are risking him in these pointless games.

Play Valenti or McKenzie and make sure Brock McLean is at his best March 2010.

[bjgc 0]

Time for some home truths about some real battlers.

Russell Robertson - is well and truly finished. There was talk on the commentary if he should get another contract next year. I can only assume they were kidding. Spends more time lying on the ground with fake injuries than running around getting a kick.

Cameron Bruce - a laughable effort today in his 200th. Classic dinky hand passes putting team mates under pressure, constant fumbles, running from contests. It was all there on display today. Who was the genius that gave him a 3 year deal? Untradeble as no other team will touch him.

Brock McLean - his career is going backwards at a rapid rate. Can not handle a tag. Time for the coaching staff to give him an ultimatum. Shape up or ship out. Completely out of the running for next skipper, thats for sure.

James McDonald - has given plenty to the MFC over the years, and has put his body on the line time and time again. But the game has passed him well and truly. I suspect he knows this, and will hang up the boots at years end.

Bruce's last month or so have been excellent. He had an ordinary game, he wasn't the only one.

McLean's last 2 weeks have been good. I would wait until he has a pre season if he is playing like this next year then we have major problems. He should be rested now. It's absolute madness for him to keep on playing.

It would be a massive mistake for Robertson to go around again. We need to persist with Morton, Bate, Watts, Martin and Jurrah. He should be dropped.

McDonald should have been dropped months ago. He is no longer up to AFL standard he should step aside to give Valenti or McKenzie a go.

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

Bruce's last month or so have been excellent. He had an ordinary game, he wasn't the only one.

McLean's last 2 weeks have been good. I would wait until he has a pre season if he is playing like this next year then we have major problems. He should be rested now. It's absolute madness for him to keep on playing.

Bruce & McLean played well over the last 2 weeks because the opposition was soft.

Last Saturday Cam was quoted in the Hun as saying He didn't believe in Tanking or Draft Picks, regardless of whether this was perceived as selfish. Fine, but Cam that means against TOP Opposition you must play your best games of all time.

He didn't, & although i would never question Cam's endevour i doubt he will ever be damaging against the Top Teams again.

I hope he does, but it will only be with the Help of Top Draft Picks.

Will be interesting to see Cam's Role next year.

[Hannabal 4]

McLean's last 2 weeks have been good. I would wait until he has a pre season if he is playing like this next year then we have major problems. He should be rested now. It's absolute madness for him to keep on playing.

McLean has been rubbish this year. I just hope he can show next year that his season was effected far more than any of us realise due to his injury in 08 and subsequent compromised preseason.

Luke Ball is having a pretty good year, but been down of recent times. I love the fact that Ross Lyon is prepared to make tough calls on his players.

[Its Miller time 6]

I hope some people on here watched Richmond blow a 7 goal lead yesterday. For all you calling for all the older players such as Robbo and Bruce to be delisted this is what will happen to us without them.

Richmond were too young and simply didn't know how to win the game. They had North beaten but stopped taking risks and started to try and save the game instead of taking the game on an winning it. They needed at least 1 of Bowden, Richo or Cousins out there to steady the ship.

Melbourne will be in a worse position than Richmond next year as our younger players have rarely played in a winning side. How many winning games have Morton and Grimes played in? Despite there flaws our older players have played in good sides that win games. They are the sort of leaders we need next year.

Im happy to lose all our remaining games this year but next year we will need old heads to guide our young chargers to victory. The younger guys and not the older ones will win the games for us but they need the direction and leadership from the experienced players.

[Akum 2,660]

... Richmond were too young and simply didn't know how to win the game. They had North beaten but stopped taking risks and started to try and save the game instead of taking the game on an winning it. They needed at least 1 of Bowden, Richo or Cousins out there to steady the ship.

...

Im happy to lose all our remaining games this year but next year we will need old heads to guide our young chargers to victory. The younger guys and not the older ones will win the games for us but they need the direction and leadership from the experienced players.

This is true to some extent - we'll need some of the more experienced players but not all of them. The question is, how many do we need to stay to consolidate the young team, and how many to go to make way for draft picks etc?

And the bolded part will be especially true from next year onwards. My concern is that as we improve & become competitive against top teams, we can't afford to carry experienced players who star against easybeats but disappear when the heat's on. If we're ever to move up the ladder, it's going to be the better teams that we have to be able to beat.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Akum

[Adam The God 30,411]

many geelong supporters around me were getting a teny bit worried.

Really? We never really headed them. We did play decent quarters after quarter time, but the game was over at quarter time. Geelong tried experimenting once they'd got a desired lead. The only point we looked like getting back into the match was during the 2nd, when we kicked three in a row, but that was extinguished when Petterd kicked an up and under and as a result we turned it over. But ultimately, the Geelong supporters seemed more frustrated than anything. They wanted a 20 goal win, as you do.

Edited July 20, 2009 by AdamFarr

[Ryan Dee 140]

This is true to some extent - we'll need some of the more experienced players but not all of them. The question is, how many do we need to stay to consolidate the young team, and how many to go to make way for draft picks etc?

And the bolded part will be especially true from next year onwards. My concern is that as we improve & become competitive against top teams, we can't afford to carry experienced players who star against easybeats but disappear when the heat's on. If we're ever to move up the ladder, it's going to be the better teams that we have to be able to beat.

It is going to be very interesting come seasons end. I personally would like to keep Bruce as he seems to stand up in the games that we do win. He will, and can help our team win games and provide great leasership. Whelan? Seems to be a lot of competition for his spot. He has been a great asset to the club for many years but I think his time could be coming to a close. Macca, well we all know this is his last season. Robbo should go as there is no reason for keeping him another year because that is all he would have left. The other is Wheatley? Unsure about this guy but he is only 28.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Mr Morton

[Adam The God 30,411]

What excites me about Jurrah and the Jacks (& Strauss & Blease by the way, two we haven't seen this year) is their ability to spear a pass to hit a teammate in traffic. This is the difference between purposeful disposal by foot, and disposal that may be effective but is hit-or-miss or kick-it-and-hope. This year it's the purposeful delivery - hitting a target - that marks out the top teams, because that's the only way to consistently beat defensive plays such as "floods" and "rolling zones" and "huddles". It's this skill I believe that's really going to define whether the older players stay or not when we start to climb the ladder.

Very good post, Akum. This is the major reason why I've valued Flash's output so highly this season. He hits targets and turnovers rarely occur from his foot.

[Adam The God 30,411]

Robertson is almost gone. Goes to ground in every contest, pins his hopes on one or two token chases, and isn't providing a consistent target. But he is getting the number 1 defender most weeks at the moment.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, Robbo is a dog, but he's still vital to our structure and we look so much better with a target to kick too.

This week, I wouldn't mind seeing Bails stick Bate in the square (ala vs. the Hawks in the NAB cup), next to LJ and clear out the rest of the forward line. Play Petterd as a lead up forward across half forward and through the middle. Bate is really starting to excite me as of late. His finishing is becoming deadly. I back him from 50-55 metres just about everytime. His finishing in close has been spot on too. With LJ naturally exciting my pants off, throw in Whopper and suddenly you have a forwardline worth talking about. Oh and then there's another deadly finisher called Colin Sylvia and throw forward pressure and goal smarts from Aussie and Jetta- we're improving. Bailey is doing his job, as far as I'm concerned. Let's fix up that midfield and we've got exciting times ahead.

I suppose on my above evaulation, we can't afford to get rid of Robbo just yet, as his presence allows the players around him to develop at their own pace. But, that's why I say, Bailey should start to work out some potential future forward structures now. May as well start this week against the Swannies.

Sorry, slightly off topic, but we have a bright future if you side track a little bit, outside of this thread.

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

What frustrates me about Robbo, Bruce & Brock is that they were all good (B&B very good) against Port & WC, but poor against the better teams. Yes, Robbo & Brock were against Scarlett & Ling, best in the business, but they didn't give a yelp, although in fairness the same could be said of Flash for the first time this year. Bruce gets the ball, but the quality of his disposal seems inversely proportional to the quality of the opposition.

Starring against fellow cellar-dwellers is fine for where the team is now. But in future when we improve, we won't need players who shine only against the dud teams, we'll need players who can maintain their performance against top opposition and contribute to the team effort even if getting tagged. Will Bruce & Brock be able to do this? Not on the evidence we've seen so far.

The disposal stats are interesting, but I've never been able to work out what constitutes an "effective disposal". Is it "effective" because a good connection is made with the ball (by foot or by hand), or is it "effective" because it goes to a team-mate in a better position? I suspect that for statisticians it's the former, but for fans it's the latter, and that's the discrepancy with Bruce. If he balloons it 50m to CHF where there's Robbo against three opponents who sweep it away, it's an effective possession statistically but a turnover as far as the game is concerned because there was only a 10% chance of his teammate getting it.

I find your comment that Bruce cannot play well against the 'better' teams amusing and inaccurate. Read his stats against stronger opposition this year. V Geel 18 poss and 21, V St K. 25, V Adel. 26,V West B. 26, V C'wood 30 and 28, V Bris. 28. All at 80% efficiency. I ask, how CONSISTENT can a bloke be? He had a quiet day ( 21) against Geel by his high standards. Watch him fly for his mate Greeny's 200. Brad certainly put in his bit for Cam on Saturday.

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

All those questioning whether Brock has what it takes to match it against real opposition should think back to our last finals series.

Chook has had a second rate year, but he has the ability to take it up to the best, he just needs to get himself right.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

All those questioning whether Brock has what it takes to match it against real opposition should think back to our last finals series.

It was 3 years ago.

What has happened since?

Just treading water in my opinion.

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

It was 3 years ago.

What has happened since?

Just treading water in my opinion.

No argument here.

Point is he has what it takes, for some reason he's not delivering.

[Roost It 1,434]

It was 3 years ago.

What has happened since?

Just treading water in my opinion.

He needs a long preseason starting now. If we recruit 2 gun midfielders Brock will have 1 year left to prove the game and him haven't parted ways. I wish him well but have my doubts.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

How so?

Dean Bailey in the Geelong match report suggested that veteran forward Russell Robertson started the second half on the bench for failing to adhere to team rules.

"We just thought a couple of efforts that he put in weren't quite up to the standard, so we had the opportunity to let players know that one of the ways [to address it] is to start on the bench," he said.

"I thought Russell tried pretty hard. As a senior player you probably get judged harder than a young Bennell or a young Jetta or Petterd … when you become a senior player, you've got to meet certain expectations."

At his age and experience even by the rather sfot and polite tones of these reports, this is not a comment about a player with a future past this year. Either he does not get it or cant do it.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Point is he has what it takes, for some reason he's not delivering.

3 years of mediocre performance is a long time in AFL.

He deserves the chance to get a full pre season in and if he does then the blow torch will and should be on him to perform.

Heaven help him if next year is like this year.