we need Hardwick

[mo64 5,874]

I only ask a question, so before the conspiracy theorists get hot under the collar and accepting we have kids, a lot of holes on our list and under performing more senior players, can we honestly say the current group and playing for the current coach?

As inexpert as I am, it does not look like it to me.

Exactly. If 1 or 2 senior players were underperforming, you can rightfully point the finger at them. When almost every senior player has underperformed in the past 18 months, you rightfully question the coach.

[Roost It 1,434]

Exactly. If 1 or 2 senior players were underperforming, you can rightfully point the finger at them. When almost every senior player has underperformed in the past 18 months, you rightfully question the coach.

What are you talking about. Bruce won the Best and Fairest, Green has been playing easily his best footy since Bailey arrived. Robertson and JMac are past it, even Wheatley had his best year under Bailey. Whelan has been injured. Facts Mo, we need facts, not fiction

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

What are you talking about. Bruce won the Best and Fairest, Green has been playing easily his best footy since Bailey arrived. Robertson and JMac are past it, even Wheatley had his best year under Bailey. Whelan has been injured. Facts Mo, we need facts, not fiction

The guys you refer to were coming of a very low base of team performance. Again, is this current group playing for the coach?

[Roost It 1,434]

The guys you refer to were coming of a very low base of team performance. Again, is this current group playing for the coach?

The guys I'm talking about are the senior players you and Mo believe are underperforming due in part to Bailey. I'm saying that they haven't underperformed. I'll also add that, bar Green, and probably Bruce, the rest are finished as footballers and there is nothing that Bailey or any other coach can do to change that. Suggesting that it is because of his coaching is just plain wrong

[mo64 5,874]

What are you talking about. Bruce won the Best and Fairest, Green has been playing easily his best footy since Bailey arrived. Robertson and JMac are past it, even Wheatley had his best year under Bailey. Whelan has been injured. Facts Mo, we need facts, not fiction

Fact - White, Neitz, Yze, Robertson, McDonald have shown or showed nothing under Bailey. The only reason that you say that they're are past it, is because they couldn't adjust to Bailey's or Daniher's '07 b#llshit gameplan. And if they were past it, why the f#ck were most of them nominated into the leadership group?

Fact - Bruce may have won the b&f, but the last 18 months have probably been his worst.

Fact - Green and Wheatley have played up to their usual good standard under Bailey because they can accumulate cheap possessions in our back half. Neither have influenced any games. Davey has been able to assume that role this season, but to greater effect.

Fact - Miller, McLean, Jones, Bate, Whelan are all struggling.

Name 1 player who has consistently performed in Bailey's 18 months? And don't say Sylvia or Moloney. Both have struggled at times.

[Roost It 1,434]

Fact - White, Neitz, Yze, Robertson, McDonald have shown or showed nothing under Bailey. The only reason that you say that they're are past it, is because they couldn't adjust to Bailey's b#llshit gameplan.

Fact - Bruce may have won the b&f, but the last 18 months have probably been his worst.

Fact - Green and Wheatley have played up to their usual good standard under Bailey because they can accumulate cheap possessions in our back half. Neither have influenced any games. Davey has been able to assume that role this season, but to greater effect.

Fact - Miller, McLean, Jones, Bate, Whelan are all struggling.

Name 1 player who has consistently performed in Bailey's 18 months?

Fact White, Neitz, Yze, Robertson, McDonald were all in the twighlight of their careers whan Bailey arrived. White was killed by the centre circle, Neitz was crippled, Yze's talent never translated to a team oriented gameplan, Robertson as never going to be much as a key forwatrd and the skipper's just plain old. None of these things could any coach change.

Bruce is getting older, he won the best and fairest but let's face it he's never liked the game hard and fast and that's what it is today.

Fact. Green had his best year last year as did Wheatley, Them's the facts Mo

Fact Miller is playing like Miller has always played, an honest toiler who will be a good 3rd or 4th forward. Mclean isn't upto any game plan at the moment but prior to his injury last year most had him leading our best and fairest. Jones is still learnng the game, his decision making isn't great and his skills under pressure need work. Remember Mo last year he was pretty much our number 1 midfielder due to injuries but I suppose that's Bailey's fault. Bate's Bate, he's ordinary below his knees and is slow, he'll turn out ok in the future. As for Whelan. Fact is Mo his body was finished 2 years ago, again don't see how that is Bailey's fault

Morton

When you write Fact Mo try following it up with something that is factual not just more anti Bailey rubbish.

[titan_uranus 25,019]

Okay. So in the last week, we've had the following suggestions:

- A call to sack Bailey, pay him out, and replace him with a guy whose never been part of an AFL coaching panel in his life.

- A call for a 19 year old kid, who has played a grand total of six AFL games, to be made captain next year

- A suggestion that we should have picked Natanui instead of Watts, on the grounds that he played better in his first game

- A call for us to move our best young defender into the forward line and take two quick midfielders with the first two draft picks, instead of simply picking the best two young players in the country (one of whom is apparently a gun key forward, giving us a chance to develop a great forwardline on top of our already promising backline)

And now we have a thread insisting that Hardwick would have been a much better coach than Bailey, a point that has been substantiated with precisely bugger-all. I'm looking forward to the next "let's do this" thread, which -I expect- will be a passionate 2000 word post, discussing at length why Davey should sit on Jamar's shoulders in the ruck contests, why McLean would be a 10x better player if he had a silver mouthguard, and why it is imperative that we draft Randy "Macho Man" Savage as our next full forward.

As always, a great post two sheds.

Fact - White, Neitz, Yze, Robertson, McDonald have shown or showed nothing under Bailey. The only reason that you say that they're are past it, is because they couldn't adjust to Bailey's or Daniher's '07 b#llshit gameplan. And if they were past it, why the f#ck were most of them nominated into the leadership group?

Fact - Bruce may have won the b&f, but the last 18 months have probably been his worst.

Fact - Green and Wheatley have played up to their usual good standard under Bailey because they can accumulate cheap possessions in our back half. Neither have influenced any games. Davey has been able to assume that role this season, but to greater effect.

Fact - Miller, McLean, Jones, Bate, Whelan are all struggling.

Name 1 player who has consistently performed in Bailey's 18 months? And don't say Sylvia or Moloney. Both have struggled at times.

Fact - none of the above are facts.

White, Neitz, Yze, Robertson and McDonald are old and are now beyond their best football. That doesn't mean they aren't good leaders. Playing well and being a leader are not requisite traits.

You don't win a best and fairest playing the worst football of your career. Regardless of his numerous flaws, Bruce is definitely trying.

Bate was struggling, but is now playing much better football. McLean and Jones can't be faulted for effort. Whelan is like Robertson and McDonald. I'll give you Miller.

And as for a consistent player in the past 18 months: Green. Consistently one of our best last year, and when he's played this year, he's played well.

I don't look at the team and think to myself, 'they're not trying'. If I did, then I'd question their relationship with the coach. But I see effort this year.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

The guys I'm talking about are the senior players you and Mo believe are underperforming due in part to Bailey. I'm saying that they haven't underperformed. I'll also add that, bar Green, and probably Bruce, the rest are finished as footballers and there is nothing that Bailey or any other coach can do to change that. Suggesting that it is because of his coaching is just plain wrong

I'm am not suggesting this has occurred just because of Bailey, I am simply asking the question are the players playing for him?

It's OK if you want to continue to accept on field mediocrity in the hope top draft picks will fix the problem. I would at least like to seem some real grunt in the team and I just don't.

[H_T 3,047]

When you write Fact Mo try following it up with something that is factual not just more anti Bailey rubbish.

I'd agree with that.

You seem to be very anti-Bailey Mo.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

I'd agree with that.

You seem to be very anti-Bailey Mo.

Why is it that when you question the commitment of the playing group, which surely any coach worth his salt should engender, you are summarily dismissed as being "anti". Surely we have a right, on this forum, to ask the question?

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

If Neitz "wasn't ready" for the captaincy, what does that makes Grimes?

Junior was the best choice for skipper at the start of this season and his appointment has allowed us the chance to select a younger skipper for 2010 - which is exactly what you're calling for.

There all good points but the way I see it. Grimes already had a big reputation as a leader even before he played a game and I see his inexperience possibly helping him cause he hasn't had the constant loser attitude that the older players have had. The captain is suppose to lead by example no matter if we are getting belted or not Green and Bruce have let us down too often over the years. McLean is the hard one to gauge cause on form he doesn't deserve it and we don't know if he is injured or not. He definately didn't have a good pre season.

Junior was the best choice a couple of years ago but we already had Neitz so he missed out, when they gave him the job he was in decline and now he is at the stage where he shouldn't be in the side I can't see how you can lead when you shouldn't be in the side it was a poor decision by Bailey and I would argue that we are no closer to finding an appropriate captain for 2010.

[Roost It 1,434]

I'm am not suggesting this has occurred just because of Bailey, I am simply asking the question are the players playing for him?

It's OK if you want to continue to accept on field mediocrity in the hope top draft picks will fix the problem. I would at least like to seem some real grunt in the team and I just don't.

We have to accept on field mediocrity because that is where this team is at. No coach would change that. The older players such as Bruce, Green, Robertson have never shown real grunt as you call it. JMac yes but he's old now. Whelan yes but he's finished. Mclean shows ahat grunt he can but he's a very limited footballer, probably due to his injuries. Moloney too shows some grunt but he too is limited as a footballer. Miller, well same again. It's the young ones we need to look at and well, they are still too young and underdeveloped to play with real grunt.

In saying this I understand what you are saying but I think you are expecting too much from this group, at the moment

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

We have to accept on field mediocrity because that is where this team is at. No coach would change that. The older players such as Bruce, Green, Robertson have never shown real grunt as you call it. JMac yes but he's old now. Whelan yes but he's finished. Mclean shows ahat grunt he can but he's a very limited footballer, probably due to his injuries. Moloney too shows some grunt but he too is limited as a footballer. Miller, well same again. It's the young ones we need to look at and well, they are still too young and underdeveloped to play with real grunt.

In saying this I understand what you are saying but I think you are expecting too much from this group, at the moment

We're certainly "mediocre", but I don't believe we're as bad as our recent on field performances suggest. And please don't tell me we've been more "competitive". There is an intangible on the field and sometimes you can almost smell it and touch it. I've not seen that at all.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Okay. So in the last week, we've had the following suggestions:

- A call to sack Bailey, pay him out, and replace him with a guy whose never been part of an AFL coaching panel in his life.

- A call for a 19 year old kid, who has played a grand total of six AFL games, to be made captain next year

- A suggestion that we should have picked Natanui instead of Watts, on the grounds that he played better in his first game

- A call for us to move our best young defender into the forward line and take two quick midfielders with the first two draft picks, instead of simply picking the best two young players in the country (one of whom is apparently a gun key forward, giving us a chance to develop a great forwardline on top of our already promising backline)

And now we have a thread insisting that Hardwick would have been a much better coach than Bailey, a point that has been substantiated with precisely bugger-all. I'm looking forward to the next "let's do this" thread, which -I expect- will be a passionate 2000 word post, discussing at length why Davey should sit on Jamar's shoulders in the ruck contests, why McLean would be a 10x better player if he had a silver mouthguard, and why it is imperative that we draft Randy "Macho Man" Savage as our next full forward.

Good post. Except the last of the four ridiculous questions. I reckon it has some merit. Garland is one of the few defenders that has the skillset to do damage in the forward line, and we certainly are overwhelmed by good defensive talls.

Otherwise, makes sense.

[Roost It 1,434]

We're certainly "mediocre", but I don't believe we're as bad as our recent on field performances suggest. And please don't tell me we've been more "competitive". There is an intangible on the field and sometimes you can almost smell it and touch it. I've not seen that at all.

If Collingwood had only beaten us by 10 points would we be having this conversation, which by the way, I'm enjoying immensly

[Je Roos Salem 661]

What Could Hardwick bring to the club?

come on think about it seriously, I don't think Hardwick could put the club in a better position at all.

[mo64 5,874]

I'd agree with that.

You seem to be very anti-Bailey Mo.

I never questioned Bailey's appointment, but as soon as he outlined his gameplan, I knew we were in trouble.

Fact - Last season percentage of 64%. Current season 70%. Win/Loss record 4/29.

Fact - Regardless of win/loss record, we play ugly defense oriented football.

I'm not anti Bailey as you suggest. I'm just sick of reading all the b#llshit on this site about what a great coach he is because he's turned over our list. And how no other coach could do any better because our list is so bad.

I'm one of the few who is actually judging Bailey based on what's happening on the ground. There is no evidence to suggest that he is a good tactician or motivator.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Fact - White, Neitz, Yze, Robertson, McDonald have shown or showed nothing under Bailey. The only reason that you say that they're are past it, is because they couldn't adjust to Bailey's or Daniher's '07 b#llshit gameplan. And if they were past it, why the f#ck were most of them nominated into the leadership group?

Oh dear Mo and facts = fiction. The team that picked the leadership group had more than half the group that had 2 years or less experience. Less than even you. The extent of their inexperience is they chose Yze and Robbo both of whom subsequently dumped six months later. Quite prophetic when a supposed leader sacrifices the team for a selfish act flat on his back.

A(nother) lesson for you.

REAL FACTS;

White, Neitz and Yze were finished as footballers in 2007. Yze had been deteriorating since 2005 when he "captained" the side off the bench. Robbo has struggled with injury and the changing game since 2006. His only notable efforts in 2007 were soft opposition in Carlton (x2) and Collingwood who played a raw recruit on him. He also struggled with the game like he has now because he cant adapt to the demands of it and spends too much time flat on the ground pondering a second effort or planning the next goal of the day. Junior is a valiant servant of the club but he too as player has deteriorated with his best years behind him. The pace of the game and lack of support have taken their toll.

Fact - Bruce may have won the b&f, but the last 18 months have probably been his worst.

REAL FACT

Bruce has battledly gainfully without support through the midfield. I dont think he has been that good but that tells you where the list is at. Not that you could ever work out.

Fact - Green and Wheatley have played up to their usual good standard under Bailey because they can accumulate cheap possessions in our back half. Neither have influenced any games. Davey has been able to assume that role this season, but to greater effect.

REAL FACT - Green has worked hard and valiantly against the odds. Green rarely influenced games under ND. Wheatley rarely did. He has been chronically injured over the past two years and he is another one who will be gone at year end.

Fact - Miller, McLean, Jones, Bate, Whelan are all struggling.

REAL FACTS

Miller has played some of his best football under Bailey but he is fighting a lone hand and is a limited footballer. He will always be a battling honest footballer. McLean is either unfit (carrying injury according to some) or he is being found for lack of pace and ordinary disposal. No questioning his endeavour or his team spirit. But he aint a No midfielder. Jones is playing better football now under Bailey because he is fitter and more experienced. He will never be a star and has battled particularly in the midfield when McLean was out. He aint a No 1 midfielder but he will be part of the longer term midfield rotation. Bate playing with Miller a lone hand without class up forward. He is actually improving up there and despite his Pies effort.

Whelan is injury prone and playing on heart alone. He is another one who is finished at year end.

Name 1 player who has consistently performed in Bailey's 18 months? And don't say Sylvia or Moloney. Both have struggled at times.

REAL FACTS

Garland, Warnock, Frawley, Jones, Moloney (certainly improved over last year but he is battler). I will also add Sylvia, if his last month is something to go by and he keeps it up then he could be an A grader we are looking for. He has played the best football of his career.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I never questioned Bailey's appointment, but as soon as he outlined his gameplan, I knew we were in trouble.

Fact - Last season percentage of 64%. Current season 70%. Win/Loss record 4/29.

Fact - Regardless of win/loss record, we play ugly defense oriented football.

I'm not anti Bailey as you suggest. I'm just sick of reading all the b#llshit on this site about what a great coach he is because he's turned over our list. And how no other coach could do any better because our list is so bad.

I'm one of the few who is actually judging Bailey based on what's happening on the ground. There is no evidence to suggest that he is a good tactician or motivator.

You have not got a clue period Mo and your posts are your worst advertisement. You dont like the game plan and you have shut your little mind down and the dribble is mindless, thoughtless and without any incite whatsoever.

"I'm just sick of reading all the b#llshit on this site about what a great coach he is because he's turned over our list. And how no other coach could do any better because our list is so bad. "

Once again no one has ever argued those points at all. You do that alot. Its just one of your turgid efforts to give your baseless comments an air of substance.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

We're certainly "mediocre", but I don't believe we're as bad as our recent on field performances suggest. And please don't tell me we've been more "competitive". There is an intangible on the field and sometimes you can almost smell it and touch it. I've not seen that at all.

Do you go to the games at all Iva?

I have been to all the Victorian games and watch any interstate games on TV and the workrate and contested balls efforts have definitely improved. However disposal and decision making are still issues.

Aside from QBW, we have been a far more competitive outfit. Where as last year too often we were just blown away from the 1st bounce and completely overwhelmed.

If you cant see that it raises questions. But not necessarily about the side.

[Sir Why You Little 37,037]

Lets just wait to see what Bailey can do with some Gun Young Forwards & Hopefully a young Gun Midfielder to work with next year. Till then i will completely reserve my judgement & totally support what he is doing.

It is a very tough Gig to coach the MFC right now & i think Bails handles himself admirably.

I doubt anyone on here could handle the pressure.

[Roost It 1,434]

You have not got a clue period Mo and your posts are your worst advertisement. You dont like the game plan and you have shut your little mind down and the dribble is mindless, thoughtless and without any incite whatsoever.

"I'm just sick of reading all the b#llshit on this site about what a great coach he is because he's turned over our list. And how no other coach could do any better because our list is so bad. "

Once again no one has ever argued those points at all. You do that alot. Its just one of your turgid efforts to give your baseless comments an air of substance.

I didn't think we were allowed to absolutely can people on this site. Or is that "Moderators" can and "We" can't

[mo64 5,874]

I didn't think we were allowed to absolutely can people on this site. Or is that "Moderators" can and "We" can't

Don't worry about it Roost It. I'd be offended if it came from a poster I respect. We all know that Rhino is just a keyboard bully who's trying to let out his frustrations after years of childhood taunts.

[donny williams no 25 0]

If Collingwood had only beaten us by 10 points would we be having this conversation, which by the way, I'm enjoying immensly

Well, Footscray--now 3rd on the ladder, beat us by--was it 10 --points. Any lack of effort by anyone, young or old, that day?Or in the 2nd half against Hawthorn?We could have been slaughtered that day--last year we would have been.

The fact is that as a season progresses young players will be found wanting, and although it's true a number of senior players were poor against C'wood, so also were many of the kids. After a week's rest we should expect better this week though I have suspicion we may have some illness in the camp!

[1858 285]

Why do we need Hardwick when we already have Wellman?