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DaveyDee

Ex-Demon Craig Cameron on the move again

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9 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

You only need to look at Nathan Jones to see what the right attitude can do for you.  Even in our dark times, he was a shining light.  It's attitude, ethic and respect.  Some have it in spades, some have it but don't do anything about it, others have NFI what it is.

You clearly have an emotional attachment to CC and/or BP, I respect that.  I have an emotional attachment to the MFC.  But sane people would clearly be able to see our drafting was woeful during their tenure.  If the Head of Recruitment can't take a massive amount of blame for that, then our discussion/disagreement can't go any further.

With all due respect  Chazz       It's amazing that with the power of hindsight how we all know better than the people who made the draft choises.   This applys to all teams over a long period of time.

You can follow a kid from under 14's to uder 18's and think you have found a star but when put into the open age AFL you find that he is not as good as you thought.     Jimmy Toumpas is a great example of this    Was a brilliant Junior but is really struggling at MFC and now Port.

We all know we would have picked James Hird in the top 10 but the silly recruiters waited to pick 79 or whatever pick he went at.

Every club picks so called duds (Hate that word)   You can only go by what you see and what you think you can get at that pick.

It is pointless to point blame at one person 

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9 minutes ago, Bossdog said:

It is pointless to point blame at one person 

Its heart warming to hear an MFC supporter say this. Finally, we can start the long road back, put the past behind us, respect the people and the positions they hold at our football club. 

The future is bright 

Go Dees

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Cc has been a good  fairly good recruiter, between 1998 and 2006 we played finals 6 times, we did not win a flag but it was a good time since then we have not played finals, it's funny how the last 11year make the 10 before that look worse then they really were, after he left Richmond they won a flag there was a few players he pick in that flag, GWS has made top 4 twice, that record speaks for it self.

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Craig Cameron D+  1996-2007

Barry Prendergast F  2008 -2011

Todd Viney B+  2012

Jason Taylor A-  2013 to current 

Edited by spirit of norm smith
Y
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7 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Craig Cameron D+  1996-2007

Barry Prendergast F  2008 -2011

Todd Viney B+  2012

Jason Taylor A-  2013 to current 

Sanity prevails

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15 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Craig Cameron D+  1996-2007

Barry Prendergast F  2008 -2011

Todd Viney B+  2012

Jason Taylor A-  2013 to current 

And Wells at Geelong?

It's simple, if you do your job well, clubs don't get rid of you.

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2 hours ago, Bossdog said:

1. With all due respect  Chazz       It's amazing that with the power of hindsight how we all know better than the people who made the draft choises.   This applys to all teams over a long period of time.

2. You can follow a kid from under 14's to uder 18's and think you have found a star but when put into the open age AFL you find that he is not as good as you thought.     Jimmy Toumpas is a great example of this    Was a brilliant Junior but is really struggling at MFC and now Port.

3. We all know we would have picked James Hird in the top 10 but the silly recruiters waited to pick 79 or whatever pick he went at.

4. Every club picks so called duds (Hate that word)   You can only go by what you see and what you think you can get at that pick.

5. It is pointless to point blame at one person 

1. That's all us, the supporter, has got to base it on.  It's also all that the industry itself has to base opinions on.  We aren't in the meetings with coaches, parents, school teachers, etc.  We don't get paid to make the decision at the time though.

2.  Again, that's what they (recruiters) get paid to do.  We're talking about the highest level of competition for this sport in the country.  We hire people that are experts in their field.  Compare the Toumpas v Wines situation with the Oliver v Parish.  The criteria which we selected Toumpas on was clearly wrong.  If we used the same recruiting principles in the Toumpas/Wines draft as we did in the Oliver/Parish draft, we pick differently.

3.  WTF has this got to do with your argument?

4. It's the quantity of the duds, coupled with the quality of the picks that has been the issue during the CC/BP era.  Recruiters that get the ratio right, they last in their jobs.  Poor ones, if they are lucky, go from club to club in roles that aren't directly related to recruitment.

5. Again, a serious amount of the responsibility has to fall on the shoulders of the head recruiter.  

I'll leave this state here, and you tell me if our recent recruiters have done a satisfactory job or not...

10 of this years 18 club B&F winners were first round draft picks, with 6 players taken in the pick 20-40 range.  That doesn't include Ablett (F&S), and Zorko (zone).  In the past 11 years, we've had 8 individual B&F winners.  Only one of them has come from the first round (Jones at 12), with 3 of the other 7 coming from either the rookie draft or preseason draft.  A majority of B&F winners, and Brownlow winners for that matter, come from the first round.

 

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1 hour ago, The Chazz said:

It's simple, if you do your job well, clubs don't get rid of you.

1

Well you need to recognize that Craig has never lost his job.  He was headhunted by Richmond and did a very good job there managing the exits of Miller and Wallace and establishing a credible football department.

He left Richmond to pursue his love of horseracing but didn't know he was getting into bed with a crook.  He was headhunted by Campbell at GWS and then headhunted by Evans at GCS.  It's not a bad CV.

As for his time at Melbourne he was good.  He lost some draft picks when Gutnick exposed a previous administrations salary cap cheating.  His first few drafts were very good.  1997 drafts landed Johnstone, Rigoni.  His first rookie draft was Nathan Bassett, Daniel Ward,  Matthew Bishop,  Robbo and Junior McDonald.  He had some poor years as well.

What is often overlooked is he was doing the job of about 5 full-timers. There were no development coaches, no full-time staff sifting through hours of vision - just him.  I get frustrated with the criticism of Craig (along with others) because it's never balanced with a recognition of the circumstances of the Club.  The reality is we did very well under Fagan, Cameron and Daniher given our circumstances.

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7 hours ago, The Chazz said:

And Wells at Geelong?

It's simple, if you do your job well, clubs don't get rid of you.

Its simple, if your club spends millions on player development and FD resources you get the right kids at nearly any pick in the draft. Plus you get the bonus of getting nearly any player you want during the trade period. 

How much more have Geelong spent than us ? - you would be staggered. 

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5 hours ago, Vogon Poetry said:

What is often overlooked is he was doing the job of about 5 full-timers. There were no development coaches, no full-time staff sifting through hours of vision - just him.  I get frustrated with the criticism of Craig (along with others) because it's never balanced with a recognition of the circumstances of the Club.  The reality is we did very well under Fagan, Cameron and Daniher given our circumstances.

Not sure its "overlooked" many fans are ignorant of what is happening at their own clubs. 

 

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7 hours ago, The Chazz said:

 Poor ones, if they are lucky, go from club to club in roles that aren't directly related to recruitment.

Well then CC and BP both were head-hunted from the MFC and got jobs directly related to recruiting. 

So if the "poor ones" arent related to recruiting well then your argument makes no sense or you dont know the facts. 

Interesting article you should read - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/man-who-rebuilt-the-tigers-just-another-face-in-the-crowd/news-story/a16a3c8cba0a36eef6bbd05366797b26

Edited by DaveyDee
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12 hours ago, DaveyDee said:

Well then CC and BP both were head-hunted from the MFC and got jobs directly related to recruiting. 

So if the "poor ones" arent related to recruiting well then your argument makes no sense or you dont know the facts. 

Interesting article you should read - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/man-who-rebuilt-the-tigers-just-another-face-in-the-crowd/news-story/a16a3c8cba0a36eef6bbd05366797b26

CC was our Recruitment Manager.  He worked at Richmond, GWS and now GC as List Manager.  Significantly different roles and responsibilities.

BP went to Carlton as an opposition analyst.  That's not related to recruiting.  He's now at North looking after their academy, as well as being a recruitment "officer" (whatever that means).

Please correct me if any of the above is wrong.

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53 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

CC was our Recruitment Manager.  He worked at Richmond, GWS and now GC as List Manager.  Significantly different roles and responsibilities.

 

This is wrong I'm afraid.  CAC worked as both the list manager and recruiting manager. He was responsible for player contracts, TPP calculations, recruiting, trading and list structure.

He was a one-man band and it was a credit to him that he did as good a job as he did given that we now have Viney, Taylor, O'Donnell and others doing what CAC was doing.

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2 hours ago, The Chazz said:

CC was our Recruitment Manager.  He worked at Richmond, GWS and now GC as List Manager.  Significantly different roles and responsibilities.

BP went to Carlton as an opposition analyst.  That's not related to recruiting.  He's now at North looking after their academy, as well as being a recruitment "officer" (whatever that means).

Please correct me if any of the above is wrong.

Yes, Im sorry you are wrong. VP has answered for CC I will help you with BP. 

Do you know what an "opposition analyst" does? I will give you a clue in the era of modern day recruiting.

There are basically 3 ways to recruit a player to your club. 1/ Draft 2/ Trade 3/ Free Agency. 

Your "opposition analyst" is vital in the recruiting process - Do you understand why?  

 

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1 hour ago, DaveyDee said:

Yes, Im sorry you are wrong. VP has answered for CC I will help you with BP. 

Do you know what an "opposition analyst" does? I will give you a clue in the era of modern day recruiting.

There are basically 3 ways to recruit a player to your club. 1/ Draft 2/ Trade 3/ Free Agency. 

Your "opposition analyst" is vital in the recruiting process - Do you understand why?  

 

You originally said that BP was headhunted for a role directly related to recruiting.  Your definition of "directly related" is clearly different to mine.

BP's main role at Carlton would see him work a heck of a lot more with the coaches than the recruitment team.  Where he would have some input in, in terms of player acquisition, would be tried players.  This has nothing to do with drafting kids, which is what he failed terribly at with us.

I'm trying to work out if you are related to CC or BP.  Whichever one you are, Vogan is obviously related to the other.  This clouds both your judgements, which means this discussion has ended.  I'm not wasting any more of my time on either topic.

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In 1999 he came into the video shop I worked in, and when I complained (unfairly as I know now considering we made a GF the next year) about Darren Kowal being delisted he laughed and said "get a new favourite player". Never liked him after that.

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22 minutes ago, Supermercado said:

In 1999 he came into the video shop I worked in, and when I complained (unfairly as I know now considering we made a GF the next year) about Darren Kowal being delisted he laughed and said "get a new favourite player". Never liked him after that.

That goal over his Kowal kicked was something else.

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1 hour ago, The Chazz said:

Whichever one you are, Vogan is obviously related to the other.  This clouds both your judgements, which means this discussion has ended.

 

I can assure you that I'm not related to CAC but I do know very well what his job was at MFC and RFC.  If the facts don't suit you and you want to run away from the discussion that's fine but don't justify it with "this clouds both your judgements".  The reality is I'm afraid you're just plain wrong.  It's fact, not a judgement.

I don't have the same knowledge as DD about Barry but he was opposition analyst at MFC prior to taking the recruiting job when CAC was headhunted by Richmond.  He had one full time assistant (Gary Burleigh if my memory serves me correctly) and after one year in the job Tim Harrington joined as List Manager.  Barry was never responsible for the TPP or negotiating player contracts which CAC was, that was handled by Chris Connolly.

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Why even create the topic DaveyDee?  An MFC employee from over a decade ago got a new job. OK.  "Interesting".  The eleven subsequent posts of yours go a fair way to answering my initial question, but do you have anything further to add?

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Craig Cameron at Demons -

Did we have any good drafts except 1999? Sustained poor recruiting for several years saw us drop off a cliff when the older players (Yze, Neitz, White, etc) faded or retired by 2007. It is quite true, the only reason he has any credit is because of the Prendergast debacle in the following years.

Craig Cameron at Richmond -

Joined end of 2007, and stayed until after the 2012 recruiting period. Recruiting managed to add barely 1 lasting player a season and the club stagnated overall, held together for those years and the next few by an older core, including 8 players who took 70% of all top-10 B&F placings from 2012 to 2015. Richmond's turnaround only began in any meaningful sense at least two years after Cameron left, with the big boost to depth provided by their 2014 draft.

Craig Cameron at GWS -

Well, it is really only 2016. Some might say that Caleb Marchbank, Jack Steele and Will Hoskin-Elliot were a bit much to give up for some academy points. But there's not much to take from one season, is there?

 

Overall, you;d have to say that the word to describe Craig Cameron's tenure anywhere is just 'stagnant'.

 

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50 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

I can assure you that I'm not related to CAC but I do know very well what his job was at MFC and RFC.  If the facts don't suit you and you want to run away from the discussion that's fine but don't justify it with "this clouds both your judgements".  The reality is I'm afraid you're just plain wrong.  It's fact, not a judgement.

I don't have the same knowledge as DD about Barry but he was opposition analyst at MFC prior to taking the recruiting job when CAC was headhunted by Richmond.  He had one full time assistant (Gary Burleigh if my memory serves me correctly) and after one year in the job Tim Harrington joined as List Manager.  Barry was never responsible for the TPP or negotiating player contracts which CAC was, that was handled by Chris Connolly.

I can assure you I'm also not related to CC & BP.

100% agree with you Chazz has no understanding of what certain personnel at a club do in regards to drafting, trading and free agency, he has made an assumption and he is wrong. 

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55 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

Craig Cameron at Demons -

 

Craig Cameron at Richmond -

Joined end of 2007, and stayed until after the 2012 recruiting period. Recruiting managed to add barely 1 lasting player a season and the club stagnated overall, held together for those years and the next few by an older core, including 8 players who took 70% of all top-10 B&F placings from 2012 to 2015. Richmond's turnaround only began in any meaningful sense at least two years after Cameron left, with the big boost to depth provided by their 2014 draft.

Overall, you;d have to say that the word to describe Craig Cameron's tenure anywhere is just 'stagnant'.

 

2

You may not have read the article that DD has highlighted above.  These quotes are from Gary March who was the President in 2007 until Peggy O'Neill took over.

 

“The unsung heroes in the Richmond story are the Craig Camerons and the Blair Hartleys, who have been criticised, but if you actually look at their record, it’s pretty bloody good. It wasn’t long ago people were criticising Blair over his recruiting of Bachar Houli and Shaun Grigg.

“People scoffed at us. I don’t think people understand the legacy of Craig Cameron and Blair Hartley. The board and the ­administration should take some credit too, but they completely changed Richmond’s philosophy on list management."

“Craig was the catalyst. He was the first to open up my eyes about a five- to eight-year plan around list management."

I'll let you read the rest of the article if you're interested but my guess is you aren't really.

But it's just ignorant to call his time at Richmond "stagnant".  In case you missed it Richmond won the Premiership this year and he was one of the architects.

 

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6 hours ago, Vogon Poetry said:

You may not have read the article that DD has highlighted above.  These quotes are from Gary March who was the President in 2007 until Peggy O'Neill took over.

 

“The unsung heroes in the Richmond story are the Craig Camerons and the Blair Hartleys, who have been criticised, but if you actually look at their record, it’s pretty bloody good. It wasn’t long ago people were criticising Blair over his recruiting of Bachar Houli and Shaun Grigg.

“People scoffed at us. I don’t think people understand the legacy of Craig Cameron and Blair Hartley. The board and the ­administration should take some credit too, but they completely changed Richmond’s philosophy on list management."

“Craig was the catalyst. He was the first to open up my eyes about a five- to eight-year plan around list management."

I'll let you read the rest of the article if you're interested but my guess is you aren't really.

But it's just ignorant to call his time at Richmond "stagnant".  In case you missed it Richmond won the Premiership this year and he was one of the architects.

 

I find the 'scoffed at us because of Houli and Grigg' comment especially funny because those two represent close to a quarter of all recruiting gains made by Richmond in those five years. The rest being Martin, Ellis, Grimes and Conca.

The scoffing may have had something more to do with also recruiting Addam Maric, Graham Polak, Ricky Petterd, Tom Hislop, Brad Miller, Sam Lonergan, Jordan McMahon, Mitch Morton, Chris Knights, Troy Chaplin, Aaron Edwards, Adam Thompson and Ben Cousins.

As for the quoted 'the first to open up my eyes to a five-to-eight-year plan around list management'... um... wow. Terry Wallace has really been revised out of the history of that football club, eh? Can't blame them for wanting to do that. But that statement is just plain absurd and if it got past your goalkeeper, you've got troubles.

 

As far as list development goes, the 2014 draft, on its own, contributed almost as much to Richmond's premiership squad as the entire five years under Cameron's leadership.

As for the development of club culture, can nobody else recall that at the end of 2016 Richmond was in crisis, and undertook a total review and overhaul of their coaching panel, all areas of football operations, and made an explicit commitment to consciously, deliberately change the culture? That whole 'we took a good hard look at ourselves and the club has a completely different feel to it this year' line that we've heard hundreds of times all the way through 2017.

 

If you really want to get your football opinions from a padded press release, ok, but don't come telling me I'm ignorant or not bothering to check my facts when I know full well what I'm working with.

Richmond's list, football operations and culture stagnated during the period Craig Cameron was there.

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17 hours ago, Trisul said:

Why even create the topic DaveyDee?  An MFC employee from over a decade ago got a new job. OK.  "Interesting".  The eleven subsequent posts of yours go a fair way to answering my initial question, but do you have anything further to add?

Had I known there was so much hate & blame still around for CC I would not have. I thought we had matured as a club, learnt from our mistakes - sorry I was clearly wrong.

Now I comprehend my mistake - the expertise at Demonland regarding Footy Department maters at the MFC and across multiple clubs is staggering - I officially apologise for starting the thread. 

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