Leaderboard

I like this and dad and I try all the time, I find it easier to group teams. For me, Hawthorn, West Coast, Collingwood and Sydney are above the rest in no particular order, These teams will make finals unless there is a disaster. Then Adelaide Geelong Fremantle Essendon. These four should make finals but could miss out Then Carlton, North Melbourne, Richmond behind them. These teams shouldnt make finals but its possible. Then Melbourne St Kilda Brisbane. Not far off the pack above, if these teams can have an outstanding year finals is a slight possibility but probably not realistic. And GWS Gold Coast Port Adelaide and Bulldogs holding the ladder up. So... 1. West Coast 2. Hawthorn 3. Sydney 4. Collingwood 5. Adelaide 6. Geelong 7. Essendon 8. Fremantle 9. North Melbourne 10. Carlton 11. Richmond 12. Melbourne 13. Brisbane 14. St Kilda 15. Gold Coast 16. Western Bulldogs 17. Port Adelaide 18. GWS The bottom and top teams in each group could change IMO for example Melbourne could have a great year, not alot of key injuries and win a few close ones and jump up a group but I cant see us jumping up 2 groups. Or Fremantle could be desimated by injury and slide down a group.

I cannot believe how everybody puts Collingwood into the top four. i don't think that they are guaranteed.

LOL The off-season is for fantasy Plenty of time for realism and depression once the season starts

The best song of the year!

Good to see he is still getting top recognition over there! Thoughts?

Finals. That is the aim and my expectation at the start of every year. Then these expectations are readjusted depending on how well/poorly we are doing

What??The start of 2012 was diabolical. What Planet were you watching from? Stop making excuses please. We were awful. Season over during the first game round one.

IMO we have to work out the top 8 first of all, because its not a matter of throwing a dart at a board to get our position. There are only 18 positions on the ladder & every team will fill one spot. IMO we won't make the top 8 yet. So I've done my rough out ladder from the top down. guessing my improvers & up against them, my sliders. Once into the middle ladder, the waters get muddied, so I've gone with some close teams, based on they're comp' maturity & team cohesion. 1. Hawthorn 2. West Coast 3. Adelaide 4. Sydney 5. Collingwood 6. Geelong 7. Carlton 8. Fremantle -------------------- 9. Essendon 10. Kangaroos 11. Melbourne 12. Bulldogs 13. Richmond 14. St Kilda 15. Brisbane 16. GWS 17. Gold Coast 18. Port Adelaide

I think the majority of us at the time would have been content with the selection. As the opening paragraph of the article referred to in the OP says, "Having pieced together a glittering midfield in recent years, the Demons nabbed under-18 All-Australian centre half-forward Lucas Cook." We had picked up Scully, Trengove and Gysberts with our first three selections (1, 2 & 11) in 2009 and all of them had shown sufficient promise in their debut seasons to suggest that within a couple of years our midfield problems would be fixed. With the new GCS franchise picking the eyes out of the early selections (many of who were midfielders) there was a belief that we would do well if we picked one of the top two or three KPP's available in the draft. An All Australian CHF who was tall, could run and kick well, looked appealing. "... Melbourne saw the potential in a forward line that already has a bevy of dynamic mid-sized forwards including Liam Jurrah and Jack Watts. It needed a focal point. A bigger body. A tireless worker. Now it has it. One with a big heart, too. The bonus? Cook doubles as a centre-half-back, where he regularly played in the TAC Cup and national championships." Well, as it happened, not only did Clark get it wrong (query the big body, tireless worker and big heart) but so did Barry Prendergast and so did most of us. Of course, Prendergast and his team had the opportunity to test out whether Cook was psychologically up to the task of progressing from under 18 ranks into elite ranks (and yes, it's not an exact science and it all takes time ...) and this is where I believe the club failed. From his first training run when Cook showed obvious signs of distress and didn't last the session, it was clear there were problems. He did however, start showing something at Casey and looked good when he booted four goals in a televised match on the QB weekend but then injury intervened and he had season ending hip surgery. He just didn't kick on this year. He might get a couple of goals early in a game and then go missing as the opposition manned up on him. I was impressed a couple of times at how he tried to be a leader in the forward line with the use of his voice, trying to bring teammates into the game etc. but he was just too light and often was simply brushed out of marking contests. As the season progressed, I couldn't see any signs of improvement that might suggest he could make it in AFL ranks, so it was almost inevitable that he would be gone by year's end. It was never the kid's fault. He wasn't cut out for this caper and we should remember for the future that AA selection means little. We might fault Prendergast for the selection but one wonders whether what became fairly obvious soon after Cook arrived at the club could have been detected during the observation and testing period in 2010. Everyone talks in hindsight about how we missed out on an Atley or a Darling but what interests me is how Sam Day and Tom Lynch who were the KPP's picked before Cook fare. I suppose the Suns always had more time on their side anyway.

My three year old can now sing all of 'Grand Old Flag' and does so regularly without prompting. That's pretty exciting. Considerable work behind my wife's back went into the process of indoctrination.

There should be a 'Richmond' button on your microwave.

Just pre-season itself seems to be a lot more exciting than the actual season. We are on fire right now i reckon, definately top 8!!!

8 wins is a pass???? With the draw we have? That's insane. It should be a 10 win minimum starting with Rd 1 when we haven't won since 2005. PLaying Port at home should be the perfect start. And the NAB Cup? I want to see some momentum. We never have any going into the year and it is in my view vital that we register some good form in the NAB cup to take that momentum into the year.

The key issues for me are: 1. We could not get any easier draw this year as we play GWS, GC, BL and WB twice. We start with PA at home. 2. We still dont have a midfield that will see big improvement there. Viney and Toumpas will still take a couple of years to show there worth. 3. And with no injuries or stupid suspensions....... I reckon a pass mark for us will be 8 wins and based on last year (1st year with 18 teams) will see us about 13th. For those of you contemplating finals we will need at least 12 to 13 wins.....To do that we will need some pretty good wins. I reckon 9 wins which will put us 12-13th. And hopefully we play better football this year!

I read that about Moloney as well but as they say proof will be in the pudding. He would train well with us and run around with arms flailing but come game time he constantly went missing. He was voted out of the leadership group - sulk - he wouldnt/couldnt buy into Neelds game requirements - sulk. As I have said previously for someone who was obviously looking for a new Club his last performance/attitude at Casey was abysmal and frankly I was embarrassed for him. We sent him off well at the B&F. He got a rousing reception. I watched the Bulldogs Round 4 game on Foxtel this weekend and there were glimpses of the old Moloney. It is sad when a player who was a lifelong supporter of the Club leaves under such a cloud but if the reports are true then it will be a win win situation. As far as Rivers he has given a massive part of his career to the Club and played well albeit in a different position. There was no sulking when he was played out of his normal position. I can only wish him well with his goal to play in a premiership team. I havent heard Cols interview but to me actions will speak louder than words with him. For years we have all held such high hopes for him and I know in the last two years there have been preseason injuries and incidents but it is what he has done or not done on the field. He obviously has such high skill levels even match winning skills but he doesnt produce them consistently whether during the game or in a number of games. Neeld will be great for him. Maybe for years under Bailey etc he got by on what the Club thought he could produce. Under Neeld and Misson there are no preconceived ideas as to the level of his ability. It is time to put up or get out and hopefully Col is now ready to put up.

1 Hawthorne 2 Adelaide 3 Sydney 4 Collingwood 5 Freo 6 West Coast 7 Geelong 8 North Melbourne 9 Carlton 10 Saints 11 Bombers 12 Tigers 13 Brisbane 14 Bulldogs 15 Dees 16 Port 17 Gold Coast 18 GWS

Best fruit - bananas.

it's the first and second i am talking about. By the 3rd strike it is the detox clinic in carlisle st. That is what [censored] me. Chris Mainwarring says hello.

Until this "new"list plays 2-3 games you just cannot tell. We could "click" and smash the Richmond media darlings. I said could.

Agree with you PJ

I think about 11th or 12th would be fantastic, but after observing the videos of the training camp in the NT I can't help feeling a little excited and thinking that 8th might not be beyond the boys next season...

8th, Optimistic yes but Ive got $100 on it

out in the dessert do you mean?

6th.

The reason Carlton forward rate 2nd is they have forwards that have high averages in supercoach scores. Can you believe Schoenmaker has a higher supercoach average than Glass,Scarlett and Luke Mcpharlin last year. This is why, we shouldn't rate this list.

You guys are really puerile. I cant believe a thread on Demonland has sunk so low as to objectify women like that . Personally ,I like women of substance like they have at Fairfax media . Gina ,Caroline and Michelle.

demons-650.jpg Caro will be right onto this on Monday - the final piece of incontrovertible evidence in her jigsaw puzzle

I frickin' LOVE Lynden Dunn. He's a legend. His body looks like a killing machine this year, I hope he can cement a spot in the side.

Fancy a game of golf, Mr. Shankar.

Yes Ravi-very sad to see you go so young. I will take care of Norah for you.

He worked for a living and probably thinks they are all a bunch of self obsessed dicks . I hope he learns to kick and becomes a regular . Otherwise cancel his visa.

This is a photo of a Demonland Admin committee meeting: L-R: Nasher, Andy, Whispering Jack & Finks

How did Carlton get the 2nd-best forward line rating? They've got Garlett and Betts, plus Waite for a few games a year.

Just watched the footage. I love Jack Hannath. Devastated he's not a Demon. I also love Mark Neeld. Absolutely stoked he's a Demon.

It's so nice having players actually want to come to our club, and being disappointed having to go elsewhere. Great to see the team actually becoming a TEAM. Good luck to Jack; maybe he'll be a Demon at some point down the road.

The thing that upsets me is that we basically got nothing for the whole lot.

It took me a few seconds but I and many others are with you on that.

the levels of drug abuse in Amsterdam are lower than in Australia, even tho it is legal. Freedom is one hell of a drug!

Having worked at "the coalface" for many years I have seen the "cold hard face" of drug use - both licit and illicit - and I can still construct a sentence I'm also well aware of what a 'scoob' is - my reference was to a claim by a poster that their children had never used drugs - but had a 'couple of beers now and then but no drugs'. In my time in the sector I have seen many people use illicit drugs and live productive and (otherwise) law abiding lives. I have also seen young people's futures ruined by drugs - the blame is not always a result of the psychotropic effect of the drugs but the proscription of them. The point you make about medicinal cannabis is pertinent - the country that professes to be tougher than any other on drugs (apart from Singapore and Sweden perhaps) also has the most prescriptions for cannabis written by medical practitioners. Go figure! I can grow and process cannabis and opium in my backyard. They are, after all, weeds in the wild. The Tasmanian 'terroir' is perfect for their cultivation. ... but I don't have the science to produce 'measured doses' - that requires willing guinea pigs of which there is no shortage. Hardly a scientific approach but effective for some. Perhaps that's what the authorities want! I can't think of any other reason to explain the madness of continuing a failed response.

and we all know that beer is not a drug

You can hardly do that for ciggies now - let alone grog. Alarmist comments like this don't add credibility to your argument, they merely serve to underline the fact that your mind is closed to thinking about alternatives. I have always acknowledged the potential harms associated with substance use of any kind - but each individual is impacted differently. That's the science of pharmacology not the moral perspective. Far from only seeing one side of the debate. The trouble with supporters of the status quo is they can only see things in terms of an apocalyptic, misanthropic future - again emphasising their lack of faith in humanity and thinking everybody would go out and get sh!tfaced if we tried an alternative approach. Show me indisputable evidence of where the war on drugs has proven successful and upheld human rights at the same time. Milton Friedman and George Soros are hardly considered radical bleeding hearts but both agree that the war on drugs is futile. What's so scary about trying an alternative to an approach widely acknowledged as a failure?

I've never told my old man I inhaled the odd scoob either.

The notion that if we regulated drugs we would see a contemporaneous rise in drug use always fascinates me. For me such a view shows very little faith in human nature. I believe most people don't want to be high all the time - many might like to have the choice to consume whatever quality controlled substance suited the moment, but would otherwise carry on living, working and (hopefully) learning as they went about their lives seeking some form of contentment and balance. Continuing to support a policy response that has failed to deliver benefits (prohibition) is a failure to apply logic to policy development, implementation and evaluation processes. From an economic rationalist perspective it makes no sense to continue to invest in such folly. Or does it? RJ - why we continue to slavishly follow the orthodoxy of abstinence in an age of hyper-consumption is a good question. Work by Nils Christie and Sam Friedman about drugs being a "suitable enemy" for those in power partly explains it for me - but what I can't figure out is how people haven't wised up to this. Perhaps we really are stupid and need strong moral leadership from government and religion after all! As for US influence on global drug policy, that would take too long to go into here. One thing I do know as fact is, when the ACT Government proposed a clinical trial of heroin maintenance for people who had failed on available treatment programs, US interests actively lobbied the Tasmanian Government and let them know that such a program would place the State's lucrative poppy industry at risk. Sadly a 17 yo Tasmanian male died from consuming an extract from this crop a week or so ago. As a parent of a child about the same age it made me wonder if a regulated dose may not have proven fatal. Unfortunately drugs can bring out the worst in people - both the users and the abstainers - moral and political factors have so far outweighed a rational approach to the issue. Many people use a variety of drugs without problems - but every weekend in any city large amounts of money pass into the hands of criminals. This makes no sense to me. People that do experience problems from using substances need to be treated as having a health problem, not a morally framed criminal one. The war on drugs is over - drugs won.

Robbie , Whilst you grew up in a monoculture ,which is fine , I grew up in the inner city. People did all kinds of things and they still do . There is no acceptance or majority/minority stance to be had on the issue. Drugs are the second biggest industry in the world ,behind arms sales. They are a fact of life and have been for thousands of years. I'm not brainwashed into thinking it's ok or promoting drugs. I dont think anyone is .

A form of regulation as we see with alcohol and tobacco makes sense - unfortunately our political leaders lack the moral fibre to even suggest such a courageous departure from the current orthodoxy and, instead, seek to be seen as tougher on drugs than their political rivals. This is an example of policy-based evidence as opposed to evidence-based policy - sadly all too common these days. My work and study has exposed me to best and worst practice responses in this field - political posturing means we see more of the latter. A new player in the field is the "new recovery" movement that is gaining political traction but is really just more of the same old abstinence model. "Recovering from what?" is the question being asked of this approach by experts who acknowledge people will always experiment with some form of psychostimulant. Ice and other amphetamine type stimulants (ATS) pose challenges that some of the leading experts in treatment and harm reduction fields admit they are struggling with. Getting clinical trials approved for ATS replacement pharmacotherapies is a challenge in itself, and there is a lot of work to be done to develop effective responses to these type of drugs. All the experts I have worked with and met over many years admit we need to change the way we deal with drugs (pun intended) but until we acknowledge that prohibition has failed we cannot begin to think of a rational, evidence-based alternative. There are some sensible alternative models developed by some very smart people - and isolated cases such as Portugal have shown there is another way. As for the cannabis gateway theory - most Australian kids who have tried cannabis have probably also tried Vegemite. Let's ban Vegemite too.

Drugs should be legalized and fully regulated so that sales and users can be monitored. It is the only way the problem can be managed.

Spot on Biff. The real travesty isn't upsetting someones sunday breakfast, or some sponsor. It's the hardship people go thru that causes them to need an alternate state of mind just to get thru the day. What are we creating in our western world. a stress circus merry go round that j8ust keeps on spinning faster til most have been flung off, with some just hanging on by they're finger tips. What is this crap? Go back to the 60's -70's, before its too late. Some people are addicted to drugs, some are addicted to adrenaline, some are addicts of power & control, & some aren't very honest about it all to themselves.

I like your posts Tas.Some of the conservative suff here is so Hackneyed and ridiculous. "They start with pot and then progress onto harder stuff etc." I know there are some sad stories with persian rugs and I have known many people who've died from their over-use or related illnesses. To assume that a few guy who plays AFL footy and snort coke/ smoke pot constitute "a problem" is ridiculous . It's a problem when it destroys someones entire life ,family etc of course but the greatest cause of this in our society BY FAR is alcohol. The AFL will never attack the alcohol lobby and were reluctant to have to give up the ciggy dollar too. You cannot stop people drinking,ingesting,smoking ,snorting etc. You cannot stop teams"experimenting" for draft picks. You cannot stop Caros agenda driving Adrian and Andy into "action".

DO you know why player resort to drugs to feel good. Its because they get thrashed on the track all summer. Go to battle everyweekend. Get scrutinised at every fault, and are treated like robots or even worse, cattle. Drugs offer an escape and good feelings. Its hardly a surprise that players do it. And often, it is the hardest, toughest players that get on it. The human condition is not designed to play football at this level. For most players, they have been thrashed or been thrashing themselves since the age of 14. Drugs offer an easy way to feel human again, and not a blood thirsty warrior. I do not condone the use of drugs, but I would not condem a man for indulging. For some, it is just like having a drink. Go easy on blokes, especially 18 year olds like Garlett.

Jerremy Howe