Four top-15 picks in two seasons.

Only taking fringe and opportunistic mature players on very low money in trades, and filling out our list with speculative VFL tone-setters and role players who take no salary cap space.

Relying on kids as our forward targets as we get games into them.

And people think we aren't already in a rebuild?

I'm sure the club's goal was to stay continuously competitive and have the veterans and new wave overlap enough to create a super-peak capable of grabbing another premiership, but right now, with several veterans below their par, some visible low morale, and an unfortunate string of quality outs among the kids, it isn't looking like it at all.

Best case scenario, all the problem points are corrected over the course of the season and we come storming home into finals.

Worst case scenario, we are absolutely pooooooooped. Like, adding an 8th form to the Birstol stool chart, pooped.

If we’re going the rebuild route, then it MUST start at the end of this season, as next year we’ll have the Tassie team scooping the pool. Trac and Kozzie are the obvious trades and should net us at least 3 first rounders and a second rounder between them. I agree with BDR in that we should keep Fritsch, but a real conundrum is, what do we do about the likes of Sestan, JVR, Jefferson, Adams, Fullerton etc?…I’ll probably be accused of blasphemy, but, if JVR doesn't show anything this year, then does he get traded while he has some currency?

On current form, we’re likely to finish in the bottom four, so we’ll have good picks for, hopefully, picking up a couple of decent mature age draftees in the second and third rounds; of course, a lot of how we can use our picks will be dependent on where White is rated, assuming he is our F/S pick.

Edited March 30Mar 30 by hardtack

7 minutes ago, BoBo said:

He has work to do absolutely. I think there’s a lot of potential there is all. Played 43 games, kicked 60 goals, averaging 1.40 goals a game. Which is pretty good considering he’s played ruck/up the ground too. He absolutely needs proper coaching like you say.

Fair call about Fritsch. Although Van Rooyen is currently 27 more goals than Fritsch after the first 43 games. Van Rooyen on 60 goals whilst Fritsch was 33 goals.

Different types of players but bombing the ball on top of the heads of our forwards can & does effect the productivity of any of our forwards

So if JVR gets off the hook then so should Fritsch. But right now, neither player is winning enough of their own ball anyway

If anything, the connection between our mids and forwards is actually getting worse. It's a dogs breakfast

A clean out/revamp/do-over ... take your pick, we've been left behind from the modern trends

Fast ball movement forward with exquisite foot and hand skills is what is required and we are miles away from achieving that

And the fumbling!!! We'd be winning that stat, BoBo!

12 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Tbh... it's always been my experience ( arguably.. just going on that lol ) that a good , better than good, forward just knows where to be. They've built up their footy Intel over years of playing forward. It's actually very hard to teach the nuances and subtleties. You can teach the theory but it needs a player who can read the game, the flight of the ball and likely outcomes.... all in that 'eternity' of time called ...seconds !!

Some can , others never will.

I'm not sure about JVR tbh as he's all very bang crash for mine.

JVR might be best suited as a tall, high-half forward type

I don't see him as a deep key position forward as because that position is only reserved for the exceptionally good in today's footy, JVR just doesn't have the hands or the nouse (right now at least)

But the slow delivery forward and long bombs forward has stifled the development of all our marking forwards anyway

For instance, Ben Brown was reduced to spoiling the ball towards the end of his career (as a result of the constant bombing)

And Brown was a lead-up marking type when at his best. But lead-up marking in our forward line? Does it ever happen?

8 hours ago, demon3165 said:

You cannot play quick ball movement all day with a one-paced midfield; full stop. They are good against a team that plays similarly, but the game started to change from the 2022, and we kept playing the same way. Now our lack of run, skills, and decision-making has come back to bite us badly. Yes, we will improve, but not to the extent needed to match the top teams.

Viney is too slow and, like Oliver, was shown up when there is no congestion in packs. Once the ball is moved quickly, he is out of the contest with ease. Max, unfortunately, cannot jump at center bounces, and opposing teams will now just jump into him, making it harder for him to provide the first opportunity to give it off to someone.

The game plan is something else; because of the lack of quick movement and skills, everyone is around the ball creating packs and contests. However, when the ball is moved to the outside by the opposition and transferred, it opens us up and allows them scoring opportunities much easier than we can. All our forwards are that far up the ground when we do get it, so all you see are 2-3 backmen alone forming a wall across the half-back line and picking us off.

You cannot delist everyone, but Trac and Kossie should be kept. Oliver should either be traded or have his role recreated. Viney, who has been a loyal soldier, cannot keep playing in the midfield if he struggles to contribute against runing sides, Sparrow is in no man's land, but the worse thing is the inability to hit targets by hand or foot is staggering and does not help the cause at all. It's going to be an interesting year.

Trac and koz are the only players we have with trade value that aren’t kids, koz is gone in next few years alway so best to move him on now and get the more years into what ever kids we draft as a result, as to trac he will be 30 by the end of this year and what the point of having him run round for the next 3-4 years while we are down the bottom of the ladder when we could be get another few kids and games into them. Between Pickett and trac we should be able to get 4 picks in round 1 add them to the 4 first round picks in the last 2 years and you have nucleus of our next team to contend. Players like Gawn Viney lever, Langdon and Oliver will be there to see the next generation through.

According to this and other recent threads, my understanding is that many Demonlanders are advocating:

OUT: Bathwater

ALSO OUT: The Baby

18 minutes ago, Macca said:

Different types of players but bombing the ball on top of the heads of our forwards can & does effect the productivity of any of our forwards

So if JVR gets off the hook then so should Fritsch. But right now, neither player is winning enough of their own ball anyway

If anything, the connection between our mids and forwards is actually getting worse. It's a dogs breakfast

A clean out/revamp/do-over ... take your pick, we've been left behind from the modern trends

Fast ball movement forward with exquisite foot and hand skills is what is required and we are miles away from achieving that

And the fumbling!!! We'd be winning that stat, BoBo!

Yep, fair call with delivery and Fritsch.

And yes, the connection is an almighty [censored] show. The fumbling part is so concerning. Deer in the headlight stuff.

2 minutes ago, Demonstone said:

According to this and other recent threads, my understanding is that many Demonlanders are advocating:

OUT: Bathwater

ALSO OUT: The Baby

What can we get for the bath tub also?

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Lost jordon ANB Bedord baker

All getting regular games with others

All hard workers

Never understood the strategy

Watching Baker and Harmes play hard and commited on Friday for the Doggies, they would be good additions to our current list.

I don’t think trading out our best players is the answer. Keep drafting, chop the deadwood, get a new coach. Trading JVR, Rivers, McVee is going backwards. A new coach will want the best players secured. The chances of trading Petracca or Oliver or both is pretty slim in my book. Viney isn’t the issue the lack of cohesion is the problem

1 minute ago, BoBo said:

Yep, fair call with delivery and Fritsch.

And yes, the connection is an almighty [censored] show. The fumbling part is so concerning. Deer in the headlight stuff.

There are shades of 2012/2013 right now but it's only shades of. The coach copping all the blame with the players being unable to think for themselves. Sound familiar?

Back then our list was devoid of talent where as in the present day we've got loads of good players (playing an outdated style)

Ball movement slow and via the cape. Constant fumbling. Working for stoppages mainly along the boundary line. A refusal to use the corridor etc etc

You'd love to be a fly on the wall for the team meetings. What is being said and if we are trying to change our style, what is it?

@waynewussell made mention about how we trained in the pre-season with fast ball movement criss-crossing at angles heading into the forward line

So where is it? Is it a muscle-memory issue with our players? No buy-in?

7 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

I don’t think trading out our best players is the answer. Keep drafting, chop the deadwood, get a new coach. Trading JVR, Rivers, McVee is going backwards. A new coach will want the best players secured. The chances of trading Petracca or Oliver or both is pretty slim in my book. Viney isn’t the issue the lack of cohesion is the problem

I'm not sure anyone here wants to trade McVee (was that a typo, Roost it?)

But we can't lay all the blame at the feet of Goodwin. So if it's the players and the coach then we'll need some sort of clean-out

And that means revamping the list in my view

There's a good chance that we can trade aggressively and improve the list

But to do that you have to give up a bit

For me it's always about the team ... individuals come 2nd

1 hour ago, layzie said:

The idea by many that Petracca will be going to Collingwood and only Collingwood is very confusing to me. With 4 years left on his deal we're more or less in the same position as last year in terms of leverage. So if he has a decent year and requests a trade we a) deny the request, or b) if leaving the club is in his best interests, we listen to offers from all clubs and sell to the highest bidder. That's pretty much how it goes and unless Collingwood have a better draft hand this year, then I'd say other clubs would be more likely destinations.

From the Pies point of view, they do have some decent cap space but Nick Daicos's monster deal kicks in 2026. Personally I think there are some up and comers there that could command a bit of money so I'm undecided if Trac is the big fish they should go for. As things stand they don't have a pick till the 3rd round either.

I don't get how he could even entertain the prospect.

I mean let's give darcy moore or less the doubt and call his knee in Traccas back a complete accident that only just nearly killed him ( ummmmm yea) then what about his partner in crimes that nearly killed Gus? And I don't believe that one was.

Anywho, it must be an offer of huge Buckley's.

Loyalty doesn't come cheap these days.

But sure we must then play hardball with players contracts ( a legally binding and enforceable agreement,) if they want to leave. I get players have to do right by themselves and loved ones in a short term career that takes a significant toll later on in life ( some not so late,) but at the end of the day honor and commitment must mean something in this game.

No loyalty ultimately means that all of us here go and start following the hawks because they are presently on top of the ladder and or Carlton because they have better TV time slots or whatever for that matter.

I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe I've been a fool following this club when players don't even stick around. Why should I if they don't. And if course nobody is holding the proverbial gun to my head but if we all just jumped ship when they start to sink or even just aimlessly float about, then what's the point?

I mean isn't loyalty the bedrock of this game that ties everything together,? Starting with us humble supporters.

I think after decades and decades of support of the Mfc, financially and emotionally I feel that if I do it,then so should most the players.

I'm at the point now, that I feel if players don't want to play for this great club, they can just rack off. They have been well looked after, stop whining. Clean your locker out and don't even think about coming back. Your not welcome. ( Except you Jesse Hogan) 😊.

5 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

I don't get how he could even entertain the prospect.

I mean let's give darcy moore or less the doubt and call his knee in Traccas back a complete accident that only just nearly killed him ( ummmmm yea) then what about his partner in crimes that nearly killed Gus? And I don't believe that one was.

Anywho, it must be an offer of huge Buckley's.

Loyalty doesn't come cheap these days.

But sure we must then play hardball with players contracts ( a legally binding and enforceable agreement,) if they want to leave. I get players have to do right by themselves and loved ones in a short term career that takes a significant toll later on in life ( some not so late,) but at the end of the day honor and commitment must mean something in this game.

No loyalty ultimately means that all of us here go and start following the hawks because they are presently on top of the ladder and or Carlton because they have better TV time slots or whatever for that matter.

I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe I've been a fool following this club when players don't even stick around. Why should I if they don't. And if course nobody is holding the proverbial gun to my head but if we all just jumped ship when they start to sink or even just aimlessly float about, then what's the point?

I mean isn't loyalty the bedrock of this game that ties everything together,? Starting with us humble supporters.

I think after decades and decades of support of the Mfc, financially and emotionally I feel that if I do it,then so should most the players.

I'm at the point now, that I feel if players don't want to play for this great club, they can just rack off. They have been well looked after, stop whining. Clean your locker out and don't even think about coming back. Your not welcome. ( Except you Jesse Hogan) 😊.

Many jumped ship to the Hawks in the 70-80 I assume. Once the decline of the MFC started and the ascendency of the Hawks started.

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Yeah I wouldn't be giving up on JVR (unless we got a really good offer)

He's still playing like a 1st or 2nd year player and I'd be pushing him up into the play as a CHF type with a license to roam (a bit like how T-Mac used to play as a forward)

Create a bit of space for himself

But in the meantime, some specialist coaching wouldn't go astray

Yes. And it’s a shame players can’t use initiative in improving and get on the phone to someone like David Neitz for a footy chat.

As a long time supporter I can cope with a rebuild but to make it work we either need a fit and firing Oliver, Trac and Kossie or 4-5 top picks in their place

We have started already. Six new players so far this year.

Sadly May looked slow and uninterested against GC. Maxie gets beaten up each week because he wants to prove who is strongest - should show who is more mobile and can leap higher.

Once again I say move Fritsch to FF and, new twist, move JVR to CHF where he can lead and run at the contest instead of always having to compete with a crowd.

Maxie's comment today in the paper than GC had figured us out in the centre square is telling. Goody's time might be coming to an end. We were losing heavily in centre square last year without Trac and with Clarry only half fit - this year is worse with both supposedly fully fit. Time for major rethink. Watching Clarry push and shove with Rowell was silly - he should be a free agent and not have to worry about being marked.

At times there seemed to be a shortage of bodies at the contest. What style of game are we playing?

GO DEES

Frustratingly we have an injury list that is heavy on <22's.

Windsor, Tholstrup, McVee, Jefferson, Lindsay... all should be playing when they're fit in 3-4 weeks time.

25 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Many jumped ship to the Hawks in the 70-80 I assume. Once the decline of the MFC started and the ascendency of the Hawks started.

Just to be clear my evil looking friend, that vomit emoji was a reference to the forks and not your post.

It's misleading at times ( the emoji that is).

2 minutes ago, 48 Year Now said:

Yes. And it’s a shame players can’t use initiative in improving and get on the phone to someone like David Neitz for a footy chat.

JVR might be getting specialist coaching for all we know, but it would be nice to see how he'd go in an open forward line (which I'm not sure he's ever seen as our forward line has remained crowded since the start of the 2022 season)

We've got a lot of work to do in order to contend again ... and just sacking the coach isn't going to fix things (IMV)

Lots of issues and a lot of those issues can only be achieved at the trade table (Leg speed, foot and hand skills, KPF's, KPB?, Max Replacement, Marking power, Goal kicking power etc etc)

Our strength is our backline & midfield quality and depth. In fact, those 2 areas very nearly won us 2 finals in 2023 (our forward line was almost completely decimated by injury in 2023)

The big watch is on Petracca & Oliver. At various times both have been top 10 in the league. If we see that again then why would we trade them?

Edited March 30Mar 30 by Macca

1 hour ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Watching Baker and Harmes play hard and commited on Friday for the Doggies, they would be good additions to our current list.

So Baker plays his first ever decent game for the Doggies and Harmes produces his usual one good game in every ten and Captain Hindsight laments that we let them go.

If we'd kept them, no doubt you'd be whinging about us retaining NQR list cloggers. Can't have it both ways, mate.

1 hour ago, Roost it far said:

I don’t think trading out our best players is the answer. Keep drafting, chop the deadwood, get a new coach. Trading JVR, Rivers, McVee is going backwards. A new coach will want the best players secured. The chances of trading Petracca or Oliver or both is pretty slim in my book. Viney isn’t the issue the lack of cohesion is the problem

Exactly, you would think the supporters didn't learn anything from the 2007-2013 era

11 minutes ago, Macca said:

There are shades of 2012/2013 right now but it's only shades of. The coach copping all the blame with the players being unable to think for themselves. Sound familiar?

Back then our list was devoid of talent where as in the present day we've got loads of good players (playing an outdated style)

Ball movement slow and via the cape. Constant fumbling. Working for stoppages mainly along the boundary line. A refusal to use the corridor etc etc

You'd love to be a fly on the wall for the team meetings. What is being said and if we are trying to change our style, what is it?

@waynewussell made mention about how we trained in the pre-season with fast ball movement criss-crossing at angles heading into the forward line

So where is it? Is it a muscle-memory issue with our players? No buy-in?

I guess when you think about how we’ve played over the years, going for percentages, down the line, create and win a stoppage.

Not a lot of disposal execution needed especially by foot nor was there the need to have really wide and open vision through the corridor or creative/risky kicking. It was all very safe, controlled and urgency wasn’t a high priority.

We’re now (apparently????) asking players to move the ball quickly by foot, probably above the skill level to what’s on the park through the middle (we will be better with Mcvee, Windsor). So maybe, they’re thinking more about what they’re going to do AFTER they get the ball… not thinking about GETTING the ball.

It’s the only way I can put it, they don’t look ‘present’ on the field and it’s affecting their decisions. Kinda how when batsmen are trying to fix a technical issue, they can end up focussing so much on that issue, that they forget to just watch the ball onto the bat when playing a match.

And it’s difficult to see what the game plan changes are, because we can’t execute basic skills right now, haha.

A whole bunch of players look miles inside their own heads.

1 hour ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Watching Baker and Harmes play hard and commited on Friday for the Doggies, they would be good additions to our current list.

Both good club servants and I wish them well but let’s Calma a little.

I haven't read this whole thread so please update me if its been covered. But, if we were going to go into a rebuild through the draft in 25 then we have to know its supposed to be a weak draft. So I just can't see the value in it. We've got some great young kids...I say lets lets top up not sell the farm for this. Not this year and not next re Tasmania. Oliver and Trac may well improve as this year goes on. The game plan on the other hand...thats another thing.