1 hour ago, Hellfire Dub said:

Many of our important players don't believe in him.  Nibbler left.  Clarry almost left.  Trac wants to.  Kozzy wants to leave.   I reckon Fritsch is sick of being there.  They're just some of the ones we know about.  

Nibs left because he and in particular his partner needed to be close to their family for personal reasons. 
Nothing to do with Goody.

Clarrie didn’t want to leave but met with Geelong when he heard that one person (who’s no longer at our club) was enquiring about a trade to Adelaide.
Again, nothing to do with Goody.

Tracc may have wanted to go at some stage, and If he did it was reportedly to be part of a bigger club and/or because of the mismanagement of his KB injury. 
Yet again, nothing to do with Goody.

Kozzy wants to leave? If he did want to leave the reason would be homesickness as has been reported ad nauseam.
Yep, you guessed it: nothing to do with Goody.

Fritsch is sick of being there? In short… No, he’s not. Not only is he not sick of being there, he loves being there and doesn’t wanna be anywhere else. 
Nothing to do with Goody, nothing to do with anybody actually since it’s simply untrue. 

1 hour ago, Go Ds said:

Which given them being closer to 2021 were even more pathetic! It's such a big deal to get rid of a coach. You muck it up and you can put your team back 5 years! Goodwin's proved he can coach and the players love him. He's not untouchable but if we still have the cattle and they still believe in him a sacking will waste what we have.

If we don't win games the rest is moot

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If we don't win games the rest is moot

If we keep losing he will lose the players. I haven't contradicted this. If the players know they've given their all and bad luck isn't to blame eventually they'll turn.  Conversely if they know it was them who ****ed up today and from here start performing satisfactorily then your comment is moot.

4 hours ago, Sideshow Bob said:

It's more than Goodwin - it's the whole coaching team. Not sure exactly how or what or who - but the set ups were wrong, the lack of spread, the decision making especially going into f50 , the disposal skills. Its broken 

Goodwin in his presser, on not taking advantage of the 3rd quarter forward entry dominance: 'We got straight-line bomby; not the way we train'.

So, either the do train that way, and the players are responsible for its mis/application; OR Goodwin is wrong about the fact and/or effectiveness of the training. Poll?

6 minutes ago, Go Ds said:

If we keep losing he will lose the players. I haven't contradicted this. If the players know they've given their all and bad luck isn't to blame eventually they'll turn.  Conversely if they know it was them who ****ed up today and from here start performing satisfactorily then your comment is moot.

How do we assess 'given their all' today and where it is relative to such a tipping point? Regardless of how much we are amazed at our players' energy and efforts, Viney, in his interview, was at some length suggesting he hadn't, then went on to suspect others had been in the same boat. And, despite the 'everybody has problems' argument, Goodwin's choice (risky?...) to mention Gawn's 'life beyond football', and the caring way and length he spoke about it, suggest it was particularly significant for Max's temperament. So Max, too, I think, would not think today was a 'gave-my-all' step to the tipping point.

7 minutes ago, Timothy Reddan-A'Blew said:

How do we assess 'given their all' today and where it is relative to such a tipping point? Regardless of how much we are amazed at our players' energy and efforts, Viney, in his interview, was at some length suggesting he hadn't, then went on to suspect others had been in the same boat. And, despite the 'everybody has problems' argument, Goodwin's choice (risky?...) to mention Gawn's 'life beyond football', and the caring way and length he spoke about it, suggest it was particularly significant for Max's temperament. So Max, too, I think, would not think today was a 'gave-my-all' step to the tipping point.

Umm, we probably won't. It's for the players to know and also if they're not happy with Goody. You're saying they didn't give their all? I suspect they didn't either. But do we know? Really all I'm getting at is that it'll be disastrous if they sack Goody this week IF the players still want him. Honestly sacked or not it could be that we get to 7-6 but in one of the scenarios by  listening to the kneejerk reactions of supporters online we've consigned ourselves to losing 3 more games in each of the next 5 years. (Nominating coaches here right now is ludicrous.)

7 minutes ago, Go Ds said:

Umm, we probably won't. It's for the players to know and also if they're not happy with Goody. You're saying they didn't give their all? I suspect they didn't either. But do we know? Really all I'm getting at is that it'll be disastrous if they sack Goody this week IF the players still want him. Honestly sacked or not it could be that we get to 7-6 but in one of the scenarios by  listening to the kneejerk reactions of supporters online we've consigned ourselves to losing 3 more games in each of the next 5 years. (Nominating coaches here right now is ludicrous.)

Thanks, GD. All I was getting at was that it was possible (likely?) that today, at least, wouldn't have advanced the players to a 'they'll turn' tipping point.

7 minutes ago, Timothy Reddan-A'Blew said:

Thanks, GD. All I was getting at was that it was possible (likely?) that today, at least, wouldn't have advanced the players to a 'they'll turn' tipping point.

Probably not. Sometimes teams just believe they'll beat a supposedly lesser team and have the wrong attitude. It's too simplistic to just forgive Melbourne today - they'd already lost their only game and it was never going to be a  shock that a team with a brilliant coach and full of high draft picks would improve with another pre-season under their belt - and such a capitulation in the 4th quarter was not regulation-disgraceful. But we really don't know what today means medium to long term.

1 hour ago, Go Ds said:

If we keep losing he will lose the players. I haven't contradicted this. If the players know they've given their all and bad luck isn't to blame eventually they'll turn.  Conversely if they know it was them who ****ed up today and from here start performing satisfactorily then your comment is moot.

He lost the players last year. We finished 14th and we are bottom 4 ATM.

1 minute ago, WERRIDEE said:

He lost the players last year. We finished 14th and we are bottom 4 ATM.

I disagree he has lost the players. He (and the rest of this forum) is asking the players to play to a game plan they are simply not capable of at AFL level consistency. 

Bowey kicks through the centre to avoid down the line 'boredom'. Turnover goal.  Woewodin asks for a handpass through the centre to avoid down the  line "boredom' . Turnover goal.  Langdon switches to avoid down the line 'boredom" . Turnover goal.  Amd when we are going through the centre, Viney, Oliver and Sparrow are bombing it to Norf's spare.   What did supporters expect. The list was built for contest and defence not skills and transition.  Some weeks it will work. Some weeks we will get slaughtered. Welcome to the 2025 season. 

1 hour ago, Ghostwriter said:

Nibs left because he and in particular his partner needed to be close to their family for personal reasons. 
Nothing to do with Goody.

Clarrie didn’t want to leave but met with Geelong when he heard that one person (who’s no longer at our club) was enquiring about a trade to Adelaide.
Again, nothing to do with Goody.

Tracc may have wanted to go at some stage, and If he did it was reportedly to be part of a bigger club and/or because of the mismanagement of his KB injury. 
Yet again, nothing to do with Goody.

Kozzy wants to leave? If he did want to leave the reason would be homesickness as has been reported ad nauseam.
Yep, you guessed it: nothing to do with Goody.

Fritsch is sick of being there? In short… No, he’s not. Not only is he not sick of being there, he loves being there and doesn’t wanna be anywhere else. 
Nothing to do with Goody, nothing to do with anybody actually since it’s simply untrue. 

The way the leaders of the playing group performed today speaks louder than anything we can say here.

If they love their coach son much you'd think the effort and commitment would be always there.

I am not affirming what Hellfire posted but you can't but wonder how committed the players are with their coach.

It’s just the end of Round 2 only … too early to panic !!! 

A more attacking gameplan which can often occupy much of the corridor requires players that are highly skilled and players who don't fumble ... otherwise the ball gets turned over in dangerous areas

So, can we do that with the current crop of players?  Or do we need players such as Windsor, Kolt, Langford & Lindsay to fill those roles when they become more experienced? 

I can't see why Oliver, Petracca, Viney, Rivers, Sparrow, Langdon, McVee, Salem, Pickett and Chandler can't do it now.  There's so much talent amongst that crew of 10 players

To connect with ... JVR,  Fritsch,  Melk,  Petracca/Kozzie,  Chandler (and Turner, Jeffo or AJ)

Is it that hard to reprogram our players?

6 hours ago, Ghostwriter said:

Nibs left because he and in particular his partner needed to be close to their family for personal reasons. 
Nothing to do with Goody.

Clarrie didn’t want to leave but met with Geelong when he heard that one person (who’s no longer at our club) was enquiring about a trade to Adelaide.
Again, nothing to do with Goody.

Tracc may have wanted to go at some stage, and If he did it was reportedly to be part of a bigger club and/or because of the mismanagement of his KB injury. 
Yet again, nothing to do with Goody.

Kozzy wants to leave? If he did want to leave the reason would be homesickness as has been reported ad nauseam.
Yep, you guessed it: nothing to do with Goody.

Fritsch is sick of being there? In short… No, he’s not. Not only is he not sick of being there, he loves being there and doesn’t wanna be anywhere else. 
Nothing to do with Goody, nothing to do with anybody actually since it’s simply untrue. 

With respect, you know as little as anyone on here. In fact, I'd say there are a few on here who actually do have connections to players, partners/families etc. To think that you are privy to what the players actually think of Goody just because you attend training is borderline delusional.

I think it's fairly obvious from that performance yesterday and the rumblings of last year that Goody's messaging to the players isn't exactly sticking. Whether they like him or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether or not the players believe in the messaging. And to me, the feeling is the players aren't entirely onboard. 

Goodwins game plan is outdated and if we are meant to not bomb it long (doubt it) then the players aren’t listening to the coaches, so it’s either a shizen boring game plan or the players don’t care to play to his game plan. And nothing I have seen over the season so far inc Praco matches leads me to believe that we are not a slow chip kick, long down the boundary line team, then blast it long to the pocket in the f50. 
 

So which is it? Players ignoring the game plan? Or Goodwin is lying about the game plan? 
Either way is bad, either way leads to a horrible spectacle for people to sit through.

5 hours ago, Jjrogan said:

I disagree he has lost the players. He (and the rest of this forum) is asking the players to play to a game plan they are simply not capable of at AFL level consistency. 

Bowey kicks through the centre to avoid down the line 'boredom'. Turnover goal.  Woewodin asks for a handpass through the centre to avoid down the  line "boredom' . Turnover goal.  Langdon switches to avoid down the line 'boredom" . Turnover goal.  Amd when we are going through the centre, Viney, Oliver and Sparrow are bombing it to Norf's spare.   What did supporters expect. The list was built for contest and defence not skills and transition.  Some weeks it will work. Some weeks we will get slaughtered. Welcome to the 2025 season. 

Very well said. 

I have no idea really if Goodwin is part of the problem or not. But what I can judge with my own eyes is that we don't have the team the modern game requires, and we haven't since they introduced the stand rule and 666. 

I think it's unlikely that his relationship with the players has deteriorated. I've seen nothing to suggest that is the case.

The thing is it doesn't really matter if the players love him. His job is results driven and if he can't get the players to perform and can't resolve the issues with the gameplan then he will have to go.

10 hours ago, Demon Disciple said:

It’s also the players. The way they simply hoisted the white flag in the second half was inexcusable.

All this talk during the off-season about caring for one-another. Here’s an idea, how about holding each other to account? After today’s performance, many need to be asked the question of if their heart is truly in it. The way they performed today indicates that they’re not willing to put in the effort required when the going gets tough.

Im not expecting us to win every game, but I want to at least see effort and desire. Saw none of it today from either the playing group as a whole, or from the coaches box.

This.

The game was slipping away as it was, 3 goals down at 3QT and we started the 4th quarter by giving up 4 straight centre clearances for goals. We wilted to a team that wanted it more and it was really disheartening.

5 hours ago, Jjrogan said:

I disagree he has lost the players. He (and the rest of this forum) is asking the players to play to a game plan they are simply not capable of at AFL level consistency. 

Bowey kicks through the centre to avoid down the line 'boredom'. Turnover goal.  Woewodin asks for a handpass through the centre to avoid down the  line "boredom' . Turnover goal.  Langdon switches to avoid down the line 'boredom" . Turnover goal.  Amd when we are going through the centre, Viney, Oliver and Sparrow are bombing it to Norf's spare.   What did supporters expect. The list was built for contest and defence not skills and transition.  Some weeks it will work. Some weeks we will get slaughtered. Welcome to the 2025 season. 

Slow precision kicking is one of the most difficult ways to move the ball. You just give the opposition time to set up their zones and every kick is an opportunity for a turnover which is why very few teams do it. There's so many ways we could have fixed our ball movement but really, transition footy and speed on the ball is in vogue for a reason.

 

30 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Very well said. 

I have no idea really if Goodwin is part of the problem or not. But what I can judge with my own eyes is that we don't have the team the modern game requires, and we haven't since they introduced the stand rule and 666. 

Umm, 666 came in 2019 and the stand rule in 2021. We won our flag after these. What are you talking about?

10 hours ago, Go Ds said:

It's sounds like there was a reason why Gawn was so bad today - probably something personal rather than physical. Then again if you're in the camp that wants to dump a coach that broke a huge drought 3.5 years ago and had us well-primed for another 1.5 years ago because of one game (and maybe a season destroyed by injuries) you won't even listen.

But thats the thing, 3.5 years ago, since then absolute mayhem! Nup gotta go! INJURIES are zero excuse, look what Brisvegas did with 4 or 5 of their best out!

14 minutes ago, picket fence said:

But thats the thing, 3.5 years ago, since then absolute mayhem! Nup gotta go! INJURIES are zero excuse, look what Brisvegas did with 4 or 5 of their best out!

Absolute mayhem with two top four finishes?!

Who were the 4 best missing from Brisbane? The only person missing from the previous 2 years best and fairest top 10 in their winning GF were Rich (retired) and Oscar Mac (injured in prelim). Who apart from the promising Kiddy Coleman? You're kidding if you think losing Petracca, Brayshaw the whole year plus having a compromised Oliver would not debilitate other teams if they had been as badly hit.

6 hours ago, Jjrogan said:

I disagree he has lost the players. He (and the rest of this forum) is asking the players to play to a game plan they are simply not capable of at AFL level consistency. 

Bowey kicks through the centre to avoid down the line 'boredom'. Turnover goal.  Woewodin asks for a handpass through the centre to avoid down the  line "boredom' . Turnover goal.  Langdon switches to avoid down the line 'boredom" . Turnover goal.  Amd when we are going through the centre, Viney, Oliver and Sparrow are bombing it to Norf's spare.   What did supporters expect. The list was built for contest and defence not skills and transition.  Some weeks it will work. Some weeks we will get slaughtered. Welcome to the 2025 season. 

I tend to agree with this.

Anyone in any job where they've implemented a new process and all it does is create mistakes, frustration and chaos most of the time, tend to throw their hands in the air and not give it their all when it's obvious it's just not working.

It's human nature.

That's what I saw after half time.

the players love Goody and that's a foundation stone for the team and that's great.

What I don't know and what most of us probably don't know completely is....

Is it the right system?

Can we execute it properly with enough practice?

Do we have the right skills to execute?

Do we have the right players to execute?

What worries me most is the first two questions.

If the system / process works, the belief, enthusiasm and effort grows amongst the playing group. When it doesn't, they drop their heads. JVR looked completely disillusioned by half time.

Playing soccer instead of drilling drop punts from 40 metres out at 45 degrees (not trick shots from the boundary in their spare time)?

The f50 entry process has been busted for three years now. Seriously, this worries me. This is not one match this is 3 seasons of failure.

Spreading hard and fast through the corridor from the contest and keeping possession? (I love Jonsey but was is he the right coach to teach this style?)

Defending the counter attack when turn overs occur?

We may not have the perfect squad but I suspect the system we're trying to transform into is well and truly broken.

That's how a club loses players.

If we miss finals or limp in to get flogged in an elimination final I’d say Goodwin will go. We’d then likely look for the next Kingsley type. You gotta understand that with a new coach comes a new strategy which will take several years to bed in. If a new coach comes I’d hock Petracca for draft capital. 2 high picks would do it for me. Not because I don’t think he’s an awesome player but because we can’t carry an ageing list for ever and need more high picks. We have great young talent we just need to manage the transition. I’m still hopeful we’ll improve as the season goes on. Confident we’ll bounce back against GC.

A lot of the midfield aren't that old and they're good enough to play a different game style.  The big change would be looking up first, having a step then lowering the eyes.