Season 2024 Over for Clayton Oliver

[Redleg 41,421]

9 hours ago, Gator said:

But it will have been Goodwin's decision.  How do you have egg on your face when you're in control ?  He simply would say the club and Oliver came to a mutual decision.

Yes but when you guarantee something and change your mind the eggs appear.

If Goody decides to go that way he will start cooking the omelette.

Edited August 16 by Redleg

[Redleg 41,421]

8 hours ago, binman said:

And that was with a broken hand, other injuries like PCL and cracked ribs, a disrupted pre season, much of it away from the club, mental issues, personal problems, rumours of poor behaviour and a disgusting unfair hounding from some in the media, which wouldn’t have helped his mental state.

Get back to your best in 2025 Clarry and we have a star mid back in our team again.

[Demonsterative 3,020]

18 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Yes but when you guarantee something and change your mind the eggs appear.

If Goody decides to go that way he will start cooking the omelette.

Toast and cornflakes for me 😂😳

[binman 43,747]

1 hour ago, FreedFromDesire said:

I do very much appreciate your defence of Oliver, Binman, some of the critiques have been either over the top or have completely ignored the context around the situation including his limited preparation and how that has impacted his strengths (like burst from stoppage), the early season game style change that did not suit him at all, and the fact he played through injury (which was a terrible decision by the club in my opinion).

In saying that, I think calling him our best midfielder this year is clearly a stretch. He dropped off considerably (again, taking into account the factors for that), but so did Viney (also possibly due to injury), and we had much more of a mix playing through the center, whereas Oliver only spent a tiny amount of time in a different area of the ground. So in those regards, I don't think listing classic midfield stats paints an accurate picture.

On Wheelo's ratings he's our 6th best midfielder 7th best overall), if you include Gawn as a mid. Last year, even with the injury impact, he was still our 2nd best rated player overall, and in 2022 he was our number 1 rated player overall. Given that considerable drop, I don't think it's correct to label him 'still our best' midfielder.

However, I do believe he can once again be our best next year.

How did you arrive at our sixth best rated mid on Wheelo's ratings?

@WheeloRatings's app is terrific. One reason why is the way you can sort the data

As i have noted previously, the Champion data player rating is the best measure of players as it measures the impact of every involvement a player has in a game and as is the most obbjective measure.

I'm not counting Max as a mid, nor Rivers, who didn't play enough games as a mid to be fairly compared - but even if I did include him clarry still shaded him imo.

And didn't include tracc because he only paid 13 games. If I did, obviously he's our best mid this season.

I'll acknowledge unquestionably our best mid is a stretch, but i maintain he was our best mid over the whole season.

IMO he just shaded jack viney who dropped away alarmingly in the second half of the season (and thanks to clarry escaped much scrutiny). 

This is the player ratings for the last 20 games they've played, which is why Gus is listed.

Clarry and Jack have both played 21 games this season, and it's worth noting clarry played a defensive mid role for much of the season (relevant for his disposal numbers).

Jack just shaded clarry for player ratings and clearances, but clarry bested jack for disposals, centre clearances and contested possessions - all important kpis for mids.

Leaving aside the discussion on midfield, the table makes for interesting reading.

Leaving gus and tracc aside, clarry is our sixth highest rated player in his last 20 games. Meaning he is ahead of fan favorites like may, Lever, mcvee, langers and Windsor.

Hence my comment that I'd bet dollars to donuts he'll be top 10 in the bluey.

If you are a regular demonland reader you'd think a top 10 in the bluey would be impossible given the assessment by most posters of his form this season.

 

Edited August 16 by binman

[dice 712]

8 hours ago, binman said:

A demonland poll is probably not the fairest assessment of clarry diem this year given some of the nonsense written about him

Why not? Nearly everyone on this site casting votes has watched the games, is a Melbourne supporter and knows footy. And if you don't think the poll is a fair assessment, then why does your favourite stat, Wheelo's player rating, list him behind 5 midfielders:

[binman 43,747]

25 minutes ago, dice said:

Why not? Nearly everyone on this site casting votes has watched the games, is a Melbourne supporter and knows footy. And if you don't think the poll is a fair assessment, then why does your favourite stat, Wheelo's player rating, list him behind 5 midfielders:

Behind five midfielders?

Do you mean behind five players who have played ANY midfield minutes?

I mean, c'mon, max is a ruck not a mid and kozzie and nibbla are not mids either. 

And whilst Rivers played as a mid at times, 70% of his season has been as a defender, so very difficult to compare to clarry who played as a mid 99% of the time.

Even if you do include Rivers as a mid, he is only just ahead of clarry on the ratings.

So basically clarry has had as good a season as rivers. And I don't think I've read a single post all season knocking Rivers. 

In fact Rivers' rating highlights my point about the demonland poll (which was really just an aside) - despite having almost the same player ratings this season, the demonland poll has Rivers our 4th best player, and Clarry 9th.

Edited August 16 by binman

[DistrACTION Jackson 9,224]

18 minutes ago, binman said:

Behind five midfielders?

Do you mean behind five players who have played ANY midfield minutes?

I mean, c'mon, max is a ruck not a mid and kozzie and nibbla are not mids either. 

And whilst Rivers played as a mid at times, 70% of his season has been as a defender, so very difficult to compare to clarry who played as a mid 99% of the time.

Even if you do include Rivers as a mid, he is only just ahead of clarry on the ratings.

So basically clarry has had as good a season as rivers. And I don't think I've read a single post all season knocking Rivers. 

In fact Rivers' rating highlights my point about the demonland poll (which was really just an aside) - despite having almost the same player ratings this season, the demonland poll has Rivers our 4th best player, and Clarry 9th.

Deciding who is better between Rivers and Viney or Oliver is just splitting hairs anyway.

The key takeaway is Clarry deserved his spot in the side, so if the players are genuinely aggrieved at this maybe they should look at what they can do to improve.

[Older demon 2,779]

Lots of clubs would be asking but from a time when clubs weren't permitted to publicy approach a contracted player the media circus and managers have spun this around completely. Look at Clarko yesterday saying they would like Viney. So the Cats and Aints would like to explore Clayton's availability. My response would be maybe your first-round draft pick, most of his salary and Max King for starters

[binman 43,747]

16 minutes ago, DistrACTION Jackson said:

Deciding who is better between Rivers and Viney or Oliver is just splitting hairs.

Yep.

Which was really my point. 

Objectively, clarry has had a pretty good season. 

Of course, a long way from his best, but even so, based the player ratings, better than 37 of his teamates. 

[Oxdee 438]

10 hours ago, binman said:

Clayton has had an amazing years considering where he was pre Xmas last year. Should be given a massive amount of credit 

[Biffen 12,946]

There was a useless old labourer I knew who's main job was to get the slab and ice organised in the Esky (Qld).

About 2:45 pm the call went out;

PUT 'EM ON ICE NORMY!!

Put 'em on ice Goody!

[Adam The God 30,407]

11 hours ago, Gator said:

But it will have been Goodwin's decision.  How do you have egg on your face when you're in control ?  He simply would say the club and Oliver came to a mutual decision.

Unless the decision is taken out of Goody's hands.

Which, btw, could well have a destablising effect, if Goody isn't on board with it.

[Gator 17,449]

Oliver is being paid a fortune to be what is currently the shell of his former self.

There are mitigating circumstances.  For this year, at least.

He's supposed to be in his absolute prime years.  An important point not to overlook.

Either get him fit, or believe that he's fully committed and able to do so, or trade him for a very good pick in what's an excellent draft.

Edited August 17 by Gator

[Kent 2,914]

3 minutes ago, Gator said:

Oliver is being paid a fortune to be what is currently the shell of his former self.

There are mitigating circumstances.  For this year, at least.

He's supposed to be in his absolute prime years.  An important point not to overlook.

Either get him fit, or believe that he's fully committed and able to do so, or trade him for a very good pick in what's an excellent draft.

Exactly and don't play him injured we are not helping his recovery by doing so at last they wake up and drop him but too late

[Gator 17,449]

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

Yes but when you guarantee something and change your mind the eggs appear.

If Goody decides to go that way he will start cooking the omelette.

I don't agree.  Either changing one's mind, or publicly lying, is the norm in the AFL.

But if you think there'd be egg, so be it.  That would be your take.

I'm only interested in decisions being made that are in the best interests of the club.  Hopefully, we have the personnel to get things right.  I'm not convinced we do.

[dimmy 1,308]

All of this is supposition ,started by a "media" (not real football journalist).

You have to remember that footballers are not rocket scientists (O Mac exception), they just happen to come from a variety of backgrounds AND are good (for their age) at football. They are picked up at 18 (just out of school), treated like God and ASSUMED they have allround intelligence etc. 

Next thing they are being paid ENORMOUS amounts (for their age) and many have trouble adjusting . Athlete's personal support is a major issue not just while they are playing, but when the lights flicker.

Then when things do not work out (even in the midterm) we all bail on them like as if they deliberately set out to be have these hiccups. It does not matter what background ,(Bulldogs example). I feel MFC provide that environment and should be proud of the way Clarrie (in this case) has made his way back.

MFC had a prime example in Jurrah who was probably the best natural footballer I have seen, but just could not live in that world (He refused to travel on a train for some reason). (Read the book).

Lets all have a Bex and a good lie down .

[Sir Why You Little 37,124]

37 minutes ago, Gator said:

I don't agree.  Either changing one's mind, or publicly lying, is the norm in the AFL.

But if you think there'd be egg, so be it.  That would be your take.

I'm only interested in decisions being made that are in the best interests of the club.  Hopefully, we have the personnel to get things right.  I'm not convinced we do.

That’s exactly what we need to find. The right people…

[Pirlo 813]

On 14/08/2024 at 10:32, Jaded No More said:

Good. 
Anyone who was continuously attacking his performances recently should take note that he was playing in absolute agony. His hand was never properly operated on, it was only a quick fix. His knee has been an issue since finals last year too. 
All the keyboard heroes calling him lazy and a liability, should remember that next time they attack a player before they know what is truly going on. 
 

A mighty effort from Clarry to overcome a horrible personal time, on top of a mountain of injuries, to play all but 3 games!

Good for him for playing through the pain, but why did he do so when he was not fit to play?

A hand injury does not excuse the lack of running and chasing. A hand injury does not excuse the hack kicks forward.

And if it does, then why was he playing? We are a footy club with ambition, aren't we? We thought we could play finals last week, even though it meant 3 10 goal victories. 

[binman 43,747]

1 minute ago, Pirlo said:

Good for him for playing through the pain, but why did he do so when he was not fit to play?

A hand injury does not excuse the lack of running and chasing. A hand injury does not excuse the hack kicks forward.

And if it does, then why was he playing? We are a footy club with ambition, aren't we? We thought we could play finals last week, even though it meant 3 10 goal victories. 

For god's sake who would you have selected ahead of clarry to play on ball?

Laurie?

He had his shot at cementing his spot as a mid. And couldn't take it

Clarry was dropped this week and Laurie is still in the magoos. 

Who else would you have picked from casey to play as a mid?

Sestan? Woey? AMW?

People are banging on like clarry didn't earn his spot in the side, that he wasn't in our brst side, or that we were carrying him or some such.

To be blunt, it is an argument that objectively simply does not hold up to any scrutiny. 

He is our 7th highest rated player for the seasom. That is fact not supposition.

As I noted that puts him ahead of 36 of his teamates, including of course Laurie, amw and woey. 

[D4Life 2,516]

9 minutes ago, binman said:

For god's sake who would you have selected ahead of clarry to play on ball?

Laurie?

He had his shot at cementing his spot as a mid. And couldn't take it

Clarry was dropped this week and Laurie is still in the magoos. 

Who else would you have picked from casey to play as a mid?

Sestan? Woey? AMW?

People are banging on like clarry didn't earn his spot in the side, that he wasn't in our brst side, or that we were carrying him or some such.

To be blunt, it is an argument that objectively simply does not hold up to any scrutiny. 

He is our 7th highest rated player for the seasom. That is fact not supposition.

As I noted that puts him ahead of 36 of his teamates, including of course Laurie, amw and woey. 

There are some people on Demonland you just need to block.

Re Oliver, expectations on the back of 4 B&Fs and two AFL coaches awards mean people have a high performance bar for Clarrie! 

While by his standards it has been an ordinary year, by the average player his year would be treated as solid/good.

The real issue I have is people saying trade him, trade Trac, trade Viney etc. Just get them all fit and have full pre seasons, then judge the Demons at end of next year and Goodwin for that matter!

I think I posted a comment from Mark Williams about injuries to top players, re soldier out soldier in comment trotted out by coaches. He said it was total rubbish you can’t replace a top 5 player with player rated 24-28! He was at Amateurs at the time.

Finishing the year early, resting some players, getting full preseasons into our best players, get in one or two decent draft picks and get a trade or two right and we just might have a good year in 2025!

[titan_uranus 25,043]

25 minutes ago, binman said:

For god's sake who would you have selected ahead of clarry to play on ball?

Laurie?

He had his shot at cementing his spot as a mid. And couldn't take it

Clarry was dropped this week and Laurie is still in the magoos. 

Who else would you have picked from casey to play as a mid?

Sestan? Woey? AMW?

People are banging on like clarry didn't earn his spot in the side, that he wasn't in our brst side, or that we were carrying him or some such.

To be blunt, it is an argument that objectively simply does not hold up to any scrutiny. 

He is our 7th highest rated player for the seasom. That is fact not supposition.

As I noted that puts him ahead of 36 of his teamates, including of course Laurie, amw and woey. 

You know this is part of the problem, right?

[binman 43,747]

1 hour ago, Gator said:

Oliver is being paid a fortune to be what is currently the shell of his former self.

There are mitigating circumstances.  For this year, at least.

He's supposed to be in his absolute prime years.  An important point not to overlook.

Either get him fit, or believe that he's fully committed and able to do so, or trade him for a very good pick in what's an excellent draft.

I agree Gator.

I think the evidence this season is he has been been fully committed. Tried his guts out every week.

But he was never going to get anwhere near his optimal condition given his off season.

Get his surgery done and he can attack the preseason.

I'm working on the assumption that if the club doesn't trade him the club believes that is what will happen.

But we have a big chunk of our salary cap tied up in clarry, which apart from getting value from that investment, it makes it more difficult to bring in a gun on a big contract (it doesn't seem to have impacted our ability to resign a bunch of key players).

So, he needs to get back to his best next season.

Edited August 17 by binman

[binman 43,747]

37 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

You know this is part of the problem, right?

Yes, but only in the sense that we lost losing one of best four mids in gus before a ball was bounced, lost another best four mid (and arguably the best mid in the AFL - and def top 5) in tracc and had viney, who rounds out our best 4 mids, clearly struggling with his shoulder for big chunks of the season.

So, two of our best four mids not available and the other two carrying injuries.

In terms of our midfield strength, I had expected sparrow to go up a level, but he appears to have plataued. I think kolt will go into the middle sooner rather than later as he looks a natural inside mid.

And I haven't given up on laurie.

We need to replace gus, but otherwise, IMO, we have other drafting and trading priorities, namely elite kicks who can run and carry (eg players we have been linked with like cummings and houston) and a legitimate forward ruck to give maxy a chop out.

Edited August 17 by binman

[dimmy 1,308]

General Question :

Do we get any allowance for Gus or do we just go into the draft needing to fit one more spot (which could be pick 298).

But we get exemption for Gus' salary in total player payments ???

Facts not rhetoric please.

[goodwindees 2,537]

Guys, I’m hearing that Clayton is not totally off the table. 
He’s gettable for the right offer.