POSTGAME: Rd 22 vs Port Adelaide

[binman 42,842]

14 hours ago, H_T said:

Spargo, Smith and Bowey is a stretch. Bowey being your best argument for best 23. But he hasn’t exactly been stellar in ‘24. 

And we knew well before the season started that Smith and Gus were no longer.. 

If you’re happy that last night was indeed a “severely undermanned” fielded team, good for you - I certainly wouldn’t. 

What does it matter we knew before the season started they couldn't play?

We couldn't replace them, so no different to losing two best 23 players to injury for the whole season.

Bowey is definitely in our best team. 

I'd argue smith and spargo are too.

But for the sake of argument let's say they're not.

So Tracc, May, Gus, Bowey and Windsor from our best team - all starters.

Nearly a quarter of our very best team we could field with no injury.

Four premiership players, May and Tracc multiple AA, three top 10 draft picks (2, 3 and 7!), 600 odd games of AFL footy and I'd argue three of our best six players.

As young blood notes, it's semantic siliness to debate if that equals severely undermanned.

But surely there's no debate any team missing a comparable number of their best, no injury 23 would struggle.

Collingwood for instance.

Isn't the key point that we did very well against, almost beat in fact, the team sitting second on the ladder with an undermanned  team?

Edited August 12 by binman

[H_T 3,043]

4 hours ago, binman said:

What does it matter we knew before the season started they couldn't play?

We couldn't replace them, so no different to losing two best 23 players to injury for the whole season.

Bowey is definitely in our best team. 

I'd argue smith and spargo are too.

But for the sake of argument let's say they're not.

So Tracc, May, Gus, Bowey and Windsor from our best team - all starters.

[b]Nearly a quarter of our very best team we could field with no injury.[/b]

Four premiership players, May and Tracc multiple AA, three top 10 draft picks (2, 3 and 7!), 600 odd games of AFL footy and I'd argue three of our best six players.

As young blood notes, it's semantic siliness to debate if that equals severely undermanned.

But surely there's no debate any team missing a comparable proportion of their best team would struggle 

Collingwood for instance.

Isn't the key point that we did very well against, almost beat in fact, the team sitting second on the ladder with a undermanned  team?

What, the team missing Georgiades, Soldo, Powell-Pepper, McKenzie and Jeremy Finlayson? Is that the team you’re talking about?

[binman 42,842]

5 hours ago, H_T said:

What, the team missing Georgiades, Soldo, Powell-Pepper, McKenzie and Jeremy Finlayson? Is that the team you’re talking about?

Yes, that's the team I'm talking about.

The same one, bar Georgiades, that beat the Swans the previous week by, checks notes, 136 points.

Not quite sure of your point?

I said we were undermanned and did very well against the side sitting second on the ladder.

I didn't say they had their very best side available - though it's a stretch to compare their outs to ours - no AAs in that lot, let alone one of the best players of the last 30 years.

And arguably, of those five only Georgiades and SSP are in their best team.

And only SPP has a case for being one of their top six players, whereas we have three such players out.

Am i right to assume you don't agree we did well?

Before the game, did you think we were a realistic chance of winning on Saturday night?

That's to say, did we perform above or below your pregame expectations?

Do you think we did a better job against port than the Swans, the favourite to win the flag, did the previous week?

Some might argue we did 134 points better. 

Edited August 11 by binman

[D4Life 2,468]

At the top end of the talent spectrum, if Petracca and May play, Butters and Allir don’t you have a very different result.

[Jaded No More 68,879]

10 hours ago, H_T said:

 

And well done for noting well before I did that our poor skills and decision making were very costly. Would you like a medal? 🏅 

 

 

I would love a medal, for continuously trying to make sense of the need for posters to take every single thing that someone else says that they disagree with out of context.

You wrongly noted we only missed 2 of our best 22 against Port, and I corrected you and said we also missed May (who I  assume you agree is a best 22 player). You then went on and on because another posted noted that we were 'severely undermanned', not me mind you, another poster.

So I just wanted to point out, that had you actually read this thread from the start, you'd know that straight after the game the ONLY comment I made was about our skills and decision making costing us the game. I never mentioned injuries. All I wanted to do was point out that you forgot to mention May in your list of outs. I even made a joke about him not being great, you know, to lighten the mood.

Demonland is such a miserable place when we are losing, not because people are rightly frustrated and want to express their views, but because everyone who wants to be a sad sack gets so overly sensitive when someone else tries to refute their opinion, or show them the positives. 

 

[layzie 33,793]

10 hours ago, H_T said:

Jaded. It’s noted. Whilst they are key players - it’s still not “severely undermanned” 

I have seen May make blunders like TMac did last night. Howlers. And I’ve seen him make mistakes like Lever did last night too. How many times have you seen the defenders apologize to one another for their f-ups this season? TMac is the clubhouse leader!

And well done for noting well before I did that our poor skills and decision making were very costly. Would you like a medal? 🏅 

 

 

I always prefer a showbag to a medal but that's just me. 

[The Taciturn Demon 483]

11 hours ago, Go Lordie said:

Billings is timid with the ball (afraid of making a mistake),  but I thought he was better V Port, altho his Q4 shot at goal was an opportunity lost. He created one goal by kicking over the top into space.

Reminds me a lot of late-career Jordan Lewis. If you look at the stats alone you can make a case for him. If you watch the game, it's much more difficult. 

[defuture15 898]

18 minutes ago, layzie said:

I always prefer a showbag to a medal but that's just me. 

Bertie Beetle showbag for me!

[layzie 33,793]

On 10/08/2024 at 22:18, SPC said:

Hard to argue the Oliver point. Talked to an ex AFL player and he said that regardless of a lack of pre-season, Oliver should still be dynamic early in quarters.. I watched him walking after opponents 2 minutes into the game. He just doesn’t care. 

I solely watched Oliver for about 10 mins in the 2nd or 3rd quarter, he hardly moved from the centre square or wing area and was usually 30+ metres off the contest. Barely broke out of a jog. 

He has to have a virus or something, yes he's had a down year but something about this game looked different. Someone in the gameday thread mentioned when he came off he was throwing up or something like that so who knows but it made the Clarry we've been getting this year look pretty good. 

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

I would love a medal, for continuously trying to make sense of the need for posters to take every single thing that someone else says that they disagree with out of context.

You wrongly noted we only missed 2 of our best 22 against Port, and I corrected you and said we also missed May (who I  assume you agree is a best 22 player). You then went on and on because another posted noted that we were 'severely undermanned', not me mind you, another poster.

So I just wanted to point out, that had you actually read this thread from the start, you'd know that straight after the game the ONLY comment I made was about our skills and decision making costing us the game. I never mentioned injuries. All I wanted to do was point out that you forgot to mention May in your list of outs. I even made a joke about him not being great, you know, to lighten the mood.

Demonland is such a miserable place when we are losing, not because people are rightly frustrated and want to express their views, but because everyone who wants to be a sad sack gets so overly sensitive when someone else tries to refute their opinion, or show them the positives. 

 

Remind me to come back to this forum, only when we start winning premierships please. 😮‍💨

[picket fence 17,131]

11 hours ago, middleagedemon said:

And Oscar McDonald! Don't forget him! 

Juice Newton says Hi!

[Witches Hat 433]

2 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

I would love a medal, for continuously trying to make sense of the need for posters to take every single thing that someone else says that they disagree with out of context.

You wrongly noted we only missed 2 of our best 22 against Port, and I corrected you and said we also missed May (who I  assume you agree is a best 22 player). You then went on and on because another posted noted that we were 'severely undermanned', not me mind you, another poster.

So I just wanted to point out, that had you actually read this thread from the start, you'd know that straight after the game the ONLY comment I made was about our skills and decision making costing us the game. I never mentioned injuries. All I wanted to do was point out that you forgot to mention May in your list of outs. I even made a joke about him not being great, you know, to lighten the mood.

Demonland is such a miserable place when we are losing, not because people are rightly frustrated and want to express their views, but because everyone who wants to be a sad sack gets so overly sensitive when someone else tries to refute their opinion, or show them the positives. 

 

We don't have to be losing for Demonland to be a miserable place. I give you the post North Melbourne game thread as Exhibit A.

[von 1,564]

13 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

The carry on from some on here regarding this is ridiculous. 

Then there's the May could have stopped a goal or two commentary. 

How'd he go stopping goals against Fremantle, West Coast when they smashed us and then close games like GWS where he could have stopped a goal or two when he played.

Remarkable the excuses some go to in lengths.

No one here is making excuses. None of us are capable of having an excuse because we aren’t running the club and didn’t participate in the game. We are looking at reasons. It’s quite different. No one here has any power over the result or the decisions made. It’s pretty straight forward. Stop having a crack at peoples “excuses” because you fancy yourself as some no nonsense, say it as I see it type. 

[binman 42,842]

3 hours ago, layzie said:

I solely watched Oliver for about 10 mins in the 2nd or 3rd quarter, he hardly moved from the centre square or wing area and was usually 30+ metres off the contest. Barely broke out of a jog. 

He has to have a virus or something, yes he's had a down year but something about this game looked different. Someone in the gameday thread mentioned when he came off he was throwing up or something like that so who knows but it made the Clarry we've been getting this year look pretty good. 

Talk is a number of players were crook, including JVR,

Tracks with Bowey being an out due to illness.

If true (it's unsubstantiated), it makes the performance of the team and Goody even more meritorious. 

BUT BEFORE THE FACE PALM POSSE JUMP ALL OVER ME, IF IT IS TRUE THAT SEVERAL PLAYERS WERE ILL, IT IS A FACTOR TO CONSIDER IN ANY ASSESSMENT OF THE PERFORMANCE NOT AN EXCUSE!

Edited August 12 by binman

[binman 42,842]

3 hours ago, layzie said:

I solely watched Oliver for about 10 mins in the 2nd or 3rd quarter, he hardly moved from the centre square or wing area and was usually 30+ metres off the contest. Barely broke out of a jog. 

He has to have a virus or something, yes he's had a down year but something about this game looked different. Someone in the gameday thread mentioned when he came off he was throwing up or something like that so who knows but it made the Clarry we've been getting this year look pretty good. 

Agree, I watched Clarry closely when he came to the bench. (i sit behind and above it). He looked absolutely cooked - more so than normal. So did Maxy

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

16 hours ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

Nathan Jones is horrible when commentating Melbourne games. Totally biased against his old team. I really don’t get it. I’ve made comment on here before about it. Maybe has an axe to grind with Goodwin 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

i have noticed it too. Lyon 2.0

[Wells 11 5,395]

10 minutes ago, binman said:

Agree, I watched Clarry closely when he came to the bench. (i sit behind and above it). He looked absolutely cooked - more so than normal. So did Maxy

Ok, this a tricky question ...and Im a huge Oliver fan....but do we just rest him now with 25 in sight? Let him heal that hand and get stuck into the fitness work ahead of time. Or will that create the wrong kind of headlines and put him under more pressure? Im just struggling to see the true champion that he was (and I believe will be again)  perform in this way...

I cant believe this is good for him now...he's cooked. I pray for the day that he can run past butters after kicking a brilliant goal and give him back the mouthful he deserves. 

[Jaded No More 68,879]

15 minutes ago, binman said:

Agree, I watched Clarry closely when he came to the bench. (i sit behind and above it). He looked absolutely cooked - more so than normal. So did Maxy

I too sit right near the bench. Not only was Oliver dripping snot as he was coming to the bench (it was quite the sight 🤮), in the first quarter he was on hands and knees on the field, with our team doctor, sticking his fingers down his throat in an effort to make himself throw up as he was presumably unwell. 
As someone with a serious phobia of vomiting, that nearly ended my 25 year stint at the football 😂

JVR also looked absolutely cooked every time he ran to the bench. It was like the jogging to the bench was going to end him. 
 

COME AT ME FACE PALMERS 💪🏻

[Jaded No More 68,879]

4 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

Ok, this a tricky question ...and Im a huge Oliver fan....but do we just rest him now with 25 in sight? Let him heal that hand and get stuck into the fitness work ahead of time. Or will that create the wrong kind of headlines and put him under more pressure? Im just struggling to see the true champion that he was (and I believe will be again)  perform in this way...

I cant believe this is good for him now...he's cooked. I pray for the day that he can run past butters after kicking a brilliant goal and give him back the mouthful he deserves. 

I think we should rest him and send him off for surgery on his hand. 
I guess the club has different considerations regarding his mental well being and how connected that is to his ability to play each week. 

If it was my call he’d be off to get his hand fixed today, and given an early return date to pre season training with clear fitness markers that he has to hit (skin folds, kms run, etc). 

[binman 42,842]

5 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

I think we should rest him and send him off for surgery on his hand. 
I guess the club has different considerations regarding his mental well being and how connected that is to his ability to play each week. 

If it was my call he’d be off to get his hand fixed today, and given an early return date to pre season training with clear fitness markers that he has to hit (skin folds, kms run, etc). 

That's my take too, ie the routine of training and playing is important in terms of his well being and his efforts to address his off field issues. 

I actually though they should have subbed him but wondered if not doing so was related to above (or perhaps JVR was even sicker).

[Roost it far 8,236]

12 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

I too sit right near the bench. Not only was Oliver dripping snot as he was coming to the bench (it was quite the sight 🤮), in the first quarter he was on hands and knees on the field, with our team doctor, sticking his fingers down his throat in an effort to make himself throw up as he was presumably unwell. 
As someone with a serious phobia of vomiting, that nearly ended my 25 year stint at the football 😂

JVR also looked absolutely cooked every time he ran to the bench. It was like the jogging to the bench was going to end him. 
 

COME AT ME FACE PALMERS 💪🏻

You asked for the facepalm 🤓

[Fat Tony 5,228]

I thought we played well and were well coached.

The main positives were Pickett, Gawn, Petty and Viney. But...

Oliver is a massive liability. He is struggling to find the ball and then can't retain possession because he lacks acceleration, balance and composure. We can debate if he will get back to being a positive, but if he doesn't improve we won't be a premiership threat for the course of his contract.

Hore takes a nice intercept mark, but is not a good enough kick (slow and imprecise), not quick enough and falls to ground too often.

Rivers had a poor night by foot.

I don't see the appeal of McVee in the midfield. He is just not big or quick enough off the mark to be great inside the phone box. We could play him higher up the field in defence, but I think the backline is his spot.

[dpositive 1,663]

Theres a lot to like in this thread, (and I have marked them as I went through). Some were even contradictory and some I agreed strongly with all the content and some I agreed with the majority of the post. 

I went to the game last night, able to schedule a few things to accommodate. Was going to drive home but too disappointed and able to arrange an emergency bed, but still didnt sleep or travel well thinking of how disappointing this season has been. In a 3.5 hr trip you get plenty of time to reflect. Match time is usually not a factor in my attendance. I am able or not able to attend related to all of my life demands. I am not as dedicated as I was and so do appreciate the efforts of everyone on DLand for giving their perspective.

I have seen a few games live and its certainly a different perspective than viewing on the TV.

Its a complicated game and magnified over the season. there are so many contributing factors, most of which have been touched on in the thread so thanks all.

There have been some constant factors that we have all touched on and at the risk of being repetitive I feel I do need to purge myself (hope its not a meaningless rant).

Yes our squad was affected from the start of the season with Brayshaw and Smith significant, but the club did handle both those absences reasonably well and did blood some kids (Windsor Tholstrup and Moniz Wakefield ) who  have potential. They  displayed some skills and both had some inconsistency which always seems to come with youth. Given that, I regret that we did not use the squad more fully and give Fullarton, Jefferson etc a game, particularly against struggling teams.

All teams struggle for different reasons and different times, we are included. Its the coaches job to recognise that and make the best decisions on how to exploit that. Goody has shown some great innovation (Binman has pointed that out during the season) but also seems to have some blindspots. He seldom applies a stopper (tag) on opposition dominant player as he seems to rely on his structure.

The defensive structure that has been effective with a consistent back line playing as a team works well under most circumstances and there was a squad approach as alternatives were able to stp into the defensive structure and play the role required. Perhaps May (and others) could have been given a little more recovery time (but I refer to my original comment the coach decides). Some team coaches seem to have recognised and exploited the structure by running to the vacant spaces between the space protecting defender. 

Our mid structure has been affected by Clarry's difficulties. He is a great player and perhaps could have been rested but also perhaps needed the squad and game contacts that the coach provided. Goody really seemed to make many changes including using Clarry in  a more defensive role than I noted last year. This  affected the mid field which  adapted with Rivers particularly stepping up. The mid field stood up in most matches but it seemed Viney particularly could have been rested  more often. Bringing others in the squad for a game exposes them to what they need to do to improve. I give our mid field a  pass on the year and think we have good depth and potential for the future.

Our forward structure has seemed to be a fault all year. I did note there were some novel approaches during the year, rotating all players through posts and even lining all forwards up in the goal square at one match. Its hard to be critical, Fritsch is Fritsch, Kossie is Kossie brilliant but inconsistent. But we should not rely on them to win every match, we have not done that most games but when they are missing others do have to stand up. Van Rooyen is a forward and still learning. Petty is a defender still learning, Disco is still developing. Jefferson and Fullarton are learning but some time in the ones might help that development. Rotate the squad, rest players to allow them to recover before they blow up.

Our structure of forwards also sees them press up the field too often and the long bomb is then used from too far down the field. We need our small forward fleet, who can and have been  rotated need to carry the ball deeper into the forward line with smaller, targeted kicks or faster ball movement to achieve that. The long bomb should only be used as a last option or when there are clear mismatches in personnel. Eg when Max moves forward.. Our deep forwards do need to lead into spaces when we get possession and should keep moving to provide options for our mid field and small mids to kick to rather than just bombing to a contest.  They should also rotate their leads and seperate to provide alternative options, The number of times our forwards  fly together and in big packs is crazy. It doesnt work, although If Van Rooyn is left to develop and Jefferson or Fullarton Bulk up or even if Kentfield provides and proves to be the bigger more mature body to succeed with that approach. So forwards do have potential and also get a pass.

On Petty, My opinion is he is a defender, hes still young but I wonder if he is still thinking of returning to Adelaide with a very generous contract. I hope our contract extension was designed to achieve a maximum compensation for that return. We do have enough defenders in the squad to maintain that solid backline discipline to cover his loss. 

I did notice that Horne Francis in the last quarter went towards the coaches box gesticulating to the coach to play on the outer wing, He got and gave the thumbs up and waved his arms to his teamates to stack that side of the ground. They did and he dominated that sector and was in my opinion the most significant player in the win. Port fans on the tram stated he did this captains role often while recognising our Max as the best player on the ground all night. They were in awe of his play. I was in awe of Vineys vigour and contribution but neither they nor any Melbourne player identified a reaction to the Horne Francis tactic, no one lined up with him, Melbourne fans were crying out man up, man up, it didnt happen. Even manning up on JHF would have made a difference. 

I love this club and will continue to support them whenever and however I can. I am still optimistic but hope that we can get Clarry, Trac, Viney and Max and May fit and on the field well next year with appropriate rest and relief as the coach sees necessary so that all players can complete a full and taxing season including a finals campaign.

Rant over.

[Deemania since 56 6,630]

21 hours ago, Bimbo said:

Actually played just over 50 but another young player 

And, doing well, too. Another year and he will be a gun - just as JJ might have matured, on-field. Chin has got attitude and drive - moreso than most of the team - and is solid enough to get off his bum for a return to the impact game. Tackles really well, time after time. A hunter for the action. Have I mentioned his goal-kicking skills and those from quite a distance out? Best we've got, actually. 

[binman 42,842]

3 hours ago, Roost it far said:

You asked for the facepalm 🤓

A vomit emoji would have been more fit for purpose!