8 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Something that irks me and is seldom quantified or acknowledged is the waste of a year of the players. Some haven't much more of their careers left. Others are developing ( or poignantly are not ) . What value, what $ does anyone ascribe to this.

It's not just the cost of a payout as you rightly suggest. It's to be weighed against a whole basket of values.

Values as in "Culture"? we apparently have the best....apparently!

41 minutes ago, Damo said:

There are many intrinsic factors to winning when the sides are very even, with some areas better in each team. The highly skilled insight by Jeff White a month ago illistrated this.

Then there are training drills that players need to be taught to perform as instinct.

Im not a coach but Im sure other teams would do this. It drives me nuts as kicking was my one wood and I watch others at my circle work we old fartts do twice weekly for 30 years. I hate rabbits that screw up a kick and by the time youve retrieved it they are screaming for a handball.

Bear with me:

1. Kicking low and hard down a corridor from a standing start. 30 metres under a 4 metre ceiling? At least Id say. More likely 3 metres. Try aiming at an open bin with its lid up, it is harder than aiming at a person. aiming at goal is not aiming at a person and is much harder.

2. Looking for a handball instead of a kick around the corner, shows confidence in team mates. Some players only have one other version than straightahead of them. Viney (Left hand over right shoulder), Clarrie, left or right but too often kick over the shoulder on the boundary, never HB low, along the line or behind. Tracc always is confident with his disposal. WTF?

3. How fast can you run and deliver accurately and low? Rivers can run but hoofs it. Can he learn to slow a step and deliver? Players need to know their limits. Can you change kick direction at last minute? You should!

4. I dont play golf but have seen the side on videos of the swing. Some players foot arc means they should change their drop depending on age, injury and speed. I found as I got older, if i kicked the very bottom of the ball at half speed (pretty slow!) I could keep it low. Cant do it at speed, thats when a HB is probably better. Kicking the lower third is correct most ot the time but not always.

5. If its a mark or free then there is no excuse to put it on someones head or in a pack. If you eyeball your target you should be able to get his correct side and the ball should be spinning correctly, doesnt sound a big deal but it should be drilled into players.

   Im sorry if this seems footy 101 and all drafted players have these skills already. i see other teams use the above and wonder why Choco is our kicking coach. i wouldnt get him to tie my tie.

   Rant over. fight me.

As someone who was similar, I find the lack of basic skills in the modern game hard to swallow.

I was watching my son’s U/8’s game yesterday and 99% of the kids run sideways as a first instinct and kick over their shoulder.

Their coaches are trying to tell them to run straight but they all want to ‘run before they can walk’.

To add some relevance to this thread, we have relied upon a model that no longer works and it appears we have tried to turn our entire list into the same type of player, leaving the skilled players bereft of confidence and the necessary development in skills has stagnated or been forgotten in the search for contest and defence.

Edited June 16Jun 16 by BW511

28 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Something that irks me and is seldom quantified or acknowledged is the waste of a year of the players.

I think this is so important.

I still have some optimism for 2026. But goodness, if we missed finals three seasons in a row while merely tinkering with the list and saying "We're still working on better forward entries", we're doing a huge disservice to the players.

I'm not viciously anti-Goodwin, but I do think the coach, and everyone with an influential role at the club, has to avoid the permanently in-between state of a club like St Kilda, Essendon or Fremantle. If you're not confidently building towards finals with your current list, you've got to be reworking a list so it will in the future.

Obviously, nobody ever sits down at he start of the year and says "Let's be mediocre", but some sit down at the start of the year and are completely unrealistic about the state of the list.

28 minutes ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

I think this is so important.

I still have some optimism for 2026. But goodness, if we missed finals three seasons in a row while merely tinkering with the list and saying "We're still working on better forward entries", we're doing a huge disservice to the players.

I'm not viciously anti-Goodwin, but I do think the coach, and everyone with an influential role at the club, has to avoid the permanently in-between state of a club like St Kilda, Essendon or Fremantle. If you're not confidently building towards finals with your current list, you've got to be reworking a list so it will in the future.

Obviously, nobody ever sits down at he start of the year and says "Let's be mediocre", but some sit down at the start of the year and are completely unrealistic about the state of the list.

Too much Love. Not enough hard work (Physically or Mentally)

18 minutes ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

Obviously, nobody ever sits down at he start of the year and says "Let's be mediocre", but some sit down at the start of the year and are completely unrealistic about the state of the list.

This is my point. You’ve done a better job than I did of putting it forward.

We have been completely unrealistic about our list and gameplan. So much so that we have a stated aim of finals and for two consecutive seasons and won’t be close to them.

My next question is; who on Demonland legitimately thinks we can be Premiership contenders in 2026? My answer is absolutely no chance.

So, in my opinion, we either build toward the next one now or continue to slowly sink. Does Goodwin figure in that next Premiership? Can we inject enough talent and smarts into the list and footy department to do it while we still have Max? According to our own metrics, we’ve wasted 24 & 25 with Max.

6 minutes ago, JJJ said:

This is my point. You’ve done a better job than I did of putting it forward.

We have been completely unrealistic about our list and gameplan. So much so that we have a stated aim of finals and for two consecutive seasons and won’t be close to them.

My next question is; who on Demonland legitimately thinks we can be Premiership contenders in 2026? My answer is absolutely no chance.

So, in my opinion, we either build toward the next one now or continue to slowly sink. Does Goodwin figure in that next Premiership? Can we inject enough talent and smarts into the list and footy department to do it while we still have Max? According to our own metrics, we’ve wasted 24 & 25 with Max.

Goodwin IS NOT in our next premiership window.

That also includes several senior players.

31 minutes ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

ential role at the club, has to avoid the permanently in-between state of a club like St Kilda, Essendon or Fremantle. If you're not confidently building towards finals with your current list, you've got to be reworking a list so it will in the future.

Obviously, nobody ever sits down at he start of the year and says "Let's be mediocre", but some sit down a

3 minutes ago, JJJ said:

This is my point. You’ve done a better job than I did of putting it forward.

We have been completely unrealistic about our list and gameplan. So much so that we have a stated aim of finals and for two consecutive seasons and won’t be close to them.

My next question is; who on Demonland legitimately thinks we can be Premiership contenders in 2026? My answer is absolutely no chance.

So, in my opinion, we either build toward the next one now or continue to slowly sink. Does Goodwin figure in that next Premiership? Can we inject enough talent and smarts into the list and footy department to do it while we still have Max? According to our own metrics, we’ve wasted 24 & 25 with Max.

It was 2019 when I finally realised the footy department will always talk up the list/game plan irrespective of what they're actually seeing because they don't want to see the membership numbers drop off. In 2019 it went past hopeful optimism to what I considered to be borderline dishonest. Now you've just got to try to listen for the verbal cues on where we're focussing on improving and tune out the repetition.

4 minutes ago, JJJ said:

My next question is; who on Demonland legitimately thinks we can be Premiership contenders in 2026? My answer is absolutely no chance.

That's my answer, too.

5 minutes ago, JJJ said:

Can we inject enough talent and smarts into the list and footy department to do it while we still have Max?

I still hold out some hope. But if the answer is no, you probably need to cut deep. Does that then guarantee you numerous bottom 4 finishes at a time when the top of the draft will be filled with Tassie picks?

I think the list is pretty good

Kings Birthday and the Brisbane win show me this

I don’t think the Football Department staff are coaching at all well.

We need a Clean out of Staff

3 minutes ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

That's my answer, too.

I still hold out some hope. But if the answer is no, you probably need to cut deep. Does that then guarantee you numerous bottom 4 finishes at a time when the top of the draft will be filled with Tassie picks?

Wouldn't it be better for the long run to instead focus on the future?

For example bring in Kalani and develop him under the tutorship of Max.

8 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I think the list is pretty good

Kings Birthday and the Brisbane win show me this

I don’t think the Football Department staff are coaching at all well.

We need a Clean out of Staff

I hover somewhere around this. The list is not brilliant. It's serviceable with a few glaring deficiencies. Barring injuries it can be competitive.

Hell we should have won KB in spite of ourselves but managed to trot out our old nemesis.... " the inability to really score well and consistently "

This then brings us around to our coaching and development.

I'm with you Sir...get a broom....a big one and push it through the F.D. .. if a few nqrs off the list get caught up in bristles.... so be it.

5 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

I hover somewhere around this. The list is not brilliant. It's serviceable with a few glaring deficiencies. Barring injuries it can be competitive.

Hell we should have won KB in spite of ourselves but managed to trot out our old nemesis.... " the inability to really score well and consistently "

This then brings us around to our coaching and development.

I'm with you Sir...get a broom....a big one and push it through the F.D. .. if a few nqrs off the list get caught up in bristles.... so be it.

And please please while you are at it, can someone plan to bring a true KPF sooner than later?

Doesn't have to be Curnow or Hogan but someone proven and reliable.

16 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

Watching port go forward with players free all over the place and leads to kick to compared to us where we have a crowded mess and every player running to the same spot was stark.

It's actually quite embarrassing considering our talent vs Their's. Apart from JHF, Rozee, Georgiades, Butters and Farrell, none of their other players would probably be in our best 22.

5 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

It's actually quite embarrassing considering our talent vs Their's. Apart from JHF, Rozee, Georgiades, Butters and Farrell, none of their other players would probably be in our best 22.

Their system just looked much better.

Round 3, 2017 v Geelong:

"It was frustrating. Clearly you've got to kick goals to win games of footy and we didn't do that today,"

Round 5, 2018 v richmond

"We didn't connect well forward of centre. It's been a little bit of a tale of some of our games this year where we've struggled to connect and have efficiency inside forward 50.”

Round 21, 2018 v Sydney

"We didn't connect well forward of centre. It's been a little bit of a tale of some of our games this year where we've struggled to connect and have efficiency inside forward 50.”

Round 6, 2019 v Richmond

"We had our opportunities through the middle of the ground, but we couldn't connect with our handball and our kicking,"

Round 15 and 16, 2020 against lowly Sydney and Freo were the same. Inefficiency cost us finals.

Now 2022 onwards, the same old BS keep repeating! Even after a flag, this club finds new ways of disappointing fans.

Inefficiency, moving the ball inside 50 and goal kicking has been an issue ever since Goodwin took over. 2021 was better, but we were still 10th overall for inside 50 to goal conversion.

Simply unsustainable. So much energy finding the ball only to squander chance after chance, it is little wonder why we have experienced severe mental and physical burnout. Idiotic coaching and man management from the entire football department in general.

I envy the likes of Collingwood and Geelong, I really do.. they just find answers to problems and often than not solve them in quick time.

Edited June 16Jun 16 by VNightCityLegend

Whether Goodwin is coaching us or not his salary remains in the soft cap until the end of his contract meaning we'd have to back end any new coaches salary out of next year so we could attract some new assistants. Replacing Richardson is a no brainer, can't imagine Goodwin taking that role but would solve the salary issue. Williams has to go because he's in charge of kicking straight, he's failed, see ya!

I'd want the very best and most experienced assistant in the game. I don't want Simpson or Longmire, fatigue will set in quick with those 2, we need an 8-10 year coach. Goodwin will struggle to survive I'd of thought but who knows. A part of me thinks we signed up Kozz before we moved Goodwin on.

I had some bloke tell me last week that we had the best list in the AFL. That's the sort of nonsense that is thrown around after you win a flag. The same sort of people earlier this year and for the past couple of years have said the Dogs have the best list. Also nonsense although the Darcy kid elevates them a bit.

The truth about 2021 is that we had one of the best few teams in the competition and we had a great run with injuries with only Jayden Hunt unavailable in the immediate preview of the finals. And even Hunt could have been selected by the first week of the finals but he had lost his place in the team and Goodwin was keeping a winning group together.

In the two years afterwards we were cruelled by injuries to key players at key times and that famed list was nowhere near as good as it seemed. In fact, it was, and is shallow even though I agree there are some promising kids developing now.

Goodwin did a great job with the list he had and ran with his luck. He is now trying to craft this group that won a flag with one style of play into something that competes with a very different style. It is a work in progress. He has not lost the players. Some time next year, as his contract begins to peter out, we'll make a call on whether he stays or goes. Given this year is pretty much shot I reckon we sit tight and see just how creative he can be. He still has the players and some coaches improve over time. Goodwin might be one such.

1 hour ago, VNightCityLegend said:

Round 3, 2017 v Geelong:

"It was frustrating. Clearly you've got to kick goals to win games of footy and we didn't do that today,"

Round 5, 2018 v richmond

"We didn't connect well forward of centre. It's been a little bit of a tale of some of our games this year where we've struggled to connect and have efficiency inside forward 50.”

Round 21, 2018 v Sydney

"We didn't connect well forward of centre. It's been a little bit of a tale of some of our games this year where we've struggled to connect and have efficiency inside forward 50.”

Round 6, 2019 v Richmond

"We had our opportunities through the middle of the ground, but we couldn't connect with our handball and our kicking,"

Round 15 and 16, 2020 against lowly Sydney and Freo were the same. Inefficiency cost us finals.

Now 2022 onwards, the same old BS keep repeating! Even after a flag, this club finds new ways of disappointing fans.

Inefficiency, moving the ball inside 50 and goal kicking has been an issue ever since Goodwin took over. 2021 was better, but we were still 10th overall for inside 50 to goal conversion.

Simply unsustainable. So much energy finding the ball only to squander chance after chance, it is little wonder why we have experienced severe mental and physical burnout. Idiotic coaching and man management from the entire football department in general.

I envy the likes of Collingwood and Geelong, I really do.. they just find answers to problems and often than not solve them in quick time.

The coach is NOT the man for the job, clearly he can't fix it and if he cant, he goes...end of story

1 hour ago, At the break of Gawn said:

It's actually quite embarrassing considering our talent vs Their's. Apart from JHF, Rozee, Georgiades, Butters and Farrell, none of their other players would probably be in our best 22.

Bergman would be a walk up start but otherwise yes we had more than enough talent to win this game.

we seem to be incapable of winning the close games and can't defend a lead - we panic and revert to bombing the ball and making dumb decisions. It is infuriating the 50m penalties we give away and the number of goals scored by the opposition at the end of quarters. So many issues at so many levels.

50 minutes ago, pitmaster said:

I had some bloke tell me last week that we had the best list in the AFL. That's the sort of nonsense that is thrown around after you win a flag. The same sort of people earlier this year and for the past couple of years have said the Dogs have the best list. Also nonsense although the Darcy kid elevates them a bit.

The truth about 2021 is that we had one of the best few teams in the competition and we had a great run with injuries with only Jayden Hunt unavailable in the immediate preview of the finals. And even Hunt could have been selected by the first week of the finals but he had lost his place in the team and Goodwin was keeping a winning group together.

In the two years afterwards we were cruelled by injuries to key players at key times and that famed list was nowhere near as good as it seemed. In fact, it was, and is shallow even though I agree there are some promising kids developing now.

Goodwin did a great job with the list he had and ran with his luck. He is now trying to craft this group that won a flag with one style of play into something that competes with a very different style. It is a work in progress. He has not lost the players. Some time next year, as his contract begins to peter out, we'll make a call on whether he stays or goes. Given this year is pretty much shot I reckon we sit tight and see just how creative he can be. He still has the players and some coaches improve over time. Goodwin might be one such.

So creative that we are just lost out in the wilderness when it comes to kicking at goal? Mind you, it's been the same issues for 4 years.

1 minute ago, ElDiablo14 said:

So creative that we are just lost out in the wilderness when it comes to kicking at goal? Mind you, it's been the same issues for 4 years.

Yep. You'll see elsewhere that goal kicking is a big bugbear of mine too. The creativity I mention is upfield and how we move the ball. The goal kicking is so fundamental I am mystified why it can't be better addressed by line coaches and head shrinkers.

1 hour ago, VNightCityLegend said:

Round 3, 2017 v Geelong:

"It was frustrating. Clearly you've got to kick goals to win games of footy and we didn't do that today,"

Round 5, 2018 v richmond

"We didn't connect well forward of centre. It's been a little bit of a tale of some of our games this year where we've struggled to connect and have efficiency inside forward 50.”

Round 21, 2018 v Sydney

"We didn't connect well forward of centre. It's been a little bit of a tale of some of our games this year where we've struggled to connect and have efficiency inside forward 50.”

Round 6, 2019 v Richmond

"We had our opportunities through the middle of the ground, but we couldn't connect with our handball and our kicking,"

Round 15 and 16, 2020 against lowly Sydney and Freo were the same. Inefficiency cost us finals.

Now 2022 onwards, the same old BS keep repeating! Even after a flag, this club finds new ways of disappointing fans.

Inefficiency, moving the ball inside 50 and goal kicking has been an issue ever since Goodwin took over. 2021 was better, but we were still 10th overall for inside 50 to goal conversion.

Simply unsustainable. So much energy finding the ball only to squander chance after chance, it is little wonder why we have experienced severe mental and physical burnout. Idiotic coaching and man management from the entire football department in general.

I envy the likes of Collingwood and Geelong, I really do.. they just find answers to problems and often than not solve them in quick time.

Yes an ongoing problem with the MFC is that Players have always “switched on” or switched off” sporadically.

2021 is the only year since Norm Smith was in charge that we have been mentally tuned in for an entire season.

The Filth, Jeeelong and Hawthorn have a high standard that is adhered too year after year, yes they have dips in their performances, but those performances are outliers. Whereas with the MFC we for whatever reason cannot stay at a high level

Chris Scott or Craig McCrae would not put up with a disfunctional Forward Line for multiple seasons, so why should we accept it.

We went out of the ‘23 Final Series because of Bad Kicking…Since then the situation has only gotten worse

In what other Profession would Goodwin and his assistants survive with their current record since 2021…??

The Last 30 Games

10 Wins

20 Losses

Our list is better than that, the Standards set by the Club are either Not High Enough or they are not Enforced

Many of us have commented since early ‘22 that the Team was winning ugly, but the Forward Line was not in a good place.

and yet the Head Coach tells us every week that the system is being worked on.

Enough of this Charade…

Edited June 16Jun 16 by Sir Why You Little

Goodwin needs to go along with a good cleanout

2 hours ago, At the break of Gawn said:

It's actually quite embarrassing considering our talent vs Their's. Apart from JHF, Rozee, Georgiades, Butters and Farrell, none of their other players would probably be in our best 22.

Yeah, they would

Bergman

Burgoyne

Burton

Ratugolea