POSTGAME: Rd 12 vs Fremantle

[The Taciturn Demon 398]

1 hour ago, ANG13 said:

It’s hard not to feel like there is something going on within the football club with a result like that. One thing this group has managed to do even when they have had bad days is show a response and limit the damage. Clearly not yesterday. 
 

Since our premiership it’s felt a bit like a large chunk of our players think we can just flick a switch and play fifteen minutes of good football and win. Our inconsistency in work rate is something that is really frustrating me. I can get over bad decision making, skill errors and mistakes a lot easier than work rate, for me it’s a non negotiable. Yes you are always going to have a level of fluctuation but it shouldn’t be at the level we are showing. 
 

 

I feel the same. So much about that game was so unusually bad that it almost felt dream-like. I half-expected Goodwin to go into the press conference and go full Chris Scott: "A virus ran through us this week. We thought about replacing half the team."  

But no. So what is it? 

"We're overrated" has come up a lot on here. Almost certainly true, but it doesn't account for total un-competitiveness for a full three and a half quarters two weeks after being thoroughly rinsed by West Coast. 

The optimist in me says "Well, Richmond had some huge losses in their 2017 and 2019 Flag years". The realist says the same as you: something's going on. 

Edited June 3 by The Taciturn Demon

[jayceebee31 759]

13 hours ago, demon3165 said:

You are blaming the current president for not having a training ground we have two and won a premiership with that so that's a rubbish comment as for pert, the club financially is the best it has been, agree on coaching staff I have been on that for two years the club can go two ways continue on it's path, or make changes for longer term I think Goodwin will continue the same path and we will have wins and depending on other games to make finals as this is a close season.

What today showed is the lack of foot and hand skills and decision making, and a gameplan that shows we are not good two way runners.

The president is the head of the organisation…one that makes decisions, strategy and gets the job done..Kate has not done so…needs to get out…caused to much angst at the club in my opinion..stayed to long with inactivity.

re Pert.financially we were a lot better…under Jim Caldwell,we were elite..should have bought the Hilton, now Pulman for our social aspects.Change is needed at this club - and in many aspects…

[Gawndy the Great 9,010]

9 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

But that's the worrying part here. If the players did not care yesterday and just dished out that sort of "effort", it reflects very bad on the leadership both on the field and the coaching staff.

If that were the case, definitely Goodwin can't continue. Sometimes relationships are beyond repair.

It appears that way as well. A lot on here put down some alarming decline in key performance areas (Clearance, CP, i50 differentials) as a result of change in game plan. I think its fair to say that this was likely not intentional and there are other sinister things at play. 

Could Goodwin have lost the players? Possible

Is the game plan not right for the list? Likely - we just have to revert back to our old game style.

Was our off-field program / preseason modified to heavily? Possible - The emphasis of having our players fit and firing in finals may have caused an overreaction. As Buckley has put it, are we carrying a lot of unfit players in the same style as 2019?

Is our list problematic? Are our bottom 6 not up to AFL standard? Likely - Not just the bottom 6, but our reliable AA players too.

[At the break of Gawn 4,458]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Bucks gets it.

 

I’m not sure I agree with this. We’ve had some terrific last qtrs this year (Port and Geelong for example). 

Also I heard in an interview Tmac said that the program hasn’t changed much since Burgo left. 

Goody has always been strict on fitness and skin folds. Think of May in 2019, Watts in 2017 etc

What I think is the players probably looked gassed because they defended all day. We let them take 140+ marks.

Edited June 3 by At the break of Gawn

[jayceebee31 759]

13 hours ago, demon3165 said:

You are blaming the current president for not having a training ground we have two and won a premiership with that so that's a rubbish comment as for pert, the club financially is the best it has been, agree on coaching staff I have been on that for two years the club can go two ways continue on it's path, or make changes for longer term I think Goodwin will continue the same path and we will have wins and depending on other games to make finals as this is a close season.

What today showed is the lack of foot and hand skills and decision making, and a gameplan that shows we are not good two way runners.

Listen to Buckley today re SEN regarding the teams fitness….

yes, I can blame Lameduck President for totally being inefficient.

[demon3165 2,628]

5 minutes ago, jayceebee31 said:

The president is the head of the organisation…one that makes decisions, strategy and gets the job done..Kate has not done so…needs to get out…caused to much angst at the club in my opinion..stayed to long with inactivity.

re Pert.financially we were a lot better…under Jim Caldwell,we were elite..should have bought the Hilton, now Pulman for our social aspects.Change is needed at this club - and in many aspects…

Caldwell, why don't we go back to when we were first a club that's a silly point, let's go back to the merger times and past that. The club is in better shape than it has been for many years.

As for the President they don't make all decisions the board does the board runs the club the President is the figure head so to speak.

[demon3165 2,628]

1 minute ago, jayceebee31 said:

Listen to Buckley today re SEN regarding the teams fitness….

yes, I can blame Lameduck President for totally being inefficient.

Oh so the President is in charge of the football department now and should be telling them how to play now your dislike for her influencing you thoughts.

That's Buckley's view does he know what's inside the club I doubt it doesn't make him right.

[layzie 33,574]

4 minutes ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

I feel the same. So much about that game was bad that it almost felt dream-like. I half-expected Goodwin to go into the press conference and go full Chris Scott: "A virus ran through us this week. We thought about replacing half the team."  

But no. So what is it? 

"We're overrated" has come up a lot on here. Almost certainly true, but it doesn't account for total un-competitiveness for a full three and a half quarters two weeks after being thoroughly rinsed by West Coast. 

The optimist in me says "Well, Richmond had some huge losses in their 2017 and 2019 Flag years". The realist says the same as you: something's going on. 

Totally agree. 

And I know you're not doing this, but hearing people constantly pointing to complete outlier results to defend our team is a total waste of time. Whether it's Richmond having bad losses in their flag years, Collingwood being beaten by Hawthorn last year, the fact that we got smashed by 98 points then went on to play in a Grand final 25 years ago.

This club and it's success in 2021 was built on a model and system that stacked the probability in our favour over the course of a game and season. To then go and cite these weirdo examples that are as rare as a day in Melbourne without roadworks doesn't really do anything for me but suggest that a minor miracle is required to get out of this. 

What are WE going to do about it, what happens next? That's what I'm interested in. 

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,284]

22 minutes ago, Ted Lasso said:

I have to respectfully disagree with this, multiple years of consistent finals didn't impact the fitness levels of Richmond or Hawthorn when they had dynasty eras, even Port Adelaide, Brisbane and Geelong have consistently contended without any major concerns around their fitness that i've seen. 

It's really difficult to give an informed opinion without knowing the layout of our pre-season and the numbers of the players throughout it, but it's certainly something that really needs to be reviewed by the club if there has been some drop off in this space. 

I've said this a few times however, and it's that we average between 9-13 players 24 years and younger every single game this year and a lot of thoes guys are 18-21. It does take time to build fitness to a level to handle the rigors of an AFL season, and potentially a few of the young guys might get some level of a pass, but i would be interested to see the fitness levels of some of the senior players compared to previous years.

Not trying to make excuses, just posing the thought out there.

I think the biggest issue is we have Petty, Oliver & McAdam all who have had a limited preseason and struggling to have an impact on the game. Our best forward pressure player is now required to play through the midfield due to our lack of footspeed.

I think the other thing is our list isn't built for the high speed turnover game that teams like Collingwood and Sydney are playing with their elite foot skills and speed. We just have to get back to what we are good at, focusing on a forward half game until we have the right balance of players.

[cookieboc 767]

10 hours ago, ElDiablo14 said:

What can that message be though? Supposedly Goodwin is like a father to all the players, what just happened in the last 6 months?

Btw, is this related to Angus stepping down from his position at the club post forced retirement?

I have zero information on what it could be, its just a feeling my sister and I had.

Its not like this team to drop its bundle like this. Having said that, 2019 did happen

[Deemania since 56 6,584]

12 hours ago, 48 Year Now said:

Trac waving his arms in frustration with someone was unusual.

I felt it was more than humiliating for Trac to have to do this. Wherever he went as the game of carnage went on, he gave his all, changed some circumstances and ran out of petrol himself, early in the game (he trains as a polished footballer should, not as an absolutely essential decathlete ameliorating the errors of others),  playing as hard as he could to improve the situation without support field-wide. In the future, I earnestly hope that Trac takes up the senior coaching position at the MFC when his playing days subside. Alongside Gawn, Viney, Gus and ANB, he is the heart and soul of what it means to be a Demon. 

[cookieboc 767]

14 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

I’m not sure I agree with this. We’ve had some terrific last qtrs this year (Port and Geelong for example). 

Also I heard in an interview Tmac said that the program hasn’t changed much since Burgo left. 

Goody has always been strict on fitness and skin folds. Think of May in 2019, Watts in 2017 etc

What I think is the players probably looked gassed because they defended all day. We let them take 140+ marks.

that could be a problem

[whatwhat say what 22,424]

personally i would doubt buckley is as keen as an observer of the mfc as anyone on this message board

he's just a commentator whose focus is on 18 clubs, and as everyone is well aware with a particular bent towards the black and white variety

[drdrake 3,149]

We have the same issues when we play poorly, our ability to keep and control the football.  Many of us have been banging on for years on how bad our team is at hitting targets.  

The game has changed it is all about turnovers now, Richmond brought the frontal pressure get the ball moving forward at all cost, we then brought that pressure around the contest, numbers contested footy, now you have those elements plus the turnover footy, you miss targets you get scored against.

It seems once we do turn over the footy our mids just don't work hard defensively.

 

[dice 684]

39 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

2023 It was a combination of bad luck and lack of Fwd depth. I am almost certain that had Melksham, Kozzy and JVR not missed any of the finals, we were a good chance to win the premiership.

Not to mention the McRae directive to Maynard to take out Brayshaw. That was the turning point of the finals last year.

We must reset next Monday and make the finals this year. Then anything is possible with a bit of a luck

[mo64 5,764]

1 minute ago, dice said:

Not to mention the McRae directive to Maynard to take out Brayshaw. That was the turning point of the finals last year.

We must reset next Monday and make the finals this year. Then anything is possible with a bit of a luck

That's libelous. I hope you've got a good lawyer.

[mpc 148]

 

[dice 684]

3 minutes ago, mo64 said:

That's libelous. I hope you've got a good lawyer.

i hope you've got a dictionary

[titan_uranus 24,957]

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

I suggest you do some research to see what Sharp, Hollands and Bowes cost their new clubs. It was less than what we gave up for the likes of Grundy, Billings and Hunter. And we lost young talent in Jordon and Bedford due to lack of opportunity.

And we still haven't got a genuine 2nd ruckman on our list. If you think that our list management has been fine then you've got your head buried in the sand.

These are poor examples. Hollands wanted to go to Carlton to play with his brother. Bowes had a massive contract which any suitor had to have room for. Sharp was fringe. 

Picking other fringe player trades which worked and then complaining about our fringe player trades is fine, but hindsight affected. 

IMO the better argument is the type of players we’ve brought in. Did Billings or McAdam really fill a list need when, even with Gus, our midfield was shallow?

[The Taciturn Demon 398]

23 minutes ago, layzie said:

Totally agree. 

And I know you're not doing this, but hearing people constantly pointing to complete outlier results to defend our team is a total waste of time. Whether it's Richmond having bad losses in their flag years, Collingwood being beaten by Hawthorn last year, the fact that we got smashed by 98 points then went on to play in a Grand final 25 years ago.

This club and it's success in 2021 was built on a model and system that stacked the probability in our favour over the course of a game and season. To then go and cite these weirdo examples that are as rare as a day in Melbourne without roadworks doesn't really do anything for me but suggest that a minor miracle is required to get out of this. 

What are WE going to do about it, what happens next? That's what I'm interested in. 

No, I agree. That Richmond comment was just me at my most wildly optimistic. In part it comes from the fact that, although I've had concerns and quibbles with how this team plays over a long time, I haven't had the sense that "This has been coming" like so many others on this forum. Yes, I've worried that we would naturally fall away or that the response to our predictable 22/23 style would be an overcorrection, but suddenly being creamed by teams with no runs on the board - nah. 

I'm interested in what happens next, too. Particularly given that some extremely important players are now well into their 30s. 

I'm also not interested in "bouncing back". Yes, a far better performance on Monday is important. But if it's just a on-off reaction to an embarrassing effort, who cares? 

[Demonland 70,902]

[mo64 5,764]

1 minute ago, titan_uranus said:

These are poor examples. Hollands wanted to go to Carlton to play with his brother. Bowes had a massive contract which any suitor had to have room for. Sharp was fringe. 

Picking other fringe player trades which worked and then complaining about our fringe player trades is fine, but hindsight affected. 

IMO the better argument is the type of players we’ve brought in. Did Billings or McAdam really fill a list need when, even with Gus, our midfield was shallow?

I had no issue with McAdam because he potentially offers us something unique. As it turns out his fitness seems to be an issue. But I was never in favour of Billings, especially after getting Hunter. Both were seasoned footballers who were discarded for a reason, which I said at the time.

I also questioned the acquisition of Hore. And everyone bar the sycophants questioned the re-signing of Schache. People argue that these acquisitions were low cost, but every list spot is valuable. Unless the player is an A-Grader coming off a good season, I'd rather we trade for players with upside than players who were past it.

[48 Year Now 87]

4 minutes ago, mo64 said:

I had no issue with McAdam because he potentially offers us something unique. As it turns out his fitness seems to be an issue. But I was never in favour of Billings, especially after getting Hunter. Both were seasoned footballers who were discarded for a reason, which I said at the time.

I also questioned the acquisition of Hore. And everyone bar the sycophants questioned the re-signing of Schache. People argue that these acquisitions were low cost, but every list spot is valuable. Unless the player is an A-Grader coming off a good season, I'd rather we trade for players with upside than players who were past it.

I agree with all you have said and I would add having Chandler and Laurie makes the Billing’s Hunter gets even worse. Early but I don’t think young Brown will make it. 

[leave it to deever 17,502]

Can we begin by stopping selling a home game to play on a ground that is a four hour flight away dominated by supporters from another club.

We may not have won at the Mcg but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have lost by almost 100 points.

It's disrespectful to the fans who can't afford to fly interstate and pay for hotel bills. Times are tough

Its shortsighted. Yes the money is good but isn't winning more important?

Can we also trade Petty asap before we can't get anything for him. Can we say no to players who left other clubs like, Hunter, Schache, McAdam, Fullerton and Billings?

 

 

[Timothy Reddan-A'Blew 4,892]

36 minutes ago, dice said:

Not to mention the McRae directive to Maynard to take out Brayshaw. That was the turning point of the finals last year.

We must reset next Monday and make the finals this year. Then anything is possible with a bit of a luck...

...and 'direction', 🎲🎲?

Oops. Do I need legal aid now, too, @mo64? 🙂😉