POSTGAME: Rd 20 vs Richmond

[daisycutter 28,650]

1 minute ago, Dee Zephyr said:

You reckon Broad was unlucky not to get the free?

agree. broad was not unlucky.  he tried to pull a ginivan and got adjudged as prior opportunity

he raised his arm to deflect cozzie's arm higher and threw his head back simultaneously

what was lucky was the umpire saw it

[layzie 29,338]

1 minute ago, daisycutter said:

agree. broad was not unlucky.  he tried to pull a ginivan and got adjudged as prior opportunity

he raised his arm to deflect cozzie's arm higher and threw his head back simultaneously

what was lucky was the umpire saw it

That's pretty much it. I didn't think Kozzie got him high the prior opportunity was the only question for me and the arm raise was effectively his prior. 

[binman 38,923]

6 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Just the fact that 8 of 22 possessions were turnovers.

Source?

Where do you get 8 turnovers from?

I'm not saying you are incorrect, but he had four clangers for the game, not 8.

This is the Champion data definition of a clanger:

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

[old55 21,447]

13 minutes ago, binman said:

Source?

Where do you get 8 turnovers from?

I'm not saying you are incorrect, but he had four clangers for the game, not 8.

This is the Champion data definition of a clanger:

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

They're available here:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=10918&advv=Y#t2

Here's some more information:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2023&rt=LA&pt=&st=TO&mg=1

I think turnovers per possession and per contested possession are important to consider too though.

Oliver 6 TO, 33 Possessions (5.5 per TO), 15.7 Contested (2.62 per TO)

Petracca 5.63, 28.42 (5.05 per TO), 13.84 (2.46 per TO)

ANB 4, 15.26 (3.82 per TO), 5.95 (1.49 per TO)

ANB does turn it over at a pretty high rate.

Edited August 1, 2023 by old55

[binman 38,923]

13 minutes ago, old55 said:

They're available here:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=10918&advv=Y#t2

Ta.

So 4 of nibbler's turnovers did not result 'in a negative result for his side'. 

And from that list Langdon also had 8 turnovers, Viney 7 and Pickett 5.

It's also worth noting that four dees players - Langdon, Gawn, Tomlinson and Melksham - had more clangers (ie turnovers that result 'in a negative result for his side') than Nibbler.

Don't recall reading much criticism for their errors this week. 

Hell, the silky skilled Shai Bolton had more clangers AND turnovers than Nibbler.  

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=10918#t2

Edited August 1, 2023 by binman

[old55 21,447]

3 minutes ago, binman said:

Ta.

So 4 of nibbler's turnovers did not result 'in a negative result for his side'. 

And from that list Langdon also had 8 turnovers, Viney 7 and Pickett 5.

It's also worth noting that four dees players - Langdon, Gawn, Tomlinson and Melksham - had more clangers (ie turnovers that result 'in a negative result for his side') than Nibbler.

Don't recall reading much criticism for their for their skill errors this week. 

Hell, the silky skilled Shai Bolton had more clangers AND turnovers than Nibbler.  

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=10918#t2

I added some possessions data to the post, I think that's relevant.

Look overall I'm a fan, gotta take the good with the bad.  If he turned it over less he's be a star ...

Edited August 1, 2023 by old55

[layzie 29,338]

37 minutes ago, binman said:

Source?

Where do you get 8 turnovers from?

I'm not saying you are incorrect, but he had four clangers for the game, not 8.

This is the Champion data definition of a clanger:

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

This is what is throwing me. Is a clanger the same as a turnover? 

Edit: They have both on Footywire. 

Turnover: Losing possession to the opposition in general play. General play excludes events that happen between a stoppage and the clearance.

 

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

Edited August 1, 2023 by layzie

[old55 21,447]

32 minutes ago, layzie said:

This is what is throwing me. Is a clanger the same as a turnover? 

https://www.championdata.com/glossary/afl/

Turnover: Losing possession to the opposition in general play. General play excludes events that happen between a stoppage and the clearance.

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

[binman 38,923]

41 minutes ago, old55 said:

I added some possessions data to the post, I think that's relevant.

Where old (ie where did you add the possessions data)?

Funnily enough, i was just thinking about that.

For example, Melksham only had 9 disposals - and 33% were turnovers (the rest, bar two, were goals!).

And Tomo had 7 disposals - and more than 50% (4) were turnovers.

Edited August 1, 2023 by binman

[binman 38,923]

27 minutes ago, old55 said:

 

https://www.championdata.com/glossary/afl/

Turnover: Losing possession to the opposition in general play. General play excludes events that happen between a stoppage and the clearance.

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

One is worse than the other.

And it seems posters often conflate them. 

[old55 21,447]

Just now, binman said:

Where old (ie where did you add the possessions data)?

Funnily enough, i was just thinking about that.

For example, Melksham only had 9 disposals - and  remarkably over 50% were clangers (5) and 33% were turnovers.

And Tomo had 7 disposals - and remarkably nearly 80% (5) of which were clangers and more than 50% (4) were turnovers.

By way of contrast Nibbler, who probably runs 50% further than both Melk and Tomo and therefore is gassed much of the time, had 22 disposals and less than 20% were clangers.

Confirmation bias is a very interesting phenomena.  

I got the disposals and contested on the same site Footywre, e.g.:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2023&rt=LA&pt=&st=CP&mg=1

[binman 38,923]

1 minute ago, old55 said:

I got the disposals and contested on the same site Footywre, e.g.:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2023&rt=LA&pt=&st=CP&mg=1

No i got that.

I meant which post did you add the possessions data to.

And, der, now i realize what you meant - you added to your initial post!

Ta. Very relevant

[layzie 29,338]

7 minutes ago, binman said:

One is worse than the other.

And it seems posters often conflate them. 

Definitely.

And in a turnover the phase between the stoppage and clearance doesn't count? 

Wondering if a clearance is the first effective disposal out from the pack (eg a quick handball) or the first possession to territory advantage? 

[old55 21,447]

2 minutes ago, layzie said:

Definitely.

And in a turnover the phase between the stoppage and clearance doesn't count? 

Wondering if a clearance is the first effective disposal out from the pack (eg a quick handball) or the first possession to territory advantage? 

Open wide ...

Clearance: Credited to the player who has the first effective disposal in a chain that clears the stoppage area, or an ineffective kick or clanger kick that clears the stoppage area.

[jnrmac 19,231]

Footy is a game of mistakes. Everyone makes them

[binman 38,923]

22 minutes ago, old55 said:

I added some possessions data to the post, I think that's relevant.

Look overall I'm a fan, gotta take the good with the bad.  If he turned it over less he's be a star ...

Sure, but i think his role has to be factored into any such analysis. Not all turnovers are created equal. Apples and oranges and all that.

Nibbler is an endurance player who runs 16-17 kms per game, much of which is at high speed. So he would be gassed much more of the time than power, burst athlete like tracc - which logically has to have an impact on his turnover numbers

I don't know what their turover ratio numbers are, but at the dees the only players who run his sort of distances and higjh speed, repeat sprints are Hunter, Langers and to lesser extent Spargo.

At other clubs, Toby Bedford would have similar profile (the giants recruited him to play Nibbler's high half forward role).

Those players would be better comparisons. 

[binman 38,923]

1 minute ago, jnrmac said:

Footy is a game of mistakes. Everyone makes them

Much like life. 

[Fromgotowoewodin 851]

8 minutes ago, layzie said:

Definitely.

And in a turnover the phase between the stoppage and clearance doesn't count? 

Wondering if a clearance is the first effective disposal out from the pack (eg a quick handball) or the first possession to territory advantage? 

Yes, as often there’s a lot of scrabbling around in the pack with no clear disposals they don’t count losing the ball in there as a turnover, it’s only once the ball is on the outside team they count turnovers. 

Clearance is the first disposal to clear the stoppage area, can be effective or ineffective. 

Clangers include disposal clangers (i.e. turnovers) as well as the other categories so you’re always likely to have more clangers than t/overs. And clangers shouldn’t be counted as a % of disposals (you might have a dropped mark clanger and 0 possessions) but with t/overs you can. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Fromgotowoewodin

[layzie 29,338]

3 minutes ago, old55 said:

Open wide ...

Clearance: Credited to the player who has the first effective disposal in a chain that clears the stoppage area, or an ineffective kick or clanger kick that clears the stoppage area.

Makes it pretty black and white. 

Never used to think possessions backwards counted but I guess they do.  

[old55 21,447]

8 minutes ago, layzie said:

Makes it pretty black and white. 

Never used to think possessions backwards counted but I guess they do.  

It's really a "disposal" backwards a "possession" is something different:

Disposal: Legally getting rid of the ball, via a handball or kick.

Possession: When a player grabs the ball with a reasonable amount of time to dispose of it. Includes groundball-gets, marks, handball receives, effective contested knock-ons and frees for.

And there's a related important distinction between a "first possession" and a "clearance"

First Possession: The initial possession that follows a stoppage, including a looseball-get, hardball-get, intended ball-get (gather), free kick or ground kick.

Clearance: Credited to the player who has the first effective disposal in a chain that clears the stoppage area, or an ineffective kick or clanger kick that clears the stoppage area.

[Males 578]

On 7/31/2023 at 10:18 PM, Stevienic23 said:

Did this get picked up by the cameras? Which qtr/minute mark? 

In case no one has answered, it happened in the 1st minute of the 3rd quarter, just after Dusty kicks a goal. I’m not sold that it was a chat of tactics though. 

[leave it to deever 16,016]

On 8/1/2023 at 4:09 PM, binman said:

One is worse than the other.

And it seems posters often conflate them. 

I'm guessing your a lawyer by trade.