Jump to content

POSTGAME: Rd 20 vs Richmond


Demonland

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Dee Zephyr said:

You reckon Broad was unlucky not to get the free?

agree. broad was not unlucky.  he tried to pull a ginivan and got adjudged as prior opportunity

he raised his arm to deflect cozzie's arm higher and threw his head back simultaneously

what was lucky was the umpire saw it

  • Like 5
  • Clap 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, daisycutter said:

agree. broad was not unlucky.  he tried to pull a ginivan and got adjudged as prior opportunity

he raised his arm to deflect cozzie's arm higher and threw his head back simultaneously

what was lucky was the umpire saw it

That's pretty much it. I didn't think Kozzie got him high the prior opportunity was the only question for me and the arm raise was effectively his prior. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Just the fact that 8 of 22 possessions were turnovers.

Source?

Where do you get 8 turnovers from?

I'm not saying you are incorrect, but he had four clangers for the game, not 8.

This is the Champion data definition of a clanger:

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

  • Clap 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, binman said:

Source?

Where do you get 8 turnovers from?

I'm not saying you are incorrect, but he had four clangers for the game, not 8.

This is the Champion data definition of a clanger:

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

They're available here:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=10918&advv=Y#t2

Here's some more information:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2023&rt=LA&pt=&st=TO&mg=1

I think turnovers per possession and per contested possession are important to consider too though.

Oliver 6 TO, 33 Possessions (5.5 per TO), 15.7 Contested (2.62 per TO)

Petracca 5.63, 28.42 (5.05 per TO), 13.84 (2.46 per TO)

ANB 4, 15.26 (3.82 per TO), 5.95 (1.49 per TO)

ANB does turn it over at a pretty high rate.

Edited by old55
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, old55 said:

Ta.

So 4 of nibbler's turnovers did not result 'in a negative result for his side'. 

And from that list Langdon also had 8 turnovers, Viney 7 and Pickett 5.

It's also worth noting that four dees players - Langdon, Gawn, Tomlinson and Melksham - had more clangers (ie turnovers that result 'in a negative result for his side') than Nibbler.

Don't recall reading much criticism for their errors this week. 

Hell, the silky skilled Shai Bolton had more clangers AND turnovers than Nibbler.  

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=10918#t2

Edited by binman
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, binman said:

Ta.

So 4 of nibbler's turnovers did not result 'in a negative result for his side'. 

And from that list Langdon also had 8 turnovers, Viney 7 and Pickett 5.

It's also worth noting that four dees players - Langdon, Gawn, Tomlinson and Melksham - had more clangers (ie turnovers that result 'in a negative result for his side') than Nibbler.

Don't recall reading much criticism for their for their skill errors this week. 

Hell, the silky skilled Shai Bolton had more clangers AND turnovers than Nibbler.  

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=10918#t2

I added some possessions data to the post, I think that's relevant.

Look overall I'm a fan, gotta take the good with the bad.  If he turned it over less he's be a star ...

Edited by old55
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, binman said:

Source?

Where do you get 8 turnovers from?

I'm not saying you are incorrect, but he had four clangers for the game, not 8.

This is the Champion data definition of a clanger:

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

This is what is throwing me. Is a clanger the same as a turnover? 


Edit: They have both on Footywire. 

Turnover: Losing possession to the opposition in general play. General play excludes events that happen between a stoppage and the clearance.

 

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.
Edited by layzie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, layzie said:

This is what is throwing me. Is a clanger the same as a turnover? 

https://www.championdata.com/glossary/afl/

Turnover: Losing possession to the opposition in general play. General play excludes events that happen between a stoppage and the clearance.

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


41 minutes ago, old55 said:

I added some possessions data to the post, I think that's relevant.

Where old (ie where did you add the possessions data)?

Funnily enough, i was just thinking about that.

For example, Melksham only had 9 disposals - and 33% were turnovers (the rest, bar two, were goals!).

And Tomo had 7 disposals - and more than 50% (4) were turnovers.

Edited by binman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, old55 said:

 

https://www.championdata.com/glossary/afl/

Turnover: Losing possession to the opposition in general play. General play excludes events that happen between a stoppage and the clearance.

Clanger: An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side. Disposal clangers are any kick or handball that directly turns the ball over to the opposition. Frees and 50-metre penalties against, No Pressure Errors, Dropped Marks and Debits are all included in clangers.

One is worse than the other.

And it seems posters often conflate them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, binman said:

Where old (ie where did you add the possessions data)?

Funnily enough, i was just thinking about that.

For example, Melksham only had 9 disposals - and  remarkably over 50% were clangers (5) and 33% were turnovers.

And Tomo had 7 disposals - and remarkably nearly 80% (5) of which were clangers and more than 50% (4) were turnovers.

By way of contrast Nibbler, who probably runs 50% further than both Melk and Tomo and therefore is gassed much of the time, had 22 disposals and less than 20% were clangers.

Confirmation bias is a very interesting phenomena.  

I got the disposals and contested on the same site Footywre, e.g.:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2023&rt=LA&pt=&st=CP&mg=1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, old55 said:

I got the disposals and contested on the same site Footywre, e.g.:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2023&rt=LA&pt=&st=CP&mg=1

No i got that.

I meant which post did you add the possessions data to.

And, der, now i realize what you meant - you added to your initial post!

Ta. Very relevant

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, binman said:

One is worse than the other.

And it seems posters often conflate them. 

Definitely.

And in a turnover the phase between the stoppage and clearance doesn't count? 

Wondering if a clearance is the first effective disposal out from the pack (eg a quick handball) or the first possession to territory advantage? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, layzie said:

Definitely.

And in a turnover the phase between the stoppage and clearance doesn't count? 

Wondering if a clearance is the first effective disposal out from the pack (eg a quick handball) or the first possession to territory advantage? 

Open wide ...

Clearance: Credited to the player who has the first effective disposal in a chain that clears the stoppage area, or an ineffective kick or clanger kick that clears the stoppage area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, old55 said:

I added some possessions data to the post, I think that's relevant.

Look overall I'm a fan, gotta take the good with the bad.  If he turned it over less he's be a star ...

Sure, but i think his role has to be factored into any such analysis. Not all turnovers are created equal. Apples and oranges and all that.

Nibbler is an endurance player who runs 16-17 kms per game, much of which is at high speed. So he would be gassed much more of the time than power, burst athlete like tracc - which logically has to have an impact on his turnover numbers

I don't know what their turover ratio numbers are, but at the dees the only players who run his sort of distances and higjh speed, repeat sprints are Hunter, Langers and to lesser extent Spargo.

At other clubs, Toby Bedford would have similar profile (the giants recruited him to play Nibbler's high half forward role).

Those players would be better comparisons. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, layzie said:

Definitely.

And in a turnover the phase between the stoppage and clearance doesn't count? 

Wondering if a clearance is the first effective disposal out from the pack (eg a quick handball) or the first possession to territory advantage? 

Yes, as often there’s a lot of scrabbling around in the pack with no clear disposals they don’t count losing the ball in there as a turnover, it’s only once the ball is on the outside team they count turnovers. 

Clearance is the first disposal to clear the stoppage area, can be effective or ineffective. 

Clangers include disposal clangers (i.e. turnovers) as well as the other categories so you’re always likely to have more clangers than t/overs. And clangers shouldn’t be counted as a % of disposals (you might have a dropped mark clanger and 0 possessions) but with t/overs you can. 

Edited by Fromgotowoewodin
Link to comment
Share on other sites


3 minutes ago, old55 said:

Open wide ...

Clearance: Credited to the player who has the first effective disposal in a chain that clears the stoppage area, or an ineffective kick or clanger kick that clears the stoppage area.

Makes it pretty black and white. 

Never used to think possessions backwards counted but I guess they do.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, layzie said:

Makes it pretty black and white. 

Never used to think possessions backwards counted but I guess they do.  

It's really a "disposal" backwards a "possession" is something different:

Disposal: Legally getting rid of the ball, via a handball or kick.

Possession: When a player grabs the ball with a reasonable amount of time to dispose of it. Includes groundball-gets, marks, handball receives, effective contested knock-ons and frees for.

And there's a related important distinction between a "first possession" and a "clearance"

First Possession: The initial possession that follows a stoppage, including a looseball-get, hardball-get, intended ball-get (gather), free kick or ground kick.

Clearance: Credited to the player who has the first effective disposal in a chain that clears the stoppage area, or an ineffective kick or clanger kick that clears the stoppage area.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/31/2023 at 10:18 PM, Stevienic23 said:

Did this get picked up by the cameras? Which qtr/minute mark? 

In case no one has answered, it happened in the 1st minute of the 3rd quarter, just after Dusty kicks a goal. I’m not sold that it was a chat of tactics though. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    TRAINING: Tuesday 28th May 2024

    Veteran Demonland Trackwatcher Kev Martin returned to the training track to bring you the following observations from Gosch's Paddock this morning. Beautiful morning for training. The dew has dried, out from AAMI, quiet chatting. Maysie does his heart symbol. 7 in rehab, Turner, Hore, Sestan, BBB, Petty, Spargo and Schache. All in runners. Melky weighted and change of angles work. Salem has his individual program. White cap (no contact), Howes, Woewodin and Sparrow

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    GALLANT by KC from Casey

    The world “gallant” is not one that is readily acceptable to losing teams in our game of football so when it was used in the context of the Casey Demons’ loss to Sandringham in yesterday’s match at Casey Fields, it left a bitter taste in the mouth.  The Demons went into the game against the St Kilda affiliated Zebras with the advantage of playing on their home turf (not that this has been a major asset in 2024) and with very little else going in their favour. The Saints have close to a full

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Casey Articles

    MEANWHILE by Whispering Jack

    … meanwhile, at about the same time that Narrm was putting its feet on the accelerator to obliterate the long-suffering Euro-Yroke combination, I heard someone mention in passing that Kuwarna was leading Waalitj Marawar by a whopping 46 to 1 halfway through the second quarter of their game over in Adelaide. “What is football coming to?” I asked myself.  In front of my eyes, the Demons were smashing it through the midfield, forcing turnovers and getting the footy to their forwards who w

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    PREGAME: Rd 12 vs Fremantle

    The Demons head back on the road for the fourth time this season as the travel to Alice Springs to take on the Fremantle Dockers at Treager Park on Sunday afternoon. Who comes in and who goes out?

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 152

    PODCAST: Rd 11 vs St. Kilda

    The Demonland Podcast will air LIVE on Monday, 27th May @ 8:30pm. Join George, Binman & I as we analyse the Demons victory at the MCG over the Saints in the Round 11. You questions and comments are a huge part of our podcast so please post anything you want to ask or say below and we'll give you a shout out on the show. If you would like to leave us a voicemail please call 03 9016 3666 and don't worry no body answers so you don't have to talk to a human. Listen & Chat LIVE

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 29

    VOTES: Rd 11 vs St. Kilda

    Captain Max Gawn has a considerable lead over reigning champion Christian Petracca in the Demonland Player of the Year Award. Steven May, Alex Neal-Bullen & Jake Lever make up the Top 5. Your votes for the win against the Saints. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 54

    POSTGAME: Rd 11 vs St. Kilda

    After a very wasteful first half of footy the Demons ended up cruising to a clinical victory over the Saints by 38 points at the MCG and ultimately reclaimed a coveted spot in the Top 4.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 396

    GAMEDAY: Rd 11 vs St. Kilda

    It's Game Day and after 2 losses on the trot the Dees must win against the Saints today at the MCG to keep in touch with the Top 4. A loss today will see them drop out of the Top 8 for the first time since 2020.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 503

    HEAVEN OR HELL by The Oracle

    Clashes between Melbourne and St Kilda are often described as battles between the forces of heaven and hell. However, based on recent performances, it’s hard to get excited about the forthcoming match between these two sides. It would be fair to say that, at the moment, both of these teams are in the doldrums. The Demons have become the competition’s slow starters while the Saints are not only slow to begin, they’re not doing much of a job finishing off their games either. About the only th

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Previews
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!

×
×
  • Create New...