1 hour ago, deelusions from afar said:

Agree with a lot of what you've written.  All comes down to what the resting ruck does - but if they're spending time forward, I can't see us playing TMac, Brown, Van Rooyen and Fritsch in the one side.  It's too top heavy in the forward half even with rotations

And while I'm a big fan of Chandler and really want him to get a decent crack at AFL level, I don't know if it will be at the expense of ANB or Spargo.  Although they are sometimes the whipping boys of the team on here, both have unique strengths that are vital to the team.  ANB with his running capacity (allowing the likes of Trac to play more attacking) and Spargo with his footskills and (sadly for us) rare ability to hit targets inside F50.  Chandler has strengths of his own but unless other players (eg Hunter?) can make up for the strengths of Spargo / ANB I think they'll still be in the team.

Thanks DFA

I regard Tmac as our "irreplaceable " tall forward over BBB simply  because he has over the period since 2018 been more effective and at least if not better in serving as head of our attack. Yes Benny had a better last third in 2021 but Tommy set up for the first two thirds in 2021, kicked over 50 in 2018 and was a star in 10 games for us in the unbeaten run in 2022. 
Despite some figures presented on D/L I think Tommy has more effects and positive form for all the other forwards when at CHF.in our team. 
However I won't ever forget that fabulous run from Round 20  by BBB where he was playing tall and the team got it right in its use of Him plus he marked around the Flanks to great benefit.

Tmac also is great when in form for his competitiveness down the ground also his slick goalkicking in the30m arc.

Both in form are match winners and I believe both JVR and Fritta could still play with them due to their excellent ground skills and snap shooting prowess  at times.

I must admit leaving either ANB or Charlie out of our forward line was hard but we must move on from our 2021 heroes st some stage and search for a sharper goal kicker for one of them I believe.  Chandler by all accounts is giving himself every chance on top of his excellent 2022 to be selected on form this season.  And someone must make way if JVR is also in the mix.Again team mix is vital no doubt. 

We will all have an opinion but some changes must be made for improvement and a revamped game style if our forward line in 2023 is to provide more goals than in 2022.

 

6 minutes ago, 58er said:

Thanks DFA

I regard Tmac as our "irreplaceable " tall forward over BBB simply  because he has over the period since 2018 been more effective and at least if not better in serving as head of our attack. Yes Benny had a better last third in 2021 but Tommy set up for the first two thirds in 2021, kicked over 50 in 2018 and was a star in 10 games for us in the unbeaten run in 2022. 

 

 I like T Mac and he has played some good footy but let's not get carried away. he kicked 15 goals in 2022 and was dropped based on poor performance when we had few other fwd options in form.  hardly a star in 2022.  His marking and general mobility was also below his best.

8 minutes ago, DubDee said:

 I like T Mac and he has played some good footy but let's not get carried away. he kicked 15 goals in 2022 and was dropped based on poor performance when we had few other fwd options in form.  hardly a star in 2022.  His marking and general mobility was also below his best.

Sorry DD Tommy was injured in The Freo game and no more AFL available for2022. Multiply 15 in 10 rounds then say 24 rounds is 36 goals snd the others he brings from smalls and mids etc. 

We severely missed him in 2022.

59 minutes ago, DeelightfulPlay said:

I'm reading Max Gawn's Captain's Diary book again and he brings up an observation from Daisy Pearce about the impact of BBB (stats from the middle of the 2021 finals).

 

Coincidentally, so am I. Got more time due to Covid 😷

One thing I read yesterday was the credit Max gave to Luke Jackson re improving Max's footwork post stoppage, his ability to spread quickly.  He speaks of getting power into the first 3 steps after a ruck contest. He was always a great ruckman but It definitely improved his all round game. He wouldn't have kicked a 55m goal on the run like against Geelong in the PF 2 years before that game. This in something Grundy can improve on and if he can, those 2 will be even more formidable together.

2 hours ago, old dee said:

Would you?

Probably.

If I were an AFL player and I knew I wouldn't be able to play a game the following season due to a degenerate knee, I'd be seeking a settlement from the club on the last year of the contract and then try to make up the balance of income forgone in another line of work, because I know that a perk of being an AFL player is the connections I've developed.

In the past, players have retired before their contracts have expired.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Deebauched said:

If 4 umps does eventuate this should help Brown immensely.

There will be an ump at each end making it easier to see backs hitting ,pushing out and holding the FF 's.

Then again we are talking about MFC.  No free's but plenty to Hawkins at the cattery.

 

And if they ever decide to adjudicate fairly and impartially the regular violent hits on Max's back and head would be cracked down on.

1 hour ago, 58er said:

Sorry DD Tommy was injured in The Freo game and no more AFL available for2022. Multiply 15 in 10 rounds then say 24 rounds is 36 goals snd the others he brings from smalls and mids etc. 

We severely missed him in 2022.

no I mean before he was injured. He was dropped for Anzac eve game based on poor form.

15 goals from 10 rounds in the top team with the best midfield and a percentage of 161 is average by anyones standards

Like I said, I like him and he is an important player for us, but he was far from a star in 2022

1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Probably.

If I were an AFL player and I knew I wouldn't be able to play a game the following season due to a degenerate knee, I'd be seeking a settlement from the club on the last year of the contract and then try to make up the balance of income forgone in another line of work, because I know that a perk of being an AFL player is the connections I've developed.

In the past, players have retired before their contracts have expired.

 

 

 

Noble, and I believe you mean it. But I suspect if you really had to make that decision you might come to a different conclusion. After all, those contacts will still be there after you've retired. And your earnings capacity in any other line of work might not match what you were due to be paid in your last year. (Please note, I'm not insulting your current capabilities and earnings capacity. But if you had been in the AFL system all your working life to date, it might be hard to move to another job that pays that well.) 

8 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Would be handy also if we had a game plan that would actually play to him and the rest of the forwards strengths...

I think the game plan should play to the strengths of your elite players. And our elite players are at the stoppages and behind the ball. Our forwards just need to take their chances.

That's not to say tweaks to ball movement shouldn't be pursued. I think the acquisition of Hunter, the selection of Bowey, Salem, even Howes will hopefully have a natural flow towards greater forward efficiency from the chances our mids can make from contest and the chances the backs can create on slingshot.

Edited January 12, 20232 yr by A F

7 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Probably.

If I were an AFL player and I knew I wouldn't be able to play a game the following season due to a degenerate knee, I'd be seeking a settlement from the club on the last year of the contract and then try to make up the balance of income forgone in another line of work, because I know that a perk of being an AFL player is the connections I've developed.

In the past, players have retired before their contracts have expired.

 

 

 

Contracts are contracts. He owes the club nothing other than fulfilment of his contract. 

The game is brutal and expecting players to do what a club would not - is naive and unfair to someone who literally helped win us a flag not 16 months ago.

14 hours ago, DubDee said:

no I mean before he was injured. He was dropped for Anzac eve game based on poor form.

15 goals from 10 rounds in the top team with the best midfield and a percentage of 161 is average by anyones standards

Like I said, I like him and he is an important player for us, but he was far from a star in 2022

Still disagree DD with you snd my figures for the season  of say 36 goals is no too shabby considering what team play Tmac brings to the table. You don't seem to rate this part of his game DD. 

Oh and where was anyone else performing at CHF in his place if it was so easy? 

Even in 2021 we had trouble with our forwards till near the end of the season Round 20 yo be exact vs Gold Coast got us moving!  BBB hit form then . 
 

 

7 hours ago, 58er said:

Still disagree DD with you snd my figures for the season  of say 36 goals is no too shabby considering what team play Tmac brings to the table. You don't seem to rate this part of his game DD. 

Oh and where was anyone else performing at CHF in his place if it was so easy? 

Even in 2021 we had trouble with our forwards till near the end of the season Round 20 yo be exact vs Gold Coast got us moving!  BBB hit form then . 
 

 

Fair enough mate. Agree to disagree 

18 hours ago, rpfc said:

Contracts are contracts. He owes the club nothing other than fulfilment of his contract. 

The game is brutal and expecting players to do what a club would not - is naive and unfair to someone who literally helped win us a flag not 16 months ago.

Helped us win 2 flags if you consider the work he puts in with the Women.

13 hours ago, DubDee said:

Fair enough mate. Agree to disagree 

Cheers DD agree to disagree. Let's hope Tmac continues his practice form so far ha has revealed in the matches in 2033. 

7 hours ago, 58er said:

Cheers DD agree to disagree. Let's hope Tmac continues his practice form so far ha has revealed in the matches in 2033. 

Would love for Tmac to kick on for another 10 years 58, but that might be asking a bit too much of his battered body! 😉

One of the real strengths of Tmac's game is his areobic capasity to work up and down the ground for a big man.  As well has his strength and contested work forward of centre, he contributes in other ways. I think he plays a pretty important part structurally comming out of defense as he pushes up between the wing - half back and often provides a reliable outlet option for one of our defenders.  Even if he doesn't take clean possession, his size and competitiveness mean he's rarely beaten and at the least usually forces the ball across the boundary and allows us to reset our team defense and players forward of the ball.  If he wins the possession, he often uses his strength to break tackles and move the ball forward quickly with long penetrating kicks deep inside 50 for our other forwards to make use of.

3 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

One of the real strengths of Tmac's game is his areobic capasity to work up and down the ground for a big man.  As well has his strength and contested work forward of centre, he contributes in other ways. I think he plays a pretty important part structurally comming out of defense as he pushes up between the wing - half back and often provides a reliable outlet option for one of our defenders.  Even if he doesn't take clean possession, his size and competitiveness mean he's rarely beaten and at the least usually forces the ball across the boundary and allows us to reset our team defense and players forward of the ball.  If he wins the possession, he often uses his strength to break tackles and move the ball forward quickly with long penetrating kicks deep inside 50 for our other forwards to make use of.

 So accurately put Balls. BBB is a different Cat but skill is different but necessary for us to excel. JVR and Fritsch can both work with both or either. 

3 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Would love for Tmac to kick on for another 10 years 58, but that might be asking a bit too much of his battered body! 😉

Love the Tmac. What you get is what you see. One of the most intelligent footballers around. Great clubman also.

4 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

One of the real strengths of Tmac's game is his areobic capasity to work up and down the ground for a big man.  As well has his strength and contested work forward of centre, he contributes in other ways. I think he plays a pretty important part structurally comming out of defense as he pushes up between the wing - half back and often provides a reliable outlet option for one of our defenders.  Even if he doesn't take clean possession, his size and competitiveness mean he's rarely beaten and at the least usually forces the ball across the boundary and allows us to reset our team defense and players forward of the ball.  If he wins the possession, he often uses his strength to break tackles and move the ball forward quickly with long penetrating kicks deep inside 50 for our other forwards to make use of.

...provided he doesn't (a) try to play on and run around his man (and get caught) if he's marked it or (b) try to take on the difficult 45 degree kick inboard from the back flank.  I love Tommy Mac but before he got shifted forward he did both of these a lot.

Agree with what you're saying though.  I think with some other key targets up forward he will thrive - I think after 2018 in 2019 he was expected to be the main target forward which I don't think suits him.  He gets a lot of contested marks when its kicked to someone else and he comes from the side etc. His endurance and ability to be that getout kick from defence is surely one of his best assets.

Interestingly, Tomlinson won the time trial and so clearly also has an exceptional tank for someone of his size and strength.  But his role seems to be as the backup full back where there's not a lot of room to make use of the asset.  Seems a waste but I guess they have tried him in multiple positions - it seems his speed / agility is what hurts him playing elsewhere.

 

14 hours ago, deelusions from afar said:

...provided he doesn't (a) try to play on and run around his man (and get caught) if he's marked it or (b) try to take on the difficult 45 degree kick inboard from the back flank.  I love Tommy Mac but before he got shifted forward he did both of these a lot.

Agree with what you're saying though.  I think with some other key targets up forward he will thrive - I think after 2018 in 2019 he was expected to be the main target forward which I don't think suits him.  He gets a lot of contested marks when its kicked to someone else and he comes from the side etc. His endurance and ability to be that getout kick from defence is surely one of his best assets.

Interestingly, Tomlinson won the time trial and so clearly also has an exceptional tank for someone of his size and strength.  But his role seems to be as the backup full back where there's not a lot of room to make use of the asset.  Seems a waste but I guess they have tried him in multiple positions - it seems his speed / agility is what hurts him playing elsewhere.

 

DFA  

How long  are you going to demerit Tmac for his defensive quirks which ultimately led to his move forward along with some inconsistencies in disposal.

He Hasnt done those things since 2017 as he has gone forward since. When he played back twice recently ( only 2 occasions since 2017) vs North at Blundstone replacing Tommo when he suffered his ACL injury in the first quarter.only other time was after Norton got away in the second quarter of the Round1 GF replay kicking 3/4 goals prior to half time and Tommy was sent back and quelled The Astronaut. He never made any of his previous errors and his disposal was in the 75/80% and very controlled. He is bigger physically than Maysie and on the odd occasion Tmac should be used to quieten a beast that Stephen only on a very rare occasion I admit fails. Usually our team game overcomes most rampant potential forwards more likely the smalls in reality.

On 1/12/2023 at 3:59 AM, 58er said:

I must admit that I am surprised and disappointed that some of the above  posters have not shown enough faith in Tmac for his role in this coming season. 

Most Demon fans I believe are convinced that the loss of Tommy from Round 11 contributed majorly to our second half inconsistency especially on the forward line. The game plan also IMO and BBB 's injury also were reasons plus our slow ball movement into attack. 
Further to that was the fact that both Spargo and ANB did  not replicate their stellar 2021 seasons and about 20 goals were missing from them. 

Also Trac kicked 10.26 or similar I think  and was also 15/20 goals shy of his 2021 output. Along with tjis was the selection Cttee and Simon not giving Chandler Bedford a decent run and possibly even Bowey Laurie or Howes through form or injury not being tried on the forward line. 

We know that JVR was also not tried but was close to selection from about around 20 as he was named an emergency for the last 6 games.

Fast forward to 2023 and all except Bedford are now available for consideration with Grundy Schache and maybe  later ( or earlier) depending upon form and development in Jefferson ( lightly framed but has very good goal kicking craft) and Sestan ( appears to have excellent kicking skills and robust physique to be competitive) but his endurance and fitness may be a query especially in the early rounds.

How do we come up with the right mix of forwards inc. talls mids and smalls.?

If all are fit and available I would line up in Round1 as:

HF    Chandler   Tmac   Fritsch

FF     Pickett  Brown  Van Rooyen

Either Spargo OR ANB would be in the 5 Interchange selections.

Others to run through or rest or change in the Forward line during the game could be:

Gawn Grundy Petty Petracca Harmes Hunter Schache ( if in 23) Jordan ( if in 23) Sestan (when fit enough and if in form) late in year Verrall or Jefferson May be developed enough or even Kossies mate Trent might be a chance if he joins as a SSP selection.

So we have plenty of choices but firm and fitness plus game plan and connectivity are all important issues yo consider. 

I reckon we all consider that Fritta and Kossie will both continue their 55+ and 40+ goals contributions. 

I also  happen to believe if Tmac plays then another 25/30 goals plus will be added to the mix!! 

We await with baited breath what   Stafford the Coach can do with this eclectic group of goalkickers and forwards in our quest for our 14th Flag.

Chandler won’t start in best 22.  
Goody loves Spargo. He’s always one of the first picked. He has 6 possessions and two goal assists per game.  

25 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Chandler won’t start in best 22.  
Goody loves Spargo. He’s always one of the first picked. He has 6 possessions and two goal assists per game.  

SONS 

Chandler has to start in the 23. He is training like his life depends upon it and has improved and matured and deserves an opportunity to show he can kick goals as well as perform a defensive role.

Goody will lose him if he doesn't play him 

Also our improvement is vital on the forward line snd Chandler and JVR are our future in this in 2023. 

To my mind we have gone from Rags to Riches with regards to Talls. We lost LJ, Mitch Brown, our back-up ruckman, Thommo was coming back from ACL plus we weren’t sure that TMac or BBB would make full recoveries in time for 2023.
I felt that we were extremely exposed prior to the Trade / Draft period, then miraculously in waltzes Brodie Grundy AA Ruck, Josh Schache 200cm back up fwd / ruck / defender, Matthew Jefferson 195 cm future Star forward,   Jed Addams 196 cm future star defender,  Rookie Will Verral talented 200cm ruck / forward plus  Cat B Rookie Kyah Farris - White 206cm Ruckman ex basketballer.plus Rookie Ollie Seston a real Smokey power fwd.!!!

On top of this haul we have a fully fit Adam Tomlinson 195cm Utility, Jacob van Rooyen young tough and talented 194 cm Fwd that is ready to go Plus our Premiership star forwards in TMac and BBB building beautifully for 2023.

Now thinking back on my anxiety during those last to Finals and knowing that LJ had checked out I could not have wished for a better Trade / Draft period to help keep us at the top of the heap. Plus a strong hand for 2023 Draft Period, I follow MFC am I dreaming.!!!!!

22 minutes ago, DeeZone said:

To my mind we have gone from Rags to Riches with regards to Talls. We lost LJ, Mitch Brown, our back-up ruckman, Thommo was coming back from ACL plus we weren’t sure that TMac or BBB would make full recoveries in time for 2023.
I felt that we were extremely exposed prior to the Trade / Draft period, then miraculously in waltzes Brodie Grundy AA Ruck, Josh Schache 200cm back up fwd / ruck / defender, Matthew Jefferson 195 cm future Star forward,   Jed Addams 196 cm future star defender,  Rookie Will Verral talented 200cm ruck / forward plus  Cat B Rookie Kyah Farris - White 206cm Ruckman ex basketballer.plus Rookie Ollie Seston a real Smokey power fwd.!!!

On top of this haul we have a fully fit Adam Tomlinson 195cm Utility, Jacob van Rooyen young tough and talented 194 cm Fwd that is ready to go Plus our Premiership star forwards in TMac and BBB building beautifully for 2023.

Now thinking back on my anxiety during those last to Finals and knowing that LJ had checked out I could not have wished for a better Trade / Draft period to help keep us at the top of the heap. Plus a strong hand for 2023 Draft Period, I follow MFC am I dreaming.!!!!!

I still think there are a lot of question marks about our forward mix.

Our KPFs are either B graders or unproven. Neither Gawn or Grundy have proven to be great forwards. We hope Van Rooyen is the answer. Petty could be a good forward. Jefferson is just a kid. 

8 minutes ago, DeeZone said:

To my mind we have gone from Rags to Riches with regards to Talls. We lost LJ, Mitch Brown, our back-up ruckman, Thommo was coming back from ACL plus we weren’t sure that TMac or BBB would make full recoveries in time for 2023.
I felt that we were extremely exposed prior to the Trade / Draft period, then miraculously in waltzes Brodie Grundy AA Ruck, Josh Schache 200cm back up fwd / ruck / defender, Matthew Jefferson 195 cm future Star forward,   Jed Addams 196 cm future star defender,  Rookie Will Verral talented 200cm ruck / forward plus  Cat B Rookie Kyah Farris - White 206cm Ruckman ex basketballer.plus Rookie Ollie Seston a real Smokey power fwd.!!!

On top of this haul we have a fully fit Adam Tomlinson 195cm Utility, Jacob van Rooyen young tough and talented 194 cm Fwd that is ready to go Plus our Premiership star forwards in TMac and BBB building beautifully for 2023.

Now thinking back on my anxiety during those last to Finals and knowing that LJ had checked out I could not have wished for a better Trade / Draft period to help keep us at the top of the heap. Plus a strong hand for 2023 Draft Period, I follow MFC am I dreaming.!!!!!

Dee Zone 

Its like having an overrun orchard and suddenly the new trees planted are about to bear fruit next spring. We have got a good mix of styles in those talls some having some X factors and others skills that they can hang their hat on for quality and performance.  Some are interchangeable also viz Schache JVR Jed Adams and Tmac. 

BTW Disco  and Maysie say hi as does Rick Lever!!

Over to the Fitness Conditioning  and Coaching  staff to tend to these new plants and to maintain the old ones in a pristine manner which will produce  a bumper crop of fruit around September!