We will not win a flag with ...

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Give Bizzel an opportunity - A team ravaged by injuries, and Biz can't get a run. I'm not sure of Danihers prejudices but Bizzel was our best player 4 seasons ago. It seems now his delisting is all but confirmed as he got dropped last week for 2 first gamers. I'm all for looking for the future but really Daniher needs to provide an answer for this.

100% agree.

Can anyone tell me who Bizzell was playing on against Fremantle?

[Choko 493]

Travis Johnstone simply can't handle a tag. With McLean out, the opposition have targeted TJ as out key man.

Sewell (who we stupidly refused to trade for Ferguson late 2005) rendered him useless. 10 touches from TJ

McVeigh rendered him useless last week. 10 touches from TJ.

There really isn't anything ND can do about the matter, until McLean comes in the side. ND has experimented with TJ in the foward line without success.

Maybe try him at half back this week, or get him to tag a Burgoyne if he has any defensive skills.

You could use TJ's mystery injury as an excuse, but since their playing him, we as supporters expect a 100% output from any player that takes the field....otherwise don't play him.

BBP - other way round mate. They refused to trade Sewell for Fergs.

[Ash35 425]

Melbourne will not win a premiership :

- with 5 or 6 [or more] of your best 22 out injured. I would have thought no team can.

To win a flag, a top 4 finish is vital. Unfortunately for Melbourne, the horror run of injuries so early in the season to important players has placed you in a position of 0-5 with a percentage of 64. This makes top 4 impossible, thus no premiership this year.

- with your current ruck division.

- without at least one more QUALITY key defender. Rivers is top notch, but I don't think that amongst Carrol, Ferguson, Wheatley, Warnock, Bizzell & Holland there is enough quality key defenders to win a flag.

I also like Chellys response.

[Jaded No More 57,964]

Melbourne will not win a premiership :

- with your current ruck division.

Agree with that 100%.

Hopefully Frawley will take care of the key defender situation.

The ruck issue is one that really worries me. I was hoping Jamar would come along nicely this year, and develop into a good ruckman. I don't even care about his influence around the ground, but it's the fact that he isn't so much as breaking-even with his opponent that is a real worry. A part of me sort of hopes that we get a long term injury (to a player well outside our best 22!), and that we then promote Neaves. I know he isn't ready for AFL, not even close, but I would love to test him out just once or twice and see whether there is any future with him.

Sadly, I see no future in either PJ or Jamar.

[mauriesy 6,805]

Melbourne will not win a premiership :

- with 5 or 6 [or more] of your best 22 out injured. I would have thought no team can.

To win a flag, a top 4 finish is vital. Unfortunately for Melbourne, the horror run of injuries so early in the season to important players has placed you in a position of 0-5 with a percentage of 64. This makes top 4 impossible, thus no premiership this year.

- with your current ruck division.

- without at least one more QUALITY key defender. Rivers is top notch, but I don't think that amongst Carrol, Ferguson, Wheatley, Warnock, Bizzell & Holland there is enough quality key defenders to win a flag.

Yes. The team has simply lost too many key players, had to use too many fringe/depth players in key positions, and lacked enough bench rotation to keep up with the pace.

The solution to the ruck won't be found immediately. White will keep deteriorating as a ruckman. Jamar doesn't look the goods around the ground, PJ is not a ruckman, and even if he gets promoted next year Neaves is still a development proposition. That leaves manufacturing a trade of some sort, I believe.

Hopefully Frawley will turn into the one more quality key defender we need. I think ultimately Rivers, Frawley and Carroll/Warnock is the only good tall backline possibility. Time has passed Bizzell, Wheatley, Ferguson and Holland by ... they are simply not quite fast enough, good enough, young enough or strong enough ... in a couple of cases all four.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,213]

BBP - other way round mate. They refused to trade Sewell for Fergs.

I suppose we'll never know the truth.

I was under the impression Ferg told Melb no about the trade.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yes. The team has simply lost too many key players, had to use too many fringe/depth players in key positions, and lacked enough bench rotation to keep up with the pace.

The solution to the ruck won't be found immediately. White will keep deteriorating as a ruckman. Jamar doesn't look the goods around the ground, PJ is not a ruckman, and even if he gets promoted next year Neaves is still a development proposition. That leaves manufacturing a trade of some sort, I believe.

Hopefully Frawley will turn into the one more quality key defender we need. I think ultimately Rivers, Frawley and Carroll/Warnock is the only good tall backline possibility. Time has passed Bizzell, Wheatley, Ferguson and Holland by ... they are simply not quite fast enough, good enough, young enough or strong enough ... in a couple of cases all four.

Great post Maurie and hits a few issues right on the head. I am not so sure Warnock is up to it.

[Tim 2,799]

Travis is majorly disappointing. Too often looking for the cheap option, including arguing with the umpire rather than steaming to the next contest. Particular gripe of mine with him is that he hovers around a team-mate taking a set kick, trying to draw a 50 by getting his opponent to inadvertently run through the mark. Afficionados will recall that this little manoeuvre worked once - about 2 years ago. Unfortunately Trav tries to re-live this glory day rather than work hard to make another option for his team-mate.

Really makes me mad, it happens a lot, and is not inconsistent with an unwillingness (or inability) to work hard. Would not be tolerated at the Swans.

[mauriesy 6,805]

I am not so sure Warnock is up to it.

You can only hope. He's in the same position as Carroll a couple of years ago. While he probably won't ever be a KPP, he might still have more upside as a third tall than Bizzell, Wheatley or Ferguson.

[Guest wheres_jacka]

We will not win a flag with a 16 team nat. comp. Simple as that.

[maggotbasher 0]

This list can't win a flag! Who you all kidding. We're an average team with average players. They had a magnificent season last year. To be honest, I think that's the best we can hope for. This seasons a right off for sure, and there's more to it than the injury list. But even at full strength, we're never gonna compete with the interstate giants for the grand prize. They've got the money, the players, the coaching staff, the home ground advantage. We have none of that. My Dads been a fan all his life. He was a kid when Melbourne last won a flag. The way this now national comp is structured, I certainly don't expect the ultimate glory. Just a gutsy team with the occasional magnificent win.

[Choko 493]

This list can't win a flag! Who you all kidding. We're an average team with average players. They had a magnificent season last year. To be honest, I think that's the best we can hope for. This seasons a right off for sure, and there's more to it than the injury list. But even at full strength, we're never gonna compete with the interstate giants for the grand prize. They've got the money, the players, the coaching staff, the home ground advantage. We have none of that. My Dads been a fan all his life. He was a kid when Melbourne last won a flag. The way this now national comp is structured, I certainly don't expect the ultimate glory. Just a gutsy team with the occasional magnificent win.

I wonder how many people hope that's not true, actually think that's not true, or think that what you've said is clearly not true. I have been thinking about this for quite a while, and whilst I HOPE that it's not true, I think it may be. I reckon lower resourced clubs may have some chance to "pinch" a flag every 10 years or so by bottoming out and getting on a role. But the fact is, in the past 15 years or more even, with the notable exception of Nth Melb, the richer clubs have won the ultimate prize. Is it cyclic? It's hard to think so when we know that the richer are only getting moreso.

We have clubs now able to invest in different recruitment patches, and those with money are doing it, thereby giving them more chance to succeed. We know certain clubs have more in their salaray caps. Others can spend more on expert coaching, technologies and rehabilitation processes. Others can get an extra 1% out of their players by flying them on business class.

It's about odds and probabilities. Odds are against a side like MFC winning a grand final and having success. Odds are more that a side like Collingwood will have success. Success for Melbourne, unless we somehow become powerful again, is greater and harder to achieve. Depressing.

[deeangel 2]

The article in the Herald Sun adds to my post re ND and some people's hasty judgment. There is another thread going on the article.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/com...5E19742,00.html

[Slartibartfast 15,774]

Wheatley was good until injured. IMO he can still play. Not a star but a good footballer in a good team.

Miller has been unfairly bashed, as is often the case when so many have put so much behind an opinion.

TJ will be much better when he can play his natural game rather than have to make up for the loss of McLean and Jones.

Ferguson didn't want to go to Hawthorn so the trade didn't go ahead. I must say I find the criticism of this "failure to trade" quite laughable. I can't remember anyone supporting it at the time, but now the club was "stupid" not to accept it.

[DemonDoug 0]

Byron Pickett was brought in as the icing on the cake to win a flag, unfortunately there no longer is any cake !

[Rampaging Demons 1]

at the start of the year we were being talked up as major players in the business end of the season and i for one agreed - our record over the last three years has been impressive except for major runs of losses which an attempt was made to correct...

we owned the mcg and played our best footy on our home ground - where you have to win a grand final!!

we have a good mixture of youth and experience and the list has been moulded over several years, that it was our time with neitz in rare form and a hard at it midfield with tackling and not being pushed off the ball...

i think we have the list, that with some luck we may still be able to make finals - or that we shape the finals while playing our kids for the experience and reward and more importantly that we continue to have a 100% crack week in week out!!

[Gouga 496]

The article presents a point of view that us as frustrated fans tend to miss.

It has convinced me the Daniher needs the rest of the season to prove himself. I've said it a few times here but if the board waits till the end of the year the decision will be obvious.

The article did make a point about Daniher having to use 34 players. It did not mention the players dropped due to form.

I refer in particular to Bizzell and Ferguson. Both were dropped after one game. Does Daniher expect them to walk into the side and dominate straight away. These two blokes need a chance to prove themselves.

I don't intend this to raise arguements about whever these two blokes are good enough.

My point is that Daniher is going to be given the chance to prove himself, that is what the rest of this season is about. I believe he should be affording the same oppurtunity to players on our list. Namely Bizzell and Ferguson.

It is one of those full circle things, if they repay the faith, they will be in turn helping Daniher keep his job!

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,213]

Ferguson didn't want to go to Hawthorn so the trade didn't go ahead. I must say I find the criticism of this "failure to trade" quite laughable. I can't remember anyone supporting it at the time, but now the club was "stupid" not to accept it.

I thought the trade made perfect sense at the time. Ferguson was in and out of the team in 2005 and was perpetully injured. Sewel was a promosing midfielder who knew how to get a hardball - and this was even before he became a tagging specialist. I can recall many fans bemoaning our lack of 'hard at it' players after 2005. Sewell would've fitted the bill perfectly.

Melbourne aren't ruthless enough at trade time.

[Choko 493]

I thought the trade made perfect sense at the time. Ferguson was in and out of the team in 2005 and was perpetully injured. Sewel was a promosing midfielder who knew how to get a hardball - and this was even before he became a tagging specialist. I can recall many fans bemoaning our lack of 'hard at it' players after 2005. Sewell would've fitted the bill perfectly.

Melbourne aren't ruthless enough at trade time.

That's garbage. I can tell you from Daniher's mouth that the Hawks did not want to give up Sewell, we wanted him and the Hawks wanted him and a draft pick. Is that us not being ruthless? Or is ruthless Fergs and a draft pick for an unproven and 5 game wonder in Sewell?

[Garry Lyon's Leg Hair 0]

TJ once and still is my favourite player. However i really am disappointed. I don't think anyone out there could say that he has shown evidence of a round 1 pick...and i would be astonished if someone did believe he has shown those qualities. I think TJ has got the skills and attributes. Hes a match winner, can kick pracisly and kick goals. Reads the play better than any player, is caragious too. I watched the 2006 Brissy v Melb game an hour ago and TJ had 100% accuracy level. For years i have loved him but yeah i guess saying dissopointed has been said. The 1997 draft consisted of:

1. TJ

2. Ottens

3. Croad

4. Mark Bolton

5. Luke Power

6. James Walker

7. Kris Mackie

8. Tarrant

9. Chad Cornes

10. Shane O'Bree

In TJ's defence there are 4 players i rate more than him: Croad, Power, Tarrant and Cornes. I guess the draft wasnt fantastic: http://www.answers.com/topic/1997-afl-draft (heres the site for thoes of u playing at home)

I honestly believe we should concider trading TJ. I know it will be tough, i will be bitterly sad too but i cant see him getting any better. He is coming into his 10th year. I think we could get a player who will be better (LONG TERM) than TJ has shown and long term is now our focus. There are a number of players like:

Rhyce Prismall(brother of brent) - Plays for Western Jets and played Metro last year as a bottom ager. Listed as 189cm/86kg and plays as an athletic third tall type but can play midfield

Matthew Kruizer - Very promising ruckmen, 197 cm's now and 95 kg's. Got great disposal, is the a tap ruckman in the U16 age group in australia. Vic Metro U16 MVP, Runner up Vic Metro U16 best and fairest and to cap off a great carnival AIS selection.

Chris Varsamarkis. This kid is intimidating, he is huge. He can kick amazing on both feet. Left Footer, but does use both, quite a powerful kick on the left. Played HBF/HFF.

Meese - Tap ruckman who gets his fair share of the ball all over the ground. Can play forward

Dan Curry: a 196cm ruckmen with potential. Made U16 Vic Metro side

Brett Meredith: midfielder 184cm who played 6/7 games for knights U18's this year. Very good in congestion, he is an inside midfielder capable of busting open packs with his 80+ kg frame. He is a great finisher, gets forward and kicks goals with his clean foot skills. He has a lot of pace and endurance. Vic Metro U16 rep in 2005, has what it takes to go all the way.

Tim Bongetti - 193 cm, 91 kilos and plays FF for Knights. Very, Very quick for a man 193 cm. Best quality: pack marks, weakness: height for a FF

Veszpermi, Meredith, Cotchin, Stanton, Tantis-Hall (all vic metro/ais)

I really like the look of Kruizer tho. I have said this many times on demonland but this kid has the goods. He is tall enough, has excellent speed and can absolutly domonate the ruck. Has excelent communication with his midfielders of where to run and timing so they can collect when the tap happens.

I am really excited with this years draft and will pop down to TAC games at box hill throu the year. To be totally honest i think melb should come last...i really do. I cant see us being a contender with Jamar and Johnson. We need some quality players that will be no doubt AA ruckman in the future. I also think we need a FF player...perhaps Bongetti. But to move forward i think TJ must be sacrifised as sad as it is to say.

The other players that will never win us a premiership are:

Miller - in my opinion is trade bait and dunn being #1 CHF will take twice as quick to develop if in the 22 week in week out

Brown - Gets a lot of possessions but has ALWAYS worried me. Being at the games watching him he gets himself into all sorts of trouble and is forced to rush. I ALWAYS cringe when the balls in his hands in the backline as he more often than not plays on and gets tackled or puts himself under pressure.

Apart from thoes 2 i dont think there would be any other players. I dont think this is an issue yet as we will not make a grand final this year, we must however look at the future and trade Miller and TJ. Anyway thats my point of view and although off track a bit, im excited about the young kids in the draft and will be shattered if we cant land Kruizer

Not sure who was taken from 10 onwards in that draft but I would rate Johnstone second behind Chad Cornes. Cornes was awesome last week v St Kilda, a more versatile player you will not find exept maybe Kouta & Hird at their peaks. Cornes is the only player in that ten I would rather see in the Red & Blue than TJ even then I reckon its a close call.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,213]

That's garbage. I can tell you from Daniher's mouth that the Hawks did not want to give up Sewell, we wanted him and the Hawks wanted him and a draft pick. Is that us not being ruthless? Or is ruthless Fergs and a draft pick for an unproven and 5 game wonder in Sewell?

Well if Daniher said that then thats fine...but do I take your word for it?

Appears to be two different versions of events.

1) Ferg refusing to go

2) Hawks demanding a draft pick and Ferg.

So which is it?

And as for ruthless, just look at our extrodinary activity last November

Akermanis, Tarrant, Polak (who had been in Richmond's best 5 players)...but oh no, ND and gang were very content with our stocks and ready to contend for the flag.

[Ash35 425]

Not sure who was taken from 10 onwards in that draft but I would rate Johnstone second behind Chad Cornes. Cornes was awesome last week v St Kilda, a more versatile player you will not find exept maybe Kouta & Hird at their peaks. Cornes is the only player in that ten I would rather see in the Red & Blue than TJ even then I reckon its a close call.

Luke Power?

[Guest Schtacker]

WE WILL NOT WIN A FLAG IF ANYBODY READS A RIDICULOUS THREAD SUGGESTING WE DROP OUR MOST GIFTED PLAYER

[Choko 493]

Well if Daniher said that then thats fine...but do I take your word for it?

Appears to be two different versions of events.

1) Ferg refusing to go

2) Hawks demanding a draft pick and Ferg.

So which is it?

And as for ruthless, just look at our extrodinary activity last November

Akermanis, Tarrant, Polak (who had been in Richmond's best 5 players)...but oh no, ND and gang were very content with our stocks and ready to contend for the flag.

You can take it from me or not. That's fine. You don't know me, I don't know you, so make up your own mind.

But think about it. Most players actually cannot refuse to be traded when push turns to shove. Also, if a player knows he hasn't got the faith of the coach, and another side wants him, what do you think the most likely scenario is?

And not trading this year was a concerted choice we made, not lack of ruthlessness. Aker chose his club. Which one of the other 2 do you think would have enhanced our pre-injury list? And for whom?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Well if Daniher said that then thats fine...but do I take your word for it?

Appears to be two different versions of events.

1) Ferg refusing to go

2) Hawks demanding a draft pick and Ferg.

So which is it?

And as for ruthless, just look at our extrodinary activity last November

Akermanis, Tarrant, Polak (who had been in Richmond's best 5 players)...but oh no, ND and gang were very content with our stocks and ready to contend for the flag.

I take it your in the trade for trade sake camp.

Akermanis has been injured.

Tarrant has done little.

Everitt has been ordinary.

Polak still has the jury out. Getting in Richmond's best is hardly vindication of much.

So tell me would you have been happy to trade Frawley and Petterd for any of them?

And what would they have provided us this year?

You know what, we were ruthless.... in not trading for other people's damaged goods.

Overall, trading is overrated because no side will readily trades their youth, their future for flawed footballers.

Its amazing how so many people list underperforming MFC players for a trade when no Club could be that stupid to contemplate it.