TRAINING: Monday 9th January 2023

[Wodjathefirst 2,632]

1 hour ago, Demon17 said:

I'm with you Monbon.  I have never been more optimistic before a season than this year. Many reasons for that, but I ssupect even the players know they faded in finals for probably health reasons, and that a Flag is there to be won this year.

Agree, I think we the fans (or maybe just me) also are/ am taking a bit of a reset this year.

2021 was special. Felt early on in the season that we were real contenders. Loved the whole season for obvious reasons.

Expectation in 2021 was that we’d go back to back at the G. Turned out to be a most nervous and frustrating season being a supporter. Many reasons, pressure of being the hunted, injuries, connectivity with forwards, supporter negativity syndrome, to name a few.

This year I would like to think that with a bit of luck we could win the minor premiership and then the big one. Realistically would  accept top two finish and to be considered serious contenders. Failing that, top four finish and contenders. 

Failing that, top eight finish and making up numbers wouldn’t cut it for me.  Finishing outside the eight, unthinkable.

I am looking forward to experiencing an exciting 2023 following the Dees🤞

[dee-tox 4,835]

14 hours ago, The heart beats true said:

Theres far too many Birkenstocks on display here for my liking. 

Perhaps more disturbing is Harmes wearing Crocs... the 2005 fashion before Birkenstocks!

[binman 42,986]

On 1/9/2023 at 3:13 PM, Tough Kent said:

I got down to training today. We settled on the fence. Choco Williams came over for a chat. My two boys played soccer with Leo and Bella McDonald, kids of Tom. It was good to be back.

There was no Oliver, Petty, Pickett or Lachie Hunter today. Goody and Ooze were MIA. Troy Chaplin seemed to be calling the shots. Kye Turner and Kynan Brown (son of Nathan) joined the main group. Trent Burgoyne was on a modified program. Joel Smith and Andy Moniz-Wakefield were in re-hab. Gus Brayshaw did a lot of things with the main group, but is on some sort of modified program. James Harmes was wearing a green hat signifying that he was a ‘non-contact’ player.

First up was the dreaded 2km time trial. The players were split into 4 groups of similar running ability. The two more able groups went first. Adam Tomlinson led the top group from start to finish, looking very fit in beating home Nibbla in second place. JJ came third, closely followed by Ed Langdon. For those interested in times, I timed the third group. Rick Lever won this group in a time of 6:30, Bailey Laurie not far behind him in 6:36. Josh Schache won the big fella’s group, ahead of a fast finishing Gawn. Ben Brown really impressed me. He hammered home behind Max and looked the best he has since late 2021. Brodie Grundy seemed to labour, which is not surprising considering his injury problems. The young blokes struggled. Will Verral in particular, took over 8 minutes to complete his 2kms and he had Jack Viney for company on his last lap, with Vin yapping to him the whole way home.  

The warm up drills were focused on quick ball movement and hitting short targets under pressure. One ball movement drill I found fascinating was red v whites. The whites (defenders) would move the ball up the line. The reds would receive the ball at half back and sling shot the ball forward through quick hands and feet into the corridor. The forwards would all set up high across half forward. They would then lead far and wide, especially back into the open spaces of the forward line towards the goal square. There were no indiscriminate kicks inside 50. Each kick, be it long or short, was towards a leading Brown, McDonald or Fritsch, mostly moving back into an empty forward zone. This was very different to our long kicks into pockets last year.

I won’t ramble any further. I’m happy to answer any questions.

Great post TK, many thanks.

You def get votes for the inaugural binman's track watcher of the year award for going to the effort of timing the 2k trials. Kudos.

The drills you highlight are really interesting. Both are more evidence that Goody is well and truly open to learning from other teams.

The focus on hitting short targets under pressure is great to see because this was a really big issue for us last season.

There was a lot of focus on inside 50 entries, but i reckon a bigger issue for us last year was missing short targets in our defensive half of the ground when under intense pressure (and sometime under zero pressure - Steve May says hi).

Those missed short kicks don't get the attention that missed kick inside 50 get but have a bigger impact in my opinion (because the latter might cost us an immediate shot at goal, whereas the former might result in an opposition goal AND might cost us a goal because a potential scoring chain has broken down. And to boot, a turnover in our defensive half cedes territory, whereas with a missed kick inside 50 we still have a decent chance of trapping it in our forward half).  

As i have banged on about over the years, we have way too many players with poor kicking skills. I suspect this is the key reason we moved Hunty on.

Pressure (and fatigue for that matter) exacerbate poor technique, so its great to see they are specifically focusing on this skill.

The Swans have a number of players who are above average kicks and don't cede too many easy turnovers with missed short kicks in defence. Same goes for the pies. 

Nick Daicos is close to the best proponent of that critical short kick in the AFL (Daniel probably has him covered - just - it's crazy to think Daicos is so young given how important h was for the pies last season - he is sure to find it harder next year as teams will put a lot of work into him, you'd think).

And i reckon the cats also have us well and truly covered for kicking skills. 

So, three of our key rivals last season had a distinct advantage over us in terms of missing fewer short kicks under pressure.

That said, we really missed a fit and firing Salem last year - an issue that was made worse by Bowey dropping form and then being dropped. If you take Bowey and Salem out of our back half, who else in that unit could be relied on to hit 75% plus percent of short targets? 

The other interesting drill is the one where players 'lead far and wide, especially back into the open spaces of the forward line towards the goal square'.

This perfectly describes the method used by the cats last season - one of only a handful of key differences between our method and the one they pivoted to last season (which was ours basically). 

The method was super effective for the Cats, in large part because it really suited the players they have.

It allowed Cameron to play high up the ground, basically as a half forward flanker, and use his beautiful long left foot kick to advantage.

And if he isn't delivering it inside 50, Cameron has the athleticism to run towards goal from outside 50 and get separation, the skill to mark the ball as he runs with the flight of it, and of course the skill to finish. 

Creating space inside 50 also increases the likelihood the Cats can engineer a Hawkins one on one - which is smart as he is the best one on one mark in the AFL in my opinion.

That space also really helped Tyson Stengle as he was able to use his ball winning skills, one on one ability and pace to great effect. 

Fritter, and perhaps Schache (coincidentally both left footers like Cameron), have a similar athletic profile and skill set to Cameron, so i could see both playing a similar role.

In Kozzie, we have a player who can play the Stengle role.

I'm not sure we have a Hawkins equivalent (who does?). I would say, of our forwards, Fritter is our best one on one mark, but obviously he doesn't have Hawkins' sheer strength.

Perhaps not for the next couple of seasons, but ultimately i think JVR will be our Hawkins.

Watching JVR live, you can see he is a natural forward like Hawkins in that his first instinct is to get optimal body position against his opponent to control the drop zone.

And he looks bloody strong now, so in 2 or 3 seasons he will be a beast.

Edited January 10, 2023 by binman

[Demonland 72,213]

 

[Demonland 72,213]

 

[Demonland 72,213]

 

[Demonland 72,213]

 

[Monbon 1,840]

2 hours ago, Wodjathefirst said:

Agree, I think we the fans (or maybe just me) also are/ am taking a bit of a reset this year.

2021 was special. Felt early on in the season that we were real contenders. Loved the whole season for obvious reasons.

Expectation in 2021 was that we’d go back to back at the G. Turned out to be a most nervous and frustrating season being a supporter. Many reasons, pressure of being the hunted, injuries, connectivity with forwards, supporter negativity syndrome, to name a few.

This year I would like to think that with a bit of luck we could win the minor premiership and then the big one. Realistically would  accept top two finish and to be considered serious contenders. Failing that, top four finish and contenders. 

Failing that, top eight finish and making up numbers wouldn’t cut it for me.  Finishing outside the eight, unthinkable.

I am looking forward to experiencing an exciting 2023 following the Dees🤞

I hope that by the season's end if we have been struck by various plagues and infamies and crook justice from umpires,  my post won't be seen as Monbon does The Moz...

[IRW 1,387]

On 1/9/2023 at 12:10 PM, Demongirl35 said:

Great report

JVR with out a hair cut in Pettys number took me a while to realise who it was.

Max was taking great marks in the forward line but he’s kicking worries me

After the drills at the end of the session they did some running and Benny brown, Jefferson and Kyah Farris-White led the way. Was really surprised after the session they had and everyone else looking cooked. One stage Farris-White led by about 10 metres from The group. Pig pulled out of the running towards the end with some sort of complaint 
 

Really liked the way Rivers was training also. Seems to have some spark back.

Everyone except the coach knows Max should be behind the ball in defence 9 times out of 10.

Goodwin knows it as well but hes likely to go with stubborn habit just to prove he's boss

 

[picket fence 17,170]

3 hours ago, djr said:

It's more difficult to hit the scoreboard if he's playing higher up the field, as he was last season compared to the premiership year.

Won't get many games this year unless injury cruels us I just cannot see him getting a game with Chandler, a better goal kicking option. Forget pressure acts and ball use, I want goals and plenty of them.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,787]

3 hours ago, binman said:

 

As i have banged on about over the years, we have way too many players with poor kicking skills. I suspect this is the key reason we moved Hunty on.

Pressure (and fatigue for that matter) exacerbate poor technique, so its great to see they are specifically focusing in this skill.

The Swans have a number of players who are above average kicks and don't cede too many easy turnovers with missed short kicks in defence. Same goes for the pies. 

Nick Daicos is close to the best best proponent of that critical short kick in the AFL (Daniel probably has him covered - just - it's crazy to think Daicos is so young given how important h was for the pies last season - he is sure to find it harder next year as teams will put a lot of work into him you'd think).

And i reckon the cats also have us well and truly covered for kicking skills. 

So three of our key rivals last season had a distinct advantage over us in terms of missing fewer short kicks under pressure.

That said, we really missed a fit and firing Salem last year - an issue that was made worse by Bowey dropping form and then being dropped. If you take Bowey and Salem out of our back half, who else in that unit could be relied on to hit 75% plus percent of short targets? 

The other interesting drill is the one where players 'lead far and wide, especially back into the open spaces of the forward line towards the goal square'.

This perfectly describes the method used by the cats last season - one of only a handful of key differences between our method and theirs. 

The method was super effective for the Cats, in large part because it really suited the players they have.

It allowed Cameron to play high up the ground, basically as a half forward flanker, and use his beautiful long left foot kick to advantage.

And if he isn't delivering it inside 50, Cameron has the athleticism to run towards goal from outside 50 and get separation, the skill to mark the ball as he runs with the flight of it, and of course the skill to finish. 

Creating space inside 50 also increases the likelihood the Cats can engineer a Hawkins one on one - which is smart as he is the best one on one mark in the AFL in my opinion.

That space also really helped Tyson Stengle as he was able to use his ball winning skills, one on one ability and pace to great effect. 

Fritter, and perhaps Schache (coincidentally both left footers like Cameron), have a similar athletic profile and skill set to Cameron, so i could see both playing a similar role.

In Kozzie, we have a player who can play the Stengle role.

I'm not sure we have a Hawkins equivalent (who does?). I would say, of our forwards, Fritter is our best one on one mark, but obviously he doesn't have Hawkins' sheer strength.

Perhaps not for the next couple of seasons, but ultimately i think JVR will be our Hawkins.

Watching JVR live, you can see he is a natural forward like Hawkins in that his first instinct is to get optimal body position against his opponent to control the drop zone.

And he looks bloody strong now, so in 2 or 3 seasons he will be a beast.

I was under the impression we didn't move Hunt on. Rather, he was offered a contract on better terms (either a longer contract or more money or both) by West Coast which we were not prepared to match. The effect is that Hunt has left us, but I believe he had an offer from the club to stay. Therefore, to say he was "moved on" is probably unfair on both Hunt and the club, even though the end result is the same.

[binman 42,986]

6 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I was under the impression we didn't move Hunt on. Rather, he was offered a contract on better terms (either a longer contract or more money or both) by West Coast which we were not prepared to match. The effect is that Hunt has left us, but I believe he had an offer from the club to stay. Therefore, to say he was "moved on" is probably unfair on both Hunt and the club, even though the end result is the same.

You could well be right, but my sense was we encouraged him to 'explore his options'.  Which is code for moving a player on.

I concede i might be imagining that, but if we were keen to keep him we would have done so.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,787]

15 minutes ago, binman said:

You could well be right, but my sense was we encouraged him to 'explore his options'.  Which is code for moving a player on.

I concede i might be imagining that, but if we were keen to keep him we would have done so.

I think it's fair to say we were keen to keep him...but not at the price WCE was prepared to pay. I'm sorry to see him go, but also understand that we have a salary cap to maintain. We don't want to be in the positions that Collingwood, Gold Coast and others have been in where good players have been lost because of salary cap/list mismanagement. In fact, I'd go as far as saying it's closer to a win-win than any other combination. Hunt gets a better deal and we aren't forced to overpay for a player. 

[Slartibartfast 17,297]

1 hour ago, IRW said:

Everyone except the coach knows Max should be behind the ball in defence 9 times out of 10.

Goodwin knows it as well but hes likely to go with stubborn habit just to prove he's boss

 

 I spoke to someone who played footy at a much higher standard than me and I said something similar about Max playing behind the ball.  He said that he did that role for one year and it nearly finished his career as he was continually hit from behind by large forwards.  He said it shortened his career.

I agree that Max plays the role very well, but I also want him playing in 3 or 4 years' time.  I fear if we make him play this role he won't.

The proposition that Goodwin won't play Max behind the ball "just to prove he's boss" is so silly it barely warrants comment, but I have because the continual sledging of Goodwin, who managed to get us to second on the ladder at the end of the H&A season, is just tiresome.

[Stiff Arm 4,419]

Come on Picket Fence, your blatent bias against Spargo ignores the fact he has created a lot of scoring opportunities in the last couple of years and is probably our best kick inside 50. 

Spargs was down last year on his 2021 season, but is still above Chandler in the pecking order.

Time will tell, but I'm personally more focused on score assists than who kicks them.

I hear players in interviews going on about trusting the process, maybe we should too

[dazzledavey36 54,947]

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

Won't get many games this year unless injury cruels us I just cannot see him getting a game with Chandler, a better goal kicking option. Forget pressure acts and ball use, I want goals and plenty of them.

Goals are created through manic pressure acts and slick ball use going inside 50.

[djr 1,503]

2 hours ago, picket fence said:

Won't get many games this year unless injury cruels us I just cannot see him getting a game with Chandler, a better goal kicking option. Forget pressure acts and ball use, I want goals and plenty of them.

Your view dates back 30 years to the Geelong era where their game plan was full-on attack. Every game was a shootout. No pressure acts to be seen. 

[Chelly 810]

FWIW, Toby Bedford won the 2k time trial at GWS training yesterday.

[AzzKikA 2,371]

How's Salem going?

[tiers 2,840]

There's behind the ball and then there's behind the ball but in front of the gorilla forwards.

Two different strategies. Behind the ball can be anywhere from back 50m to forward 50 but in the eyeline of the oppos when they kick. Can be either flank or in the corridor. Whatever, and wherever, it takes to disturb the oppos preferred option.

Behind the ball but in front of gorilla forwards is static and potentially wasteful. Locking up a ruckman in the backline would reduce his effectiveness around the ground. Better to stop the ball getting to the gorillas than having to clash with them.

Playing Maxie and Grundy together on the ground would create a massive mismatch that other teams might find hard to manage. On the other hand they might try to play a smart shortie (eg Sparrow, Gus equivalent) to force our rucks to run around and tire.

2023 could be fun, tactically.

GO DEES

 

[dworship 3,342]

3 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I was under the impression we didn't move Hunt on. Rather, he was offered a contract on better terms (either a longer contract or more money or both) by West Coast which we were not prepared to match. The effect is that Hunt has left us, but I believe he had an offer from the club to stay. Therefore, to say he was "moved on" is probably unfair on both Hunt and the club, even though the end result is the same.

Mrs Dw spoke to him at the B&F and he was devastated, he didn't want to leave. When you say "moved on" what happens at a season end exit interview is the Club thanks you for your contribution but says your manager should explore your options. There is no nice way to do this but there is a respectful way.

For the record; I would have kept him and not JS however age may have been a factor.

Edited January 10, 2023 by dworship
Furda and betta particulars

[monoccular 17,431]

22 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

I would. van Rooyen is the only 1 that should debut. If we have a good year it would be hard to see any youngster get a gig. It will be tough for spots.

I can’t remember if it was Parkin or Pagan, but a very successful multi premiership coach once said that a team needed to turn over at least 3 or 4 new players every year for sustained success.  
 

IMVHO we were a bit too comfortable / conservative in 2022 in failing to at least in “easy / safe games” mid season NB North and WCE in not giving some better performers at Casey a run  

 

[IRW 1,387]

3 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

 I spoke to someone who played footy at a much higher standard than me and I said something similar about Max playing behind the ball.  He said that he did that role for one year and it nearly finished his career as he was continually hit from behind by large forwards.  He said it shortened his career.

I agree that Max plays the role very well, but I also want him playing in 3 or 4 years' time.  I fear if we make him play this role he won't.

The proposition that Goodwin won't play Max behind the ball "just to prove he's boss" is so silly it barely warrants comment, but I have because the continual sledging of Goodwin, who managed to get us to second on the ladder at the end of the H&A season, is just tiresome.

Yeah I acknowledge the cheap shot but not how Max should be used.

He's been playing behind the ball for several seasons and getting molested in every contest no matter where he is

in fact my memory tells me he gets more stand alone marks down the back then he does up forward. 

That depends on forward pressure causing opposition sides to go forward  with  desperate  bombs( sort of like MFC forward thrusts at times)

 

[DEE fence 5,016]

3 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

 nearly finished his career as he was continually hit from behind by large forwards. 

Re Gawn, I am so sick of all the cheap shots he wears, he gets enough in a fair ruck contest, and I know I'm reaching here, but it reminds me of the way Pele and Maradona got hacked. While I fully endorse the fairer cleaner version of the game where coward punches and elbows have become relics, but I think there is still a need for a enforcer type role where the hurt is put on players who take deliberate cheap shots at Gawn, who at the end of the day has always been a ball player. Something akin to a corkie that stops the sniping player being able to run with him, wishful thinking I guess, but the umpiring of Gawn has been a travesty the last 3 years. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by DEE fence
stream of consciousness

[binman 42,986]

3 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

 I spoke to someone who played footy at a much higher standard than me and I said something similar about Max playing behind the ball.  He said that he did that role for one year and it nearly finished his career as he was continually hit from behind by large forwards.  He said it shortened his career.

I agree that Max plays the role very well, but I also want him playing in 3 or 4 years' time.  I fear if we make him play this role he won't.

The proposition that Goodwin won't play Max behind the ball "just to prove he's boss" is so silly it barely warrants comment, but I have because the continual sledging of Goodwin, who managed to get us to second on the ladder at the end of the H&A season, is just tiresome.

Mutiple good points sb. 

The best rucks of the 70s - Teasdale, Round, Len Thompson and my personal favourite Gary Dempsey, all dropped back a kick behind play 'into the hole' in defence heaps of time in each match. Par for the course.

And got smashed from pillar to post every single game. Brutal.

Whilst plenty of ruckman since the 70s have copped lots of treatment, head knocks and big hits, none copped the consistent shellacking the players mentioned above copped week in week put. 

With one exception.

The treatment maxy has copped in the last two seasons, and in particular in 2022, has been shameful -and he doesn't even drop back as often as Dempsey et al.

So many hits to the head. So may huge body checks and being cannoned into.

I reckon it goes unnoticed by non dees fans because Max hardly ever retaliates or remonstrates. 

It infuriates me.

I really hope the club has a quite word in the off season to the AFL and umpires. Maxy deserves more protection.

So, I'm with you sb. The last thing I want us maxy to sit in the leading lanes down back and provide opposition forwards and resting rucks the perfect opportunity to do more damage.

In some ways Jackson leaving might be a blessing in disguise because Grundy can give him a proper 50 50 chop out from the get go and allow maxy to play forward

Edited January 10, 2023 by binman