Hawks racism allegations (merged thread)

[layzie 34,121]

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

You got that right!

Fixed

[John Crow Batty 8,879]

Tasmanian Kangaroos?

[layzie 34,121]

4 hours ago, layzie said:

The only losers in all this are North.

Let's get some clarity behind this comment. I chose to keep it strictly to the subject title and in this case I still believe the only losers out of Clarkson leaving indefinitely are North and North fans.

If you want to expand it to the entire investigation and saga then of course there are many people who have had their lives severely affected. We had a whole thread on it late last year and I've got no intention of making this a carbon copy of that thread. 

[picket fence 17,730]

4 hours ago, layzie said:

The only losers in all this are North.

Norf are fast becoming irrelevant!

[picket fence 17,730]

37 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

It's pretty quick to be going with this but he's right.

It's why I, and many others, were so against the simplistic "we sucked at drafting" argument that pervaded on here in 2007-14.

How were Cale Morton, Jack Watts, Jack Trengove, Jack Grimes, even Jimmy Toumpas, supposed to reach their best in the mess that was 2007-14 Melbourne?

It's precisely why someone like Sheezel or Larkey or LDU would look around and think "what would my career/life be like if I was playing for [insert probably any other club except Hawthorn or West Coast]". 

Rob Flower and others did it through some dismal times, dont forget!! Ex of being drafted, if your club is sheeeit for whatever reason then you unfortunately are stuck, however as the hyphen proved if you are desperate enough you CAN leave!

Edited May 18, 2023 by picket fence

[monoccular 17,607]

Pure speculation on my part, but as I understand Clarko has been a big fan of having a Tasmanian team.  
Was he perhaps given to believe by AFL that North would be moved to Tasmania, and then the advent of the 19th team he felt another knife in the back from HQ?

[demosaw 1,108]

10 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

I'm predicting Ratten will be interim coach for 6 games, based solely on that being how long he covered in his acting seasons at each of Carlton and St Kilda.

Ratten still has quite some work to do to also be the first person sacked at three different clubs while having a 50/50 or better win-loss ratio!

North are sick and doing a RAT

Edited May 18, 2023 by demosaw
Syntax

[No10 461]

20 hours ago, binman said:

I said it at the time - and i'll say it again now.

It was of course wholly predictable that the media would focus on the alleged actions of Fagan and Clarkson because they are perfect click bait - but the focus on them from the get go was, and remains, a dangerous furphy.

(to be crystal clear I’m not suggesting Clarkson and/or Fagan did not do the things they have been accused of in the report, or minimising those allegations in any way. But we don’t know the specifics – they are contested and presumably will be addressed in any investigation. However, WE DO KNOW from the report there was poor cultural practices at the HFC and examples of very questionable cultural competency).

But not only is the hyper focus on Clarkson and Fagan unfair on them, it completely distracts from the critical questions that should be asked – was Hawthorn culturally unsafe, what quality and governance system were in place to make sure what has been alleged could not happen, what policies and procedures were in place, was there systemic racism at play etc.  

I have been involved in  accreditation, audit and review processes for a long time. One of the fundamentals of quality reviewing and auditing is that unless an individual is actively disregarding policy (and the obligation is on the org to make sure employees are aware of all relevant policies and how to comply with them), the fault falls on the organisation – in short if there is some system break down or poor practice it is the org not the individual who is at fault.  

For the sake of argument, let’s say that broadly speaking some of the more salacious specifics are contested. But it is accepted that senior coaching staff met with young Aboriginal players IN THEIR HOMES to discuss sensitive family related issues (like living arrangements, relationships) WITHOUT them having their own support networks present or involving family (even at that point in time, involving family was accepted good cultural practice – at least it was in the community sector where I work. One only needs to listen to Kozzie talk about his contract negotiations to understand why).

The first question should not be what specifically those coaches said or did in those meetings, but rather were they operating in accordance with the club policies and within HFC cultural practice frameworks – and did they even exist (and if so what ongoing training did staff receive to help them understand them and build cultural competencies and how are/were they reviewed to ensure staff are complying with them)?

What were the supervision practices in place to provide a forum to explore exactly such practice issues and support fidelity and adherence with the relevant policies?   

Another question is did Hawthorn, as part of accepted good governance, regularly review their cultural policies and practices? A related question is why did these issues take so long to come to light (at the minimum suggesting players did not feel comfortable raising issues)?

What were their complaints policies, were players aware of the complaint policies, were they encouraged and supported to make complaints, was the environment supportive of them doing so, what was the exit interview policy, what was the compliant management system, were these polices and systems adhered to etc etc.  

Very few, if any of these questions have been asked by the media. Almost all the focus and criticism has been on Fagan and Clarkson. It should be on HAWTHORN, who have copped very little blow back. 

And unhelpfully the focus has now drilled down on specifics that are always going to be grey, contestable and dependant on perception. 

For example Clarkson framed his discussion about partners as being an example of caring for his players. And that sounds reasonable. But from a cultural perspective, such a conversation is likely to be traumatic for an Aboriginal player (for example because family members were part of the stolen generation), particularly a young player trying to find his feet and a regular senior spot. And that is not even factoring in enormous power imbalance at play.

Maybe Clarkson didn’t understand the cultural sensitivities?   But if not, that’s on HAWTHORN, not Clarkson – unless of course Hawthorn can point to a strong cultural competence system and a rigorous process of ensuring compliance with that system. I may be wrong, but I’ll bet my bottom dollar they didn’t have one in place. And if they did, it failed because they clearly didn’t act at the time. 

The media has been playing the man, not the ball – and the Hawthorn Football Club (the ball in this hamfsited analogy) should have pushed back on this narrative and accepted their responsibility but instead allowed two former employees, one of whom their President is in open conflict with, to basically be the fall guys. 

I'm not trying to make Fagan and Clarkson the victims here (which by the by raises yet another reason why the focus on them is so damaging -  the commentary has devolved into how unfair it has been on Fagan and Clarkson and debating their innocence or guilt).  The actual victims are the Aboriginal players and their families. That is where the focus should be

But they are victims not of Clarkson and Fagan’s, butr their employers – the Hawthorn Football Club. It is the Hawthorn Football Club who is responsible for ensuring a safe working environment for all it staff - players and coaches alike.

And it is the Hawthorn board and senior management who should be bearing the brunt of all of this, not two of their ex employees.

Great analysis.

Here are my 2 predictions, highly cynical.

Clarkson walk away is planned show of emotional weight. He’ll return before the season finishes.  Gives the media exactly what they want, even though it’s not the real point.

Hawks to win this weekend against WC. AFL can’t let them have pick 1 this year.

[Redleg 41,717]

4 minutes ago, No10 said:

Great analysis.

Here are my 2 predictions, highly cynical.

Clarkson walk away is planned show of emotional weight. He’ll return before the season finishes.  Gives the media exactly what they want, even though it’s not the real point.

Hawks to win this weekend against WC. AFL can’t let them have pick 1 this year.

There is a real chance that WC would prefer a top WA kid, so if they finish bottom, they could look to trade 1 for picks that would get them more top talent, but still getting the boy they want first anyway.

 

[layzie 34,121]

1 hour ago, monoccular said:

Pure speculation on my part, but as I understand Clarko has been a big fan of having a Tasmanian team.  
Was he perhaps given to believe by AFL that North would be moved to Tasmania, and then the advent of the 19th team he felt another knife in the back from HQ?

Good speculation though, ticks all the boxes. 

[No10 461]

5 minutes ago, Redleg said:

There is a real chance that WC would prefer a top WA kid, so if they finish bottom, they could look to trade 1 for picks that would get them more top talent, but still getting the boy they want first anyway.

 

… and if WC trade to a team with around pick 5, 18 and 23, perhaps.

Couldn’t have Clarkson coach a huge legacy game. Nice stagecraft from the AFL, perhaps.

[Redleg 41,717]

4 minutes ago, No10 said:

… and if WC trade to a team with around pick 5, 18 and 23, perhaps.

Couldn’t have Clarkson coach a huge legacy game. Nice stagecraft from the AFL, perhaps.

In my scenario that could happen, if they were sure their boy wasn’t taken at 2, 3 or 4.

[dees189227 12,432]

So if neither Fagan or Clarkson are willing to go to mediation how does this get resolved? 

The courts or what 

[layzie 34,121]

9 hours ago, picket fence said:

Rob Flower and others did it through some dismal times, dont forget!! Ex of being drafted, if your club is sheeeit for whatever reason then you unfortunately are stuck, however as the hyphen proved if you are desperate enough you CAN leave!

Haha, The Hyphen. I like it. 

[58er 6,661]

9 hours ago, Demonsterative said:

Whilst this situation is not good on any level, it does not, in any way exonerate Clarkson from what could be racist behaviour. The process is flawed, but if true, the behaviour warrants accountability. If wrong, the AFL needs to be hung out to dry. 

The Hawthorn saga  has been abominably handled by both HFC and the AFL it being a long drawn out affair ( about 3 times longer than Gill predicted) snd all are awaiting the outcome. 

Naturally  all concerned in this Enquiry are anxious and extremely frustrated how it's been drawn out so long.

At the moment  no one looks like being a  winner and with mediation if it's carried out will probably leave some participants still feeling neglected and possibly even overlooked. 

With the fact that the three  main persons involved still not having had any opportunity to state their case or answer any specific allegations.

It's not hard to understand it's putting real pressure on some more than others. 

I have no idea who if any will be judged guilty or even charged. Now that Alistair Clarkson has succumbed after all this time, 9 months on nearly it has with his remarks earlier this week and walking  away needing the time to safeguard his health It may prove a godsend for North  as Ratten will be like a breath of fresh air to the players no doubt.

Clarko to me has not resembled the same person and his coaching to me seems rather tempered and stifled. He has obviously been affected by the whole affair and maybe he is genuinely stressed with its results and the North lack of success and results. 

Let's remember many of the families who have given evidence have had this stress for not only nine mths but longer. So the Hawks side is possibly feeling the heat as much also. 

Hopefully some resolutions can be completed ASAP to ease all within this sad and sorry matter.
 

[Deebauched 1,220]

Character assassination  AFL style.

Tricky Gil will walk away at the end of this year without a scratch on him and a multi millionaire.  Media love and celebrate everyone inside the corporate dome.

Even elite coaches are nothing but low hanging fruit. Theyre not inside the club.

 

[DeeZone 10,222]

I feel very sorry for Clarko and everyone that is involved in this terrible situation. That this has been allowed to drag on for 9 months without any resolution Or even discussions with the alleged accused is a blight on the AFL and will now most likely end in Court. Not that court will resolve damaged lives or shattered careers, total AFL SNAFU. !!!

[DubDee 26,191]

Jordy Lewis going hard on his old club on 360 last night.

They did this review/investigation 8 months ago, hung former coaches out to dry and nothing has happened since! No positive changes for the first nations folks who went into this review hoping their words would lead to change.

And Clarko and Fagan still havent had the chance to speak or be interviewed! 

Disgraceful by the Hawks. Lewis reckons the relationship between Clarko and Hawks is over.

[layzie 34,121]

2 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Jordy Lewis going hard on his old club on 360 last night.

They did this review/investigation 8 months ago, hung former coaches out to dry and nothing has happened since! No positive changes for the first nations folks who went into this review hoping their words would lead to change.

And Clarko and Fagan still havent had the chance to speak or be interviewed! 

Disgraceful by the Hawks. Lewis reckons the relationship between Clarko and Hawks is over.

It has to be sadly, can't see him going to their premiership reunion.

[DeeZone 10,222]

14 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Jordy Lewis going hard on his old club on 360 last night.

They did this review/investigation 8 months ago, hung former coaches out to dry and nothing has happened since! No positive changes for the first nations folks who went into this review hoping their words would lead to change.

And Clarko and Fagan still havent had the chance to speak or be interviewed! 

Disgraceful by the Hawks. Lewis reckons the relationship between Clarko and Hawks is over.

Thanks DubDee that is the most passionate I have ever seen Lewis off field, spoke from the heart.!!

[dees189227 12,432]

Last week Fagan came out and said I sleep well at night, I have a clear conscience. 

Clarkson has never said anything like that. 

I really wonder how this will end up 

[chookrat 4,268]

On 5/18/2023 at 8:01 PM, chookrat said:

Agree fully, since Brad Scott left the players have had virtually no stability with multiple senior coaches as well as overhauls of the footy department and executive.

I feel for Clarkson in this as while the truth telling is important as a society we are too quick to condemn people including the people who chose to tell their story along with the coaches involved.  I hope we see Clarkson back at North and that he can continue to contribute to the game.

At the risk of quoting myself from an earlier post, here is what Sonia Hood from North Melbourne said at a function today and I think she perfectly captures the situation. 

“There are two parts to the Hawthorn situation: there are some shocking and substantive allegations in the public domain, which I won’t repeat but which relate to terminations of pregnancy and separations of families,” Hood said.

“Those are contestable and are strongly denied, and a process was put in place eight months ago to determine whether they happened. I’ll leave what happens next to that process.

“But more than that, there is clearly a huge amount of hurt on both sides. And an adversarial system and an adversarial process does not deal well with hurt."

“It deals with right and wrong and punishment, not hurt, not learning and not the sort of understanding of one another and moving forward we need to get to if we’re going to have any chance of moving on.”

“We need to find a way to build bridges, not battle lines”.

Hawthorn embarked on a truth telling process of which its contents were leaked to the media and was then used as the basis as an AFL investigation involving lawyers and sanctions.

[dees189227 12,432]

The AFL can't just exonerate the 3 people involved. That just leaves as nothing sorted. And no one is cleared or found guilty.

Questions would be asked still 

Edited May 20, 2023 by dees189227

[YearOfTheDees 3,266]

Breaking: Hawthorn chief executive Justin Reeves has resigned from his position at the helm of the Hawks. And so it begins.

 

In a statement on Wednesday afternoon, Hawthorn said that Reeves had told the board he needed “to prioritise his mental health and wellbeing and spend more time with family”.

Edited May 24, 2023 by YearOfTheDees
add

[Stiff Arm 4,419]

News just coming out...

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-does-deal-with-families-to-end-hawthorn-investigation-20230530-p5dclq.html