Hawks racism allegations (merged thread)

[Graeme Yeats' Mullet 6,775]

38 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Good point, so clearly we better not believe Hodge's comments about being treated well also. We'll need some evidence to back that up, can't just take his word for it surely?

Essentially yes, you're correct

We should also recognise it provides context and different perspectives that can help broaden understanding

[layzie 33,796]

1 hour ago, chookrat said:

Dr Gonzo I'm not sure how my post is a joke. You are relying on media reports based on selected information provided by the players without any context. Happy if you want to elaborate further.

But if they are true could you still excuse the behaviour even if it was to win at all costs? There has to be a humanity line somewhere.

[Pennant St Dee 13,173]

5 hours ago, one_demon said:

Is it wrong to say the allegations are probably true?...because you couldn't make this stuff up.

Yeah some of it you could and at a minimum twist your version to shift blame.

Not just directed towards you but there are a lot of either naive or sheltered people on Demonland 

[Pennant St Dee 13,173]

5 hours ago, Stiff Arm said:

Would think that one piece of evidence easily verified is the new sim cards allegedly put into phones. I'm no telco tech but surely they can find records of who issued the cards, location of user (might substantiate use by player), what happened to old sim cards, phone call records and text messages, etc. A lot of data could be mined there aiding the investigation 

What will that prove, that SIM cards were changed.

 I think you will find SIM cards were given to many players from a variety of backgrounds.

The reasons the players in these circumstances were given new SIM cards will be the major point of conjecture 

[Dingo 1,059]

10 hours ago, chookrat said:

Does anyone know what the purpose of the AFLPA is? If we look at the Essendon doping program, Adelaide's camp and now the findings of Hawthorn's cultural safety review the player association has done absolutely nothing. Do they advocate from a purely economic perspective, e.g. remuneration, number of games etc, or do they also have a role in player wellbeing and safety? This is a genuine question as no-one has brought up their role in any of these.

I THINK l read that it is funded by the AFL.I stand to be corrected.

[Older demon 2,741]

I hate to say this but I agree with Kennet, first time ever. The club conducted an anonymous survey with some confronting allegations, which weren't fact-checked but accepted as true. To then go to an ABC journalist and tell the story and name coaches who have had no right to reply is wrong. Why now when these events are 9 years old? Is there so much distrust in the survey that those concerned felt the need to go public? 

If anything, Caro's story re Mitchell suggests that the club was very strict, heavy-handed with its handling of young players. To me that the controlling wasn't racially based but something all new players to the club were subjected to. Culturally insensitive yes but a racist I think not. It is only in recent times especially post Adelaide's camp that an awareness of cultural sensitivities is so detrimental to First Nations players.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

7 minutes ago, Older demon said:

I hate to say this but I agree with Kennet, first time ever. The club conducted an anonymous survey with some confronting allegations, which weren't fact-checked but accepted as true. To then go to an ABC journalist and tell the story and name coaches who have had no right to reply is wrong. Why now when these events are 9 years old? Is there so much distrust in the survey that those concerned felt the need to go public? 

If anything, Caro's story re Mitchell suggests that the club was very strict, heavy-handed with its handling of young players. To me that the controlling wasn't racially based but something all new players to the club were subjected to. Culturally insensitive yes but a racist I think not. It is only in recent times especially post Adelaide's camp that an awareness of cultural sensitivities is so detrimental to First Nations players.

The whole "no right of reply" thing is rubbish. It's already been clarified how much opportunity they were given before the article was published, and there's been countless articles and press releases since then from Fagan, Clarkson, Kennett etc.

 

[chookrat 4,249]

I've just come across the original ABC article re the allegations and reading this I've been way off the mark in suggesting the coaching staff don't have much to answer for.

Previously I'd read comments from other articles in isolation (which don't really provide any context) but the ABC Sport interviews with the families paint a disturbing picture that is difficult enough to read, let alone experience.

For anyone like me who hadn't previously read the ABC Sport article it paints quite a detailed picture of the allegations from the players and families perspectives, noting the content is quite distressing.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/alastair-clarkson-and-chris-fagan-named-in-hawks-review/101452320

The most disturbing part of this is the seemingly preemptive, systematic approach described in the players stories of separating young First Nations players from their families. E.g. this doesn't look like an isolated incident of a young player having poor habits and getting into a bit of trouble and the club acting to provide a stable environment.

Anyway, I was very wrong on this and this will send shockwaves through the league.  I think the players have done the right thing in going public as the allegations are serious to the extent that the AFL investigation would have been compromised before it started.

if I am to be fully honest I am disappointed with you Demonlander's for not getting stuck into me properly for having a poorly formed opinion on something I clearly didn't do the requisite ground work.

[daisycutter 29,614]

4 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

The whole "no right of reply" thing is rubbish. It's already been clarified how much opportunity they were given before the article was published, and there's been countless articles and press releases since then from Fagan, Clarkson, Kennett etc.

 

it's not as simple as that, and i think you know that

the 3 hawthorn coaches were effectively ambushed by press deadlines and lack of full understanding.   any decent lawyer's advice would be to say nothing at that stage, and certainly not initially to the press who hold no authority in the matter

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 minute ago, daisycutter said:

it's not as simple as that, and i think you know that

the 3 hawthorn coaches were effectively ambushed by press deadlines and lack of full understanding.   any decent lawyer's advice would be to say nothing at that stage, and certainly not initially to the press who hold no authority in the matter

Nah. I find it hilarious that there's now so many statements and articles about the 'no right of reply'.

Bit like Steve Price the other week using his newspaper column, radio show and TV spot to talk about how he'd been cancelled.

Just silly.

[daisycutter 29,614]

we have a different opinion then on this aspect

i think the families could have at least waited for hawthorn's response before going to the court of public opinion. and if that response was unsatisfactory then talk to the press.

but that's just my opinion. i'll just wait until both sides have had their say and had it evaluated and tested. looks like it could be a looong wait.

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

25 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

we have a different opinion then on this aspect

i think the families could have at least waited for hawthorn's response before going to the court of public opinion. and if that response was unsatisfactory then talk to the press.

but that's just my opinion. i'll just wait until both sides have had their say and had it evaluated and tested. looks like it could be a looong wait.

The Hawks response has been given 

“A bump in the road” From the President 

The AFL had the information for over a week and did nothing. 
I can fully understand why the Families talked with a trusted Journalist. 
It was their only chance

[redandbluemakepurple 358]

5 hours ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Good point, so clearly we better not believe Hodge's comments about being treated well also.

It would not be all that surprising if the powers that be did not feel entitled to treat someone who looked like them, as they would treat someone who did not look like them.  So all up Hodge's comments are irrelevant.

Edited October 2, 2022 by redandbluemakepurple

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

1 hour ago, Older demon said:

I hate to say this but I agree with Kennet, first time ever. The club conducted an anonymous survey with some confronting allegations, which weren't fact-checked but accepted as true. To then go to an ABC journalist and tell the story and name coaches who have had no right to reply is wrong. Why now when these events are 9 years old? Is there so much distrust in the survey that those concerned felt the need to go public? 

Again, the club initiated this. The players did not seek this out, the club came to them.

Obviously there is distrust in the AFL's ability to handle this. Rightly so considering the AFL's past.

[layzie 33,796]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

The whole "no right of reply" thing is rubbish. It's already been clarified how much opportunity they were given before the article was published, and there's been countless articles and press releases since then from Fagan, Clarkson, Kennett etc.

 

I call serious BS on the no right of reply thing. That just doesn't wash.

[daisycutter 29,614]

19 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The Hawks response has been given 

“A bump in the road” From the President 

The AFL had the information for over a week and did nothing. 
I can fully understand why the Families talked with a trusted Journalist. 
It was their only chance

well it was hawthorn in good faith (presumably) who initiated the review and got egan to talk to the families and gave them an opportunity to talk after 9 years and air any grievances.

so your telling me that after waiting 9 years to talk they couldn't wait a week for the afl and hawthorn to respond with a process to address what was very serious matters. now, after participating willingly in hawthorn's review they didn't want to wait for hawthorn or afl's response before going to the media.

well it's all water under the bridge now and it is what it is, but i can understand the accused's feeling they have not been afforded a fair process (up to now) because of the families involvement of the press and being explicitly named whilst the accusers have not been. 

[Ethan Tremblay 30,858]

.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Ethan Tremblay

[Stiff Arm 4,419]

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

we have a different opinion then on this aspect

i think the families could have at least waited for hawthorn's response before going to the court of public opinion. and if that response was unsatisfactory then talk to the press.

but that's just my opinion. i'll just wait until both sides have had their say and had it evaluated and tested. looks like it could be a looong wait.

I think the families spoke to the media for the simple reason that they feared HFC and the AFL would find a way to cover the allegations up and do very little, which is exactly what they would've done 

Make it public, demand an independent investigation not funded by the AFL. Hard to cover it up now Gil!

[Ethan Tremblay 30,858]

33 minutes ago, Stiff Arm said:

I think the families spoke to the media for the simple reason that they feared HFC and the AFL would find a way to cover the allegations up and do very little, which is exactly what they would've done 

Make it public, demand an independent investigation not funded by the AFL. Hard to cover it up now Gil!

Weren’t the AFL going to use the Australian Human Rights Commission to conduct the investigation? 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, chookrat said:

I've just come across the original ABC article re the allegations and reading this I've been way off the mark in suggesting the coaching staff don't have much to answer for.

Previously I'd read comments from other articles in isolation (which don't really provide any context) but the ABC Sport interviews with the families paint a disturbing picture that is difficult enough to read, let alone experience.

For anyone like me who hadn't previously read the ABC Sport article it paints quite a detailed picture of the allegations from the players and families perspectives, noting the content is quite distressing.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/alastair-clarkson-and-chris-fagan-named-in-hawks-review/101452320

The most disturbing part of this is the seemingly preemptive, systematic approach described in the players stories of separating young First Nations players from their families. E.g. this doesn't look like an isolated incident of a young player having poor habits and getting into a bit of trouble and the club acting to provide a stable environment.

Anyway, I was very wrong on this and this will send shockwaves through the league.  I think the players have done the right thing in going public as the allegations are serious to the extent that the AFL investigation would have been compromised before it started.

if I am to be fully honest I am disappointed with you Demonlander's for not getting stuck into me properly for having a poorly formed opinion on something I clearly didn't do the requisite ground work.

Thank you for doing something that so often should be done, but rarely is: you admitted you were mistaken. You acknowledged you were ill-informed and you made the effort to properly research this. Well done. 👍🏽

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

well it was hawthorn in good faith (presumably) who initiated the review and got egan to talk to the families and gave them an opportunity to talk after 9 years and air any grievances.

so your telling me that after waiting 9 years to talk they couldn't wait a week for the afl and hawthorn to respond with a process to address what was very serious matters. now, after participating willingly in hawthorn's review they didn't want to wait for hawthorn or afl's response before going to the media.

well it's all water under the bridge now and it is what it is, but i can understand the accused's feeling they have not been afforded a fair process (up to now) because of the families involvement of the press and being explicitly named whilst the accusers have not been. 

If the Press hadn’t got a sniff of this, we would not have heard a word about it…

that is the crux of this whole thing. The AFL can’t even get their 4 man panel together 

[Palace Dees 2,326]

4 hours ago, Older demon said:

I hate to say this but I agree with Kennet, first time ever. 

Yeah....nah.

Still waiting for my first.

[layzie 33,796]

10 hours ago, chookrat said:

I've just come across the original ABC article re the allegations and reading this I've been way off the mark in suggesting the coaching staff don't have much to answer for.

Previously I'd read comments from other articles in isolation (which don't really provide any context) but the ABC Sport interviews with the families paint a disturbing picture that is difficult enough to read, let alone experience.

For anyone like me who hadn't previously read the ABC Sport article it paints quite a detailed picture of the allegations from the players and families perspectives, noting the content is quite distressing.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/alastair-clarkson-and-chris-fagan-named-in-hawks-review/101452320

The most disturbing part of this is the seemingly preemptive, systematic approach described in the players stories of separating young First Nations players from their families. E.g. this doesn't look like an isolated incident of a young player having poor habits and getting into a bit of trouble and the club acting to provide a stable environment.

Anyway, I was very wrong on this and this will send shockwaves through the league.  I think the players have done the right thing in going public as the allegations are serious to the extent that the AFL investigation would have been compromised before it started.

if I am to be fully honest I am disappointed with you Demonlander's for not getting stuck into me properly for having a poorly formed opinion on something I clearly didn't do the requisite ground work.

Hey hey, whoa whoa, no need for lynching 😛. You're obviously not a fool. 

[layzie 33,796]

10 hours ago, Older demon said:

I hate to say this but I agree with Kennet, first time ever. The club conducted an anonymous survey with some confronting allegations, which weren't fact-checked but accepted as true. To then go to an ABC journalist and tell the story and name coaches who have had no right to reply is wrong. Why now when these events are 9 years old? Is there so much distrust in the survey that those concerned felt the need to go public? 

If anything, Caro's story re Mitchell suggests that the club was very strict, heavy-handed with its handling of young players. To me that the controlling wasn't racially based but something all new players to the club were subjected to. Culturally insensitive yes but a racist I think not. It is only in recent times especially post Adelaide's camp that an awareness of cultural sensitivities is so detrimental to First Nations players.

Not going to jump down the guy's throat as I haven't fully read what he said but the 'bump in the road' comment at first glance sits in the same bucket as the 'proud day' comment from Eddie after the Do Better report. This is not a bump, there is full on roadworks on the Westgate bridge and no way round other than diving off into the water and swimming round it. Bumps in the highway are player drink driving incidents or Clarko assaulting a fan. This is not a minor blip in history and hopefully this guy acknowledges it. 

[BW511 2,668]

11 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

The whole "no right of reply" thing is rubbish. It's already been clarified how much opportunity they were given before the article was published, and there's been countless articles and press releases since then from Fagan, Clarkson, Kennett etc.

 

Agree. 

At the end of the day, if there was nothing to the story it would all disappear and Clarkson/Fagan/Burt/HFC would have nothing to worry about. Their combined reactions and wording suggest otherwise, in my opinion

Edited October 2, 2022 by BW511