3 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Pains me to say this but I'm loving the way Geelong have gone about it with their list management.

Win a flag but haven't even rested on their laurels. They bring in 3 quality young talent in Bowes, Bruhn and Ollie Henry plus pick 7. 

They're bringing in freshness and looking at esy to regenerate their list while continuing to contend.

Stark difference to how we went about last year when we brought in Luke Dunstan to spend majority of the year in the VFL.

Our VFL team just won the VFL GF (not sure where Geelong VFL ended up), so that says we have some good talent in our system already (i.e. more than Geelong)... so it's not necessarily doom and gloom that we're not bringing in a bunch of mature mid-tier players. 

Seems like everyone wants to be involved in this trade period if you believe the media!

8 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

Our VFL team just won the VFL GF (not sure where Geelong VFL ended up), so that says we have some good talent in our system already (i.e. more than Geelong)... so it's not necessarily doom and gloom that we're not bringing in a bunch of mature mid-tier players. 

It's a good base line I agree.

But how are we suppose to know how that talent can translate to AFL level when our coaching staff refuses to reward their strong form at VFL level?

Geelong had 5 debutants this year and we had 1.

And it's not even about how many player you debut, just another small example. But you could mount a strong case that at stages during the year the likes of JVR, Chandler, Laurie, Bedford, Dunstan could have all been given a fair go at AFL level.

Anyway, trying not to be negative nancy.. will leave it at that.

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Pains me to say this but I'm loving the way Geelong have gone about it with their list management.

Win a flag but haven't even rested on their laurels. They bring in 3 quality young talent in Bowes, Bruhn and Ollie Henry plus pick 7. 

They're bringing in freshness and looking at esy to regenerate their list while continuing to contend.

Stark difference to how we went about last year when we brought in Luke Dunstan to spend majority of the year in the VFL.

The price they'll pay in terms of dollars especially for Bruhn and Ollie Henry is sickening. Not to mention it just drastically decreases the risk of getting a dud in the draft when you don't have to draft. I'm not 100% sold Bowes is a best 22 player but pick 7 will almost certainly be and they'll lock Bowes in at 600 x 4, rather than 800 x 2 and that's happy days.

With hindsight we should've gone harder at Cerra I think. I can see why we wanted to work quietly in the background rather than upset the 22 but we should've been front and centre at him. 

Both then and now it's time to turnover the fringes of our list. I really don't care if it's the most uninspiring collection of delistings, pick 80 trades or state league players I just can't see how holding on to guys who the coach has no intention of playing (and IMO rightly so) makes us better.

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Pains me to say this but I'm loving the way Geelong have gone about it with their list management.

Win a flag but haven't even rested on their laurels. They bring in 3 quality young talent in Bowes, Bruhn and Ollie Henry plus pick 7. 

They're bringing in freshness and looking at esy to regenerate their list while continuing to contend.

Stark difference to how we went about last year when we brought in Luke Dunstan to spend majority of the year in the VFL.

Even now, whilst Grundy is an upgrade on Jackson I'm not sure we've made much improvement with our list moving into next year.

Talk of Gawn playing majority up forward simply does not fix our forward half issue at all. We've lost depth in Bedford and im not entirely sure of we have a plan in finding a replacement.

Still a bit to go during the trade period, but it's a bit deflating watching other top sides like Brisbane and Geelong top up with some quality talent to fit their needs.

Wouldn't stress about it DD.

Think of it this way - when Oppo teams are coming up against the Dees - the fans are filled with dread at the thought of Petracca, Oliver, Pickett, Fritsch, Langdon Gawn and May.

Gawn & May are at/nearing 30 & we will need to find good replacements (Grundy a good start for a few years), but Trac, Oliver, Pickett, Fritsch & Langdon have years ahead of them, hopefully at the Dees. 

We are filled with dread when we play Geelong too - but its in reference to Hawkins (34), Selwood (Retired), Dangerfield (32), Smith (33), Cameron (29). 

Stengle is good, but benefited from the fresh voice, new energy & sympathetic coaching of Eddie. Like us with Mark Williams, this will fade & I have doubts on him going on to become a multi-time AA. Pickett has already proven his consistency and quality on and off-field (presuming we can keep him!). If he was picking up the crumbs of Hawkins and Cameron, he too would be AA and then some. 

Cameron is 29 and is the weapon we don't have. He'll keep them competitive for years, but will be less effective once Hawkins moves on. De Koning is very good - but unproven over the medium/long term - and the guys they're bringing in are all talented but also unproven. They'll have ups & downs before they get to 25-27 not to mention significantly change the mindset/chemistry of the current team presuming they all make the 22.

Probably more than any other team in the competition, we have a proven cohort of 24-27 year olds that are top-line and should keep us in the hunt for the next 3-6 years. They've been through their ups and downs already. We're the envy of the comp in this regard. 

Even on the next tier down - Geelong have very good players yes - Guthrie (30), Stewart (29) - arguably equivalent to Brayshaw (27), Salem (27) when on form. Jack Henry is very good and young (24) - but Petty is arguably his equal (22). Tuohy & Hibberd are analogous too.   

Swings and roundabouts across the rest of the field - they've got good role players in some spots, we have good role players in others.

Most of this Geelong group played their entire careers together and have only saluted at the end after a dream season where everything went right. They had to change their coaching, gameplan and get quite a few fresh voices to get across the last 15% they lacked in previous years. 

They're always a strong team, and the home ground advantage ensures that, but they're hardly on the cusp of a dynasty. I'm not saying this year was their dead cat bounce, but I think of it a little along those lines. In many respects it was their last chance. Let them enjoy it as its unlikely to last. 

Our guys went through the [censored] together and came out the other side whilst they're still in their prime. That counts for so much more. Ditto for our supporters - Geelong fans think they've enjoyed this flag. Truthfully they've got no idea what it feels like to see the entire journey start to finish. 

I've been vocal on our shortcomings this year and I may be wrong - there are no guarantees in either direction - but I know which team I'd rather support from this point on.   

Edited October 5, 20222 yr by fr_ap

2 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

We are very much not in the same position as Geelong.

Exactly, turn the clock back 12 months all the doom and gloom regarding the Cats aging list

11 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Wouldn't stress about it DD.

Think of it this way - when Oppo teams are coming up against the Dees - the fans are filled with dread at the thought of Petracca, Oliver, Pickett, Fritsch, Langdon Gawn and May.

Gawn & May are at/nearing 30 & we will need to find good replacements (Grundy a good start for a few years), but Trac, Oliver, Pickett, Fritsch & Langdon have years ahead of them, hopefully at the Dees. 

We are filled with dread when we play Geelong too - but its in reference to Hawkins (34), Selwood (Retired), Dangerfield (32), Smith (33), Cameron (29). 

Stengle is good, but benefited from the fresh voice, new energy & sympathetic coaching of Eddie. Like us with Mark Williams, this will fade & I have doubts on him going on to become a multi-time AA. Pickett has already proven his consistency and quality on and off-field (presuming we can keep him!). If he was picking up the crumbs of Hawkins and Cameron, he too would be AA and then some. 

Cameron is 29 and is the weapon we don't have. He'll keep them competitive for years, but will be less effective once Hawkins moves on. De Koning is very good - but unproven over the medium/long term - and the guys they're bringing in are all talented but also unproven. They'll have ups & downs before they get to 25-27 not to mention significantly change the mindset/chemistry of the current team presuming they all make the 22.

Probably more than any other team in the competition, we have a proven cohort of 24-27 year olds that are top-line and should keep us in the hunt for the next 3-6 years. They've been through their ups and downs already. We're the envy of the comp in this regard. 

Even on the next tier down - Geelong have very good players yes - Guthrie (30), Stewart (29) - arguably equivalent to Brayshaw (27), Salem (27) when on form. Jack Henry is very good and young (24) - but Petty is arguably his equal (22). Tuohy & Hibberd are analogous too.   

Swings and roundabouts across the rest of the field - they've got good role players in some spots, we have good role players in others.

Most of this Geelong group played their entire careers together and have only saluted at the end after a dream season where everything went right. They had to change their coaching, gameplan and get quite a few fresh voices to get across the last 15% they lacked in previous years. 

They're always a strong team, and the home ground advantage ensures that, but they're hardly on the cusp of a dynasty. I'm not saying this year was their dead cat bounce, but I think of it a little along those lines. In many respects it was their last chance. Let them enjoy it as its unlikely to last. 

Our guys went through the [censored] together and came out the other side whilst they're still in their prime. That counts for so much more. Ditto for our supporters - Geelong fans think they've enjoyed this flag. Truthfully they've got no idea what it feels like to see the entire journey start to finish. 

I've been vocal on our shortcomings this year and I may be wrong - there are no guarantees in either direction - but I know which team I'd rather support from this point on.   

Like your positivity Fr-ap but you have made a few assumptions more on the Cats than us in each position. 

I believe it could be both Dees and Cats separate from the rest in 2023 providing we regain our list in good health and we integrate stronger form selection policies and our role players return to 2021 standards, 

I also think  we have enough depth snd Grundy and one top talent from the draft plus our 2022 Casey Demons boost our depth for 2023.

Your way off pace IMO thinking Csts are at  the end of their run and their 3 recruits in this trade are all young snd IMO better prepared for AFL than most of JVR Taj Laurie  AMW Howes and McPhee are in their career timelines. Interesting you say they won't develop to  be a dynasty. Actually they are A DYNASTY and have been for 15 years!!

There  is improvement in both Clubs lists and I  am bullish we can return to 2021 standard or more but Cats are in a very confident period and age won't debar them in 2023 unless they are injured.

Its going yo be fascinating watching each Club in2023. 

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Pains me to say this but I'm loving the way Geelong have gone about it with their list management.

Win a flag but haven't even rested on their laurels. They bring in 3 quality young talent in Bowes, Bruhn and Ollie Henry plus pick 7. 

They're bringing in freshness and looking at esy to regenerate their list while continuing to contend.

Stark difference to how we went about last year when we brought in Luke Dunstan to spend majority of the year in the VFL.

Even now, whilst Grundy is an upgrade on Jackson I'm not sure we've made much improvement with our list moving into next year.

Talk of Gawn playing majority up forward simply does not fix our forward half issue at all. We've lost depth in Bedford and im not entirely sure of we have a plan in finding a replacement.

Still a bit to go during the trade period, but it's a bit deflating watching other top sides like Brisbane and Geelong top up with some quality talent to fit their needs.

I know what your saying DD and I still can’t understand how Geelong had the cap space to buy pick 7. You have to hand it to them their list management is the best in the game. 
At the start of the trade period I was very disheartened to see what our rivals are able to do in terms of bringing in players that are ready to go and will improve their list straight away and the only player we seem to be in for is Grundy. 
But having listened to Lambs interviews I’m of the opinion that if we don’t trade in any other player in this window we will do very well out of this draft and bring in at least 2 high quality players that should be ready to go next year. 
I think we will add our future first to the bounty we get from Freo and hit this draft much the same as when we picked up Jackson, Koissie and Rivers. 
Just saying wait until after trade window and draft are done and dusted and then judge our off season compared to others. 

20 hours ago, Demonland said:

 

We can't get 15 from GWS unless we package Bedford and say a future 2nd rounder to them in 2023  It looks like 44 !! And a fourth or third rounder back. 

7 minutes ago, Colm said:

I know what your saying DD and I still can’t understand how Geelong had the cap space to buy pick 7. You have to hand it to them their list management is the best in the game. 
 

Geelong have done very well in convincing players to take less than their market rate:

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/09/09/this-is-what-geelong-do-hawkins-shock-2023-salary-revealed/

If this article is correct, then combined with the departure of Selwood, Higgins and Dahlhaus that gives them a good amount to play with to pick up the salary for Bowes.  Also apparently the new CBA sees an increase in salary cap for 2023, but I haven't seen figures. 

 

And exactly how would he make it through to Brisbane in the PSD without he and the Bears manipulating the system? ie. Draft tampering

But given its the AFL, anything goes if they say so

30 minutes ago, 58er said:

Like your positivity Fr-ap but you have made a few assumptions more on the Cats than us in each position. 

I believe it could be both Dees and Cats separate from the rest in 2023 providing we regain our list in good health and we integrate stronger form selection policies and our role players return to 2021 standards, 

I also think  we have enough depth snd Grundy and one top talent from the draft plus our 2022 Casey Demons boost our depth for 2023.

Your way off pace IMO thinking Csts are at  the end of their run and their 3 recruits in this trade are all young snd IMO better prepared for AFL than most of JVR Taj Laurie  AMW Howes and McPhee are in their career timelines. Interesting you say they won't develop to  be a dynasty. Actually they are A DYNASTY and have been for 15 years!!

There  is improvement in both Clubs lists and I  am bullish we can return to 2021 standard or more but Cats are in a very confident period and age won't debar them in 2023 unless they are injured.

Its going yo be fascinating watching each Club in2023. 

Agreed on selection policies & standards - my culture thread makes my views on that very clear!

Re. their 3 recruits being well prepared - it is true they're more advanced than JVR Taj Laurie AMW etc. 

What you're missing though is that short of injuries or back luck, we aren't yet reliant on those guys coming into the team. Most could all have another 3-4 years before they're absolutely required to step in, because our core cohort is in the right age bracket.  

Geelong can insert Bruhn, Henry and Bowes to replace Selwood, Hawkins and Tuohy across 23 and 24 - that's fine, each of the 3 recruits look like good players. But there's nothing to suggest they are close to the calibre of those they are replacing - which is what Geelong need to stay on top. This is my point. 

They've got some good players in the right age brackets, but in all respects, they are role players (perhaps other than De Koning). It remains to be seen whether they can transition from role players to game winners without the current Senior crop dragging them over the line. That's not true for us - our young and mid-20s players are winning us games and have done now for 2 seasons (Gawn and May the exception as I noted).  

They've had a sustained successful period with this list, but only 2 flags a long time apart. I wouldn't call that a dynasty given the players they've had at their disposal. The Tigers achieved more with less.  

Agreed not going to debar them from winning again in 23 - but as I said I know who I'd rather support. 

Edited October 6, 20222 yr by fr_ap

 

2 minutes ago, Stiff Arm said:

And exactly how would he make it through to Brisbane in the PSD without he and the Bears manipulating the system? ie. Draft tampering

But given its the AFL, anything goes if they say so

When a player walks to the preseason draft is there really a danger of another club pinching them?

1 minute ago, Demonland said:

When a player walks to the preseason draft is there really a danger of another club pinching them?

Probably not but it would only need to happen once

IIRC the last time the PSD route was taken by a "good player" was to Carlton and they upped the first year salary component so much it was hard for any other team to match. (Might be considered tampering these days)

6 minutes ago, Demonland said:

When a player walks to the preseason draft is there really a danger of another club pinching them?

I bloody well hope so! Can't stand this manipulation that goes against 'good faith', whatever that represents in the AFL 

5 minutes ago, Stiff Arm said:

I bloody well hope so! Can't stand this manipulation that goes against 'good faith', whatever that represents in the AFL 

Looks like the Bulldogs are hoping for that too.

 

14 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Agreed on selection policies & standards - my culture thread makes my views on that very clear!

Re. their 3 recruits being well prepared - it is true they're more advanced than JVR Taj Laurie AMW etc. 

What you're missing though is that short of injuries or back luck, we aren't yet reliant on those guys coming into the team. Most could all have another 3-4 years before they're absolutely required to step in, because our core cohort is in the right age bracket.  

Geelong can insert Bruhn, Henry and Bowes to replace Selwood, Hawkins and Tuohy across 23 and 24 - that's fine, each of the 3 recruits look like good players. But there's nothing to suggest they are close to the calibre of those they are replacing - which is what Geelong need to stay on top. This is my point. 

They've got some good players in the right age brackets, but in all respects, they are role players (perhaps other than De Koning). It remains to be seen whether they can transition from role players to game winners without the current Senior crop dragging them over the line. That's not true for us - our young and mid-20s players are winning us games and have done now for 2 seasons (Gawn and May the exception as I noted).  

They've had a sustained successful period with this list, but only 2 flags a long time apart. I wouldn't call that a dynasty given the players they've had at their disposal. The Tigers achieved more with less.  

Agreed not going to debar them from winning again in 23 - but as I said I know who I'd rather support. 

4 flags in 15 years 2009 and 2011. Not 2 a decade apart . 

44 minutes ago, 58er said:

Like your positivity Fr-ap but you have made a few assumptions more on the Cats than us in each position. 

I believe it could be both Dees and Cats separate from the rest in 2023 providing we regain our list in good health and we integrate stronger form selection policies and our role players return to 2021 standards, 

I also think  we have enough depth snd Grundy and one top talent from the draft plus our 2022 Casey Demons boost our depth for 2023.

Your way off pace IMO thinking Csts are at  the end of their run and their 3 recruits in this trade are all young snd IMO better prepared for AFL than most of JVR Taj Laurie  AMW Howes and McPhee are in their career timelines. Interesting you say they won't develop to  be a dynasty. Actually they are A DYNASTY and have been for 15 years!!

There  is improvement in both Clubs lists and I  am bullish we can return to 2021 standard or more but Cats are in a very confident period and age won't debar them in 2023 unless they are injured.

Its going yo be fascinating watching each Club in2023. 

tHIS is fanciful thinking.  Some clubs on parity with us, Swans currently ahead of us. The real game is off-season player list maintenance, the pretend game is on the football ground each weekend.

13 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Probably not but it would only need to happen once

 

Agree. The player then plays with the club that takes him or doesn't and if not, gets no AFL footy and no money.

Could even sign a one year deal, on the basis they trade him at reasonable value the next year.

That's a great PSD then for that club, a free good player, to trade in a year.

8 minutes ago, Demonland said:

Looks like the Bulldogs are hoping for that too.

 

North getting excited.

6 minutes ago, Demonland said:

Looks like the Bulldogs are hoping for that too.

 

Good.

As Diamond Jim wrote: it only has to happen once for clubs to never do it again

I'd be wrapped if another club snatched him, especially us!

Different circumstances, but I can almost see Freo doing the same with their 13

Edited October 6, 20222 yr by Stiff Arm

1 minute ago, bush demon said:

tHIS is fanciful thinking.  Some clubs on parity with us, Swans currently ahead of us. The real game is off-season player list maintenance, the pretend game is on the football ground each weekend.

Read my 2nd para BD.
Remember we had 2 less scoring shots than Swans and  2 more than Lions in the Finals.

We are right in the mix in the next 5 years and our fitness snd injury plus the little thugs like Maysie and Goody off field just are enough to interfere at times. 

Msny critics journos  are strong in backing us to return to 2021 standard. ECh year is different not always logical or linear 

Yiu seem to have given up on our list and are upset at the moment s as others trade. We are targeting more closely and no doubt consider done back  up from the Casey players if Goody gives them a go!