Is David Noble the new Mark Neeld?

[Jaded No More 68,916]

28 minutes ago, Macca said:

 

The eye-opener for me with the Demons was Roos' first year.  To lose 18 games told us that the players we had simply weren't up to it.  And my opinion of Neeld changed as well because of all those losses that followed

 

We did improve under Roos from a defensive point of view. Under Neeld we were getting dismantled every week, not too dissimilar to North.

Roos built a defensive foundation and 2 way running. It wasn't always well executed because as you say, we had a poor list, but there is no doubt the 'buy in' from the playing group under Roos as a whole would have been much higher than under Neeld.

I know Roos isn't a people person either, but he commanded the respect that Neeld could only dream of.

Noble is very different and comes with a long and respected history in our game. 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

26 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

Zuurhaar isn't a key forward at 189cms, he's a forward/mid type.

Not suggesting KF but North play him mostly as a medium tall foward (ie;  he is pretty much played as a forward).  He plays only minor time mid on occasions.

[Lucifers Hero 39,813]

North cut its own heart out when it sacked long term much loved players:  Harvey, Petrie, Firrito and relative but loyal newcomer, Del Santo.

Brad Scott's intentions were probably right (get some youth in) but the execution of the idea, was just that in the eyes of many: an execution.

Scott left mid season, two and half years later in 2019 and the club via well meaning but now gone past players, continued shedding senior players for the next two years. 

The club is now a shell, devoid of its 'shinboner' spirit or anyone from President down who has any real connection with that proud moniker.

They have seriously lost their way.

It will take more than a Jackson/Roos type combo to revive them.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[Macca 16,972]

18 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

We did improve under Roos from a defensive point of view. Under Neeld we were getting dismantled every week, not too dissimilar to North.

Roos built a defensive foundation and 2 way running. It wasn't always well executed because as you say, we had a poor list, but there is no doubt the 'buy in' from the playing group under Roos as a whole would have been much higher than under Neeld.

I know Roos isn't a people person either, but he commanded the respect that Neeld could only dream of.

Noble is very different and comes with a long and respected history in our game. 

Agreed but in both cases, the respective clubs both had/have way bigger issues than just the coach

The heat now goes on the players at North (immediately) ... and every player is capable of playing above their average (from time to time) If that can happen all on the same day, a good performance beckons

That largely explains (in my view) as to why teams often bounce-back with a win or much improved performance the game after a coach is removed ... so look out Richmond!

But it is fools gold as North's average output from their current list is quite poor

They need a big rebuild and they need to nail their recruiting like we did once Roos/Jackson/Taylor arrived.  Easier said than done

 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

7 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

North cut its own heart out when it sacked long term much loved players:  Harvey, Petrie, Firrito and relative but loyal newcomer, Del Santo.

Brad Scott's intentions were probably right (get some youth in) but the execution of the idea, was just that in the eyes of many: an execution.

Scott left mid season, two and half years later in 2019 and the club via well meaning but now gone past players, continued shedding senior players for the next two years. 

The club is now a shell, devoid of its 'shinboner' spirit or anyone from President down who has any real connection with that proud moniker.

They have seriously lost their way.

It will take more than a Jackson/Roos type combo to revive them.

Clarkson or bust? .... at least for another 7 to 10 years anyway.

Even with Clarkson they're at least 3 to 5 years away from becoming seriously competitive IMV.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Demon Dynasty

[McQueen 17,864]

I laughed when Noble gave praise to Armarfio but appeared to make sure he sounded choked as he got it out of his mouth. 

[Sir Why You Little 37,039]

48 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

We did improve under Roos from a defensive point of view. Under Neeld we were getting dismantled every week, not too dissimilar to North.

Roos built a defensive foundation and 2 way running. It wasn't always well executed because as you say, we had a poor list, but there is no doubt the 'buy in' from the playing group under Roos as a whole would have been much higher than under Neeld.

I know Roos isn't a people person either, but he commanded the respect that Neeld could only dream of.

Noble is very different and comes with a long and respected history in our game. 

Our % improved drastically under Roos in those first 2 years. 
we didn’t win a lot of games but we became far more competitive 

Building Foundations from the bottom

[layzie 33,805]

54 minutes ago, Macca said:

Yes, they need an experienced coach but they also need to surround that experienced coach with more experience both in the coaching area and in the Admin area.  So it's not just the coaching

The eye-opener for me with the Demons was Roos' first year.  To lose 18 games told us that the players we had simply weren't up to it.  And my opinion of Neeld changed as well because of all those losses that followed

And because it was Roos/Jackson that tenure was given the grace to 'limit the damage' because that's what we witnessed

But none of that is ground-breaking news

North have to be prepared to go through what we went through.  And to be fair, there was never any heat on Roos at our club by the media or our supporters (or opposition supporters for that matter)

Very early on it was obvious that Roos needed to rebuild the list from ground zero (after the other, failed rebuild)

2010 - 2013 are some of the most misleading and bizarre years I've ever seen regarding the MFC list. So many in the media thought we had the makings of the next juggernaut. Then all of a sudden Junior and Bruce are moved on leaving us in a leadership hole, young talents Jurrah and Wonaeamirri disappear never to be seen again and young hot shot Scully bails for the cash, Trenners gets the feet from hell, Jack Watts doesn't progress at the rate that we would have liked, Trenners gets the feet from hell, the club drafts Lucas Cook and so on and so on. 

I do feel that Neeld had a bit more to work with than Noble when it comes to experience but what an absolute cluster this whole ordeal was. He wears the responsibility of guys like Moloney and Rivers leaving no doubt but what a trainwreck just waiting to happen.

2014 was definitely the true measure of the list as it stood at that point. The cupboards were bare and we were left with a group that had been put the ringer with several different gameplans and several different coaches in the previous 3 years. There were so many players on this list that were simply not up to it. 

The 2010-11 years of this club actually scare me when I think of them. I remember genuinely thinking our club was in good hands off field when we found out it wasn’t, well that was quite a shock. 186 brought that all to the boil.

[one_demon 826]

3 hours ago, rpfc said:

AFL won’t let them do that - it will be either a Ross Lyon type or a Alan Richardson type with a handover to a young coach after 3 years.

Yes that's the best option for them, but no experienced coach would want to coach that mob for two to three years unless you pay them mega bucks.  Roos had no interest in coaching Melbourne so we kept throwing more money at him until he couldn't say no.

[Sir Why You Little 37,039]

Poison Chalice that Job

Who will take it?

[layzie 33,805]

It's difficult to see anything other than experience in this role.

If you go for unproven again but with the long term vision then you've got to find a way to sell it to the members that the last 2 seasons of pain they've endured was pretty much all for nothing. 

[Macca 16,972]

51 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Clarkson or bust? .... at least for another 7 to 10 years anyway.

Even with Clarkson they're at least 3 to 5 years away from becoming seriously competitive IMV.

If nearly everything went right recruiting-wise they could be on the cusp of playing finals (or just make the 8) within 2 or 3 years ... but realistically, finals are probably 4-5 years away for North

But again, they can't afford to miss with regards to their recruiting.  They need a good plan and then they need to enact that plan

The league probably wouldn't give them a priority pick but they probably deserve one (as we did when we were rubbish)

But their needs are immediate anyway.  A way to help might be salary cap relief so that they can get some established talent in

We ourselves received a $1.4Million grant in 2013 (as well as PJ and as a consequence, Roos)

 

28 minutes ago, layzie said:

Yhe 2010-11 years of this club actually scare me when I think of them. I remember genuinely thinking our club was in good hands off field when we found out it wasn’t, well that was quite a shock. 186 brought that all to the boil.

I was never that confident ... in those years we were still receiving a lot of terrible hidings

Plus, we weren't hard at the ball and the league style had swing over to a contested style where hard-ball-gets and contested possessions were paramount

We weren't that type of team

At times we looked good but it was 'usually' against mediocre opposition.  We lost 27 games in those 2 years as well and a lot of those losses were thumpings

Forward line had real issues as well

A lot fell for all the top end draft picks as if they were written-in-stone to be good performers.  Those outcomes went pear shaped as well

By the way, I go back a ways ... in my more optimistic days I believed that we were on the cusp of success after making a run at the finals in 1976.  In the 5 years that followed we lost a total of 88 games!! (not happy days) 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Macca

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,755]

50 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Clarkson or bust? .... at least for another 7 to 10 years anyway.

Even with Clarkson they're at least 3 to 5 years away from becoming seriously competitive IMV.

The soft cap makes appointing Clarkson a big risk. He will be the most expensive option out there. That means less money available for all the other things North needs. A coach with senior coaching experience such as Alan Richardson would be significantly cheaper and might allow a couple of extra development or line coaches to be appointed who would otherwise be unaffordable (within the soft cap) if Clarkson was appointed. 

[Macca 16,972]

38 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

The soft cap makes appointing Clarkson a big risk. He will be the most expensive option out there. That means less money available for all the other things North needs. A coach with senior coaching experience such as Alan Richardson would be significantly cheaper and might allow a couple of extra development or line coaches to be appointed who would otherwise be unaffordable (within the soft cap) if Clarkson was appointed. 

The funds available to spend (with the soft cap reduced down from $9.7Million to $6.5Million) hurts a club which needs to spend big on an established experienced coach

So if North go that way there may not be much left over to spend on big name assistants

There was a rumour that Goodwin signed on for less dollars to help the equilibrium

Buckley and Ross Lyon could be approached.  Blokes like that love the cut & thrust of coaching.  It's in their blood (and it's a well paid position) Money talks

Edited July 12, 2022 by Macca

[demon3165 2,718]

Noble got screwed over by the players just as Neeld did, now saying that Neeld had is faults but when you lose the players you lose your job.

When the players run the roost it is hard to change, when Jackson and Roos came in they could not rise against them as they had  the score on the board so everyone fell in line.

[dee-tox 4,835]

4 hours ago, Lord Travis said:

Can we pinch Larkey or Zuurhaar? Both could add to our forward line!

Plus Davies Uniake and Simpkin  for depth...

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

2 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

The soft cap makes appointing Clarkson a big risk. He will be the most expensive option out there. That means less money available for all the other things North needs. A coach with senior coaching experience such as Alan Richardson would be significantly cheaper and might allow a couple of extra development or line coaches to be appointed who would otherwise be unaffordable (within the soft cap) if Clarkson was appointed. 

Cant argue against much of that LD.

The other aspect with Clarkson... wouldn't he potentially make North a somewhat more attractive destination option vs if he wasn't there?

[Jaded No More 68,916]

Buckley would be a great option for North. However why would he leave a well paid cushy media job to run a circus? 
Same goes for Lyon. Ross wants success to prove that he isn’t the overrated hack we all think he is. That doesn’t go hand in hand with North. 
As for Clarkson, he could walk into any club. Why would he walk into North, unless the money was astronomical or he was desperate to stay in Victoria and Essendon stick fat with Rutten?

[layzie 33,805]

9 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Buckley would be a great option for North. However why would he leave a well paid cushy media job to run a circus? 
Same goes for Lyon. Ross wants success to prove that he isn’t the overrated hack we all think he is. That doesn’t go hand in hand with North. 
As for Clarkson, he could walk into any club. Why would he walk into North, unless the money was astronomical or he was desperate to stay in Victoria and Essendon stick fat with Rutten?

I cannot get around the idea of Lyon being a rebuild coach. The guy walks into lists that are about to take off. Sure he may set good standards for the youngsters like Roos, I'm probably being harsh I just don't quite see it. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by layzie

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

9 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Buckley would be a great option for North. However why would he leave a well paid cushy media job to run a circus? 
Same goes for Lyon. Ross wants success to prove that he isn’t the overrated hack we all think he is. That doesn’t go hand in hand with North. 
As for Clarkson, he could walk into any club. Why would he walk into North, unless the money was astronomical or he was desperate to stay in Victoria and Essendon stick fat with Rutten?

No doubt for the $$ Jaded but that may only be one part of the motivation behind him potentially returning to North....

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,755]

14 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Cant argue against much of that LD.

The other aspect with Clarkson... wouldn't he potentially make North a somewhat more attractive destination option vs if he wasn't there?

That's a good question. I suspect some players will be attracted but others might be concerned at the comparative lack of assistant coaches, compared with other clubs. What I'm certain Clarkson will deliver, though, is more sponsorship, more members and more relevance for North overall. That's also got to be an attraction for North. I suspect appointing Buckley might have some similar benefits, although I can't see the same with most of the other options such as Ross Lyon, Justin Leppitsch, Alan Richardson or any first timer. 

[dees189227 12,394]

It sounds like Noble was like Neeld where he gave some honest & probably well deserved at times brutal feedback & the players didn't like it.

So the players run to the administration. 

It's like the Australian cricket team basically forcing Langer out. These days people just can't handle getting a spray.

It seems players run the club's now.

So forget Clarkson with these young players then or even Ross Lyon because they expect a lot & give some honest feedback. 

[Fritta and Turner 4,415]

3 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

It sounds like Noble was like Neeld where he gave some honest & probably well deserved at times brutal feedback & the players didn't like it.

So the players run to the administration. 

It's like the Australian cricket team basically forcing Langer out. These days people just can't handle getting a spray.

It seems players run the club's now.

So forget Clarkson with these young players then or even Ross Lyon because they expect a lot & give some honest feedback. 

I don't think there is anything new here.

Norm used to give Hassa a spray, not because he had been playing poorly, but because his team mates were, and they couldnt take the message directly.  It is all about people management.

I am not sure a coach needs to be liked, but they do need to be respected.

 

[Demon17 5,188]

19 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

We did improve under Roos from a defensive point of view. Under Neeld we were getting dismantled every week, not too dissimilar to North.

Roos built a defensive foundation and 2 way running. It wasn't always well executed because as you say, we had a poor list, but there is no doubt the 'buy in' from the playing group under Roos as a whole would have been much higher than under Neeld.

I know Roos isn't a people person either, but he commanded the respect that Neeld could only dream of.

Noble is very different and comes with a long and respected history in our game. 

good summary.

 

Pre-Roos the Dees were just embarrassing.

Roos gave the club a sliver of self-esteem and built around that and stopped the on-field bleeding with a fix the defensive efforts first. Setting up the team for finlas in Goody's first year which should have happened(2017)

Others then built a list on the foundations .

No way is Neeld a David Noble either. vastly diferent circumstances and an insult to Noble.

[DubDee 25,869]

Whoever gets the job with North will be sacked within 2 seasons (unless they manage to get Clarkson)

they need 3 more drafts of talent and will not improve much in next 5 years