9 hours ago, Apocalypse XXXI said:

Would it be a wild guess to suggest that this Knightmare is a Collingwood fan?

Either that or he gets more clicks for over rating Collingwood.

26 minutes ago, The Jackson 6 said:

As recently as 12 months ago he was still banging on about the fact he was miffed Melbourne didn’t call out Tom Green’s name on the night.  HE WASNT AVAILABLE TO US YOU TALENTLESS CLOWN.

Apologies, my C-grade-footy-journo anger got to me again.

1 hour ago, The Jackson 6 said:

As recently as 12 months ago he was still banging on about the fact he was miffed Melbourne didn’t call out Tom Green’s name on the night.  HE WASNT AVAILABLE TO US YOU TALENTLESS CLOWN.

Numerous reports had the Giants desperate to take Jackson and therefore likely to pass on matching the bid if we had made it.

I like Knightmare. Sure, he’s a bit ornery at times. And his writing and videos could do with major reformatting. Of course he makes mistakes and the occasional short cut. But when traditional media is ever declining at least he gives it a go.

14 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Numerous reports had the Giants desperate to take Jackson and therefore likely to pass on matching the bid if we had made it.

I like Knightmare. Sure, he’s a bit ornery at times. And his writing and videos could do with major reformatting. Of course he makes mistakes and the occasional short cut. But when traditional media is ever declining at least he gives it a go.

It’s hardly a passion-project. He is employed by ESPN.

11 hours ago, dworship said:

Misfire, wait 20mins next time.

Fair dinkum, you get hysterical when someone douses your flames.

 

1 hour ago, The Jackson 6 said:

As recently as 12 months ago he was still banging on about the fact he was miffed Melbourne didn’t call out Tom Green’s name on the night.  HE WASNT AVAILABLE TO US YOU TALENTLESS CLOWN.

KM falls in love with certain players and maintains that almost regardless of AFL transition and output 

A good example of this are his claims Jake Lukosius is the best player from the 2018 draft 

 

11 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Jackson is a remarkable athlete and also capable of playing a role for which he was the standout option very early on really. Being able to hold up in the ruck in year and even more so in year 2 meant he was just about a lock in the side and could play quiet games.

Further to that if the draft is a Bell curve then JVR at pick 19 is really miles from Jackson at pick 3 and somewhere between Weid, Pickett and Bowey, Laurie, Spargo, Sparrow, Rivers, JJ and even Petty.

Of all those players he might remind me most of a key forward version of Sparrow. Athletic, decent build, likely to have a crack, but with a fair amount of development work to really contribute and find a role behind a  number of strong team mates. 

But there's a range of options from Bowey's flag in 7 games to someone like Spargo. Making a real difference in year 1 as a skinny kid but taking unitl year 4 to really put it together consistently. 

I understand what you are saying.

My point is that he is not a development player...he is a player that is in development (as are all players) but expected to be a senior player going forward. When is the question as you rightly point out.

...but it's important for him to be pushing for senior selection from day one.

The best development he can have is playing senior footy not at Casey.

If you get stuck developing at Casey you end up out of the system sooner or later.

 

 

Edited January 15, 20223 yr by rjay

2 hours ago, The Jackson 6 said:

It’s hardly a passion-project. He is employed by ESPN.

I’d argue it’s absolutely a passion project and he’s hardly employed by ESPN.

A monthly article in season and a few extra either side of the draft won’t be paying him enough to really study the draft pool. Even watching a few games a week doesn’t get close to what recruiters do in full time jobs.

He’s a passionate amateur draft fan with a little insight and adds a small bit to a very limited conversation. Certainly not worth getting hung up on his opinions. 

2 hours ago, adonski said:

KM falls in love with certain players and maintains that almost regardless of AFL transition and output 

A good example of this are his claims Jake Lukosius is the best player from the 2018 draft 

 

If Lukosious didn't play for the Suns he would be much more highly regarded.

15 minutes ago, Left Foot Snap said:

If Lukosious didn't play for the Suns he would be much more highly regarded.

I'm not sure about that. Recruited as a key forward and moved back because he's soft. He is very much in the Watts mould.

6 hours ago, rjay said:

I understand what you are saying.

My point is that he is not a development player...he is a player that is in development (as are all players) but expected to be a senior player going forward. When is the question as you rightly point out.

...but it's important for him to be pushing for senior selection from day one.

The best development he can have is playing senior footy not at Casey.

If you get stuck developing at Casey you end up out of the system sooner or later.

 

 

I don't agree with that part. 

Sparrow played round 1 of the AFL season but we had a stupid injury list and he was miles off AFL level, then his VFL form in year 1 before injury wasn't pushing his name back up at all.

Petty had great VFL games in year 1 but he was patchy. Excellent at intercepting some weeks, a little lax defending in others. He wasn't ready when he got a game in year 1, and even in year 2 he was patchy down back. Then missed all of year 3 before a breakout year 4.

James Jordon looked vanilla in year 1. Clearly he played well in some of the hidden practice matches of 2020 but he was a shock this year compared with when I last saw him.

Bailey Laurie just had a year ruined by injury and the VFL shutdown but managed a few VFL games without threatening a debut, I very much hope that doesn't mean anything long term for him.

Jason Taylor always says something along the lines of 'they develop at different rates'. I think year 1 is more about getting the mind and body conditioned to AFL footy life and being ready to attack years 2 and 3 than it is Casey performances. Obviously we've drafted some standout young players but it's the physical and mental application to improve that's impressed me with many of our young players. Particularly given that's an area we struggled in for so long.

13 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I don't agree with that part. 

Sparrow played round 1 of the AFL season but we had a stupid injury list and he was miles off AFL level, then his VFL form in year 1 before injury wasn't pushing his name back up at all.

Petty had great VFL games in year 1 but he was patchy. Excellent at intercepting some weeks, a little lax defending in others. He wasn't ready when he got a game in year 1, and even in year 2 he was patchy down back. Then missed all of year 3 before a breakout year 4.

James Jordon looked vanilla in year 1. Clearly he played well in some of the hidden practice matches of 2020 but he was a shock this year compared with when I last saw him.

Bailey Laurie just had a year ruined by injury and the VFL shutdown but managed a few VFL games without threatening a debut, I very much hope that doesn't mean anything long term for him.

Jason Taylor always says something along the lines of 'they develop at different rates'. I think year 1 is more about getting the mind and body conditioned to AFL footy life and being ready to attack years 2 and 3 than it is Casey performances. Obviously we've drafted some standout young players but it's the physical and mental application to improve that's impressed me with many of our young players. Particularly given that's an area we struggled in for so long.

That's a very grounded and reasonable assessment of all of those players. Well done.

Problem @adonski?

Did I miss something?

54 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I don't agree with that part. 

Sparrow played round 1 of the AFL season but we had a stupid injury list and he was miles off AFL level, then his VFL form in year 1 before injury wasn't pushing his name back up at all.

Petty had great VFL games in year 1 but he was patchy. Excellent at intercepting some weeks, a little lax defending in others. He wasn't ready when he got a game in year 1, and even in year 2 he was patchy down back. Then missed all of year 3 before a breakout year 4.

James Jordon looked vanilla in year 1. Clearly he played well in some of the hidden practice matches of 2020 but he was a shock this year compared with when I last saw him.

Bailey Laurie just had a year ruined by injury and the VFL shutdown but managed a few VFL games without threatening a debut, I very much hope that doesn't mean anything long term for him.

Jason Taylor always says something along the lines of 'they develop at different rates'. I think year 1 is more about getting the mind and body conditioned to AFL footy life and being ready to attack years 2 and 3 than it is Casey performances. Obviously we've drafted some standout young players but it's the physical and mental application to improve that's impressed me with many of our young players. Particularly given that's an area we struggled in for so long.

I think rjays argument, which I agree with, is if you take a round 1 draftee, you expect them to become a good afl player, and if they don’t play at least some afl games in year 1 it’s an anomaly. None of your examples were first round. Expectations in year 1 for a KPF if they get picked won’t be high, but they should be good enough to push for selection and inevitably get an opportunity to give them a taste. If we have no injuries or illness to key forwards, then so be it, but if we do you would expect JVR to be demanding an opportunity.

For JVRs profile, where I don’t see a freakish athletic attribute, expectations should be pretty low if he gets picked as it will take 3 or 4 years to develop the endurance and strength to be a good afl player and longer to be elite. More like a Josh Kennedy than a Buddy Franklin.

3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I don't agree with that part. 

So you don't think he should aspire to play round 1.

I'm not saying he will or he will even be looked at but surely he should be doing all in his power to play round 1.

He's got to want it...that's all I'm saying.

Maybe I didn't express myself correctly.

17 hours ago, rjay said:

I understand what you are saying.

My point is that he is not a development player...he is a player that is in development (as are all players) but expected to be a senior player going forward. When is the question as you rightly point out.

...but it's important for him to be pushing for senior selection from day one.

The best development he can have is playing senior footy not at Casey.

If you get stuck developing at Casey you end up out of the system sooner or later.

 

 

Jordon says hi !! Sparrow says gooday!!

On 1/13/2022 at 8:41 PM, Mazer Rackham said:

Discourage X factor? A large dose of X factor took us from 19 points down to stunned and demoralised oppo in 10 minutes of football.

Worker ants like ANB, Harmes, Spargo, are well and good (not discounting Harmes' little bit of X to start the riot) and every team needs them, but they don't give you bang bang bang to destroy a good team.

Well in a way they do. But it's in smaller doses. Look at the fourth quarter virtually every Melb player did something special.

Right  down to Pickett who had an almost day all teamed together but we know Clarry and Trac and Jack V were the ringleaders. 
Spargo and Harmesy did have highlights and actually ANB played his best game and was in our best half dozen I believe. 

12 hours ago, rjay said:

So you don't think he should aspire to play round 1.

I'm not saying he will or he will even be looked at but surely he should be doing all in his power to play round 1.

He's got to want it...that's all I'm saying.

Maybe I didn't express myself correctly.

I think I get where you're coming from with development now. You can't assume it's some kind of passive process. Head down to Casey, do my development time isn't the right thinking. I certainly want all our young players thinking of themselves as AFL footballers and actively working to improve.

But that can be true without such a clear goal of playing round 1 or early. I think we're more process driven these days. It's about ticking off the skills required to play team football and improve in that way. AFL history is filled with guys who played very early then didn't have great careers, whilst others came in a long way off and played 200+ games.

I look at Bowey who I don't think once expressed any great desire to be picked in the side. He seemed very relaxed about it when he was interviewed. His focus was ticking off the things the coaches asked with his defensive game.

Bowey had the advantage of having AFL ready skills and facets to his game, so it was pretty clear what he had to do. JVR as a young tall might have a lot more to work on, but a similar focus on the process of what he has to do to be an AFL standard team player is what I'd ask him to do. Pretty keen to see how he goes with competing in the air, getting contest to contest and with his defensive work/tackling. If he can impress in those areas he might be closer than I think to playing.

I think he arrived at a club where the development coach in Mark Williams is an intelligent ex-premiiership coach and a great mentor of young players developing Port, GWS and Richmond players during his football career.

Mark Williams helped developed Warren Tredrea who became a great CHF in a premiership team.

A lot of Richmond supporters believe he helped Dustin Martin become the footballer he was destined to be.

So Jacob has some of the tools but his football education begins now, where he has to focus on the things he does not do so well and improve on them.

As Malcolm Blight once sad 'learn to do the simple things very well and improve in the other areas makes a great footballer'.

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

I think I get where you're coming from with development now. You can't assume it's some kind of passive process. Head down to Casey, do my development time isn't the right thinking. I certainly want all our young players thinking of themselves as AFL footballers and actively working to improve.

Yep, that's my thinking.

I remember in the dark days when we recruited Lucas Cook.

In one of his first interviews he talked of playing at Casey, developing his game.

It seemed like he did assume it was some kind of passive process.

There was no aspiration...I really worried about him from then on.

As you say our approach has changed significantly since those days in drafting and development.

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Bowey had the advantage of having AFL ready skills and facets to his game, so it was pretty clear what he had to do.

He did have the skill set...

...and coming into a backline with Lever, May and Salem was also a huge advantage.

The lessons he would have received from them are priceless, not to mention playing against the best...these are the things you don't get at Casey.

I know a few members of Taylor Duryeas family.
He was told by Hawthorn when drafted in 2009 that they'd take 3years to turn him into the player they wanted him to be.
Made his debut rd3 2013.

I know VR's a different beast but we're in a similar position to what the Dawks were then and he'll get a run when Goodwin and co. are happy with him.
Not before.


 

Edited January 16, 20223 yr by Fork 'em

1 hour ago, rjay said:

Yep, that's my thinking.

I remember in the dark days when we recruited Lucas Cook.

In one of his first interviews he talked of playing at Casey, developing his game.

It seemed like he did assume it was some kind of passive process.

There was no aspiration...I really worried about him from then on.

As you say our approach has changed significantly since those days in drafting and development.

He did have the skill set...

...and coming into a backline with Lever, May and Salem was also a huge advantage.

The lessons he would have received from them are priceless, not to mention playing against the best...these are the things you don't get at Casey.

If a player has got the right stuff he'll play early ... at local level I've seen any number of teenagers playing in the seniors (early) because they just can't be held back

And there is nothing like learning on the job if the structures, systems and those surrounding you have got what it takes

Test them early but only persevere if worthwhile. Or, if they are really raw, give them an extended run in the 2's.  It's not one size fits all

Equally, I've seen any number of players waste their talent and not make it.  Some were so lazy (and not switched on) that they weren't even given a chance.  And rightly so too

And we now have real proof that the current match committee & coaching staff actually know what they are doing

Knightmare seems to love doing what he does. He gets notoriety from it and seems to enjoy watching the players too.

I think it's very difficult to be a draft analyst without access to the clubs because you simply don't have the resources available to know any players other than the obvious ones. As a result you have a very strong bias towards the high production players in the mainstream underage competitions, and it's then easy to reinforce those opinions as those obvious players keep putting in good performances.

But good, high production underage players aren't necessarily good AFL players, because the roles these players play at underage level (usually a ball winning midfielder) usually aren't the roles they will play at AFL level, as those positions are taken by the best players in the competition. 

The other part is that it can be very difficult to go against the grain by trusting your eye and risk looking stupid. As a result he just follows the consensus. Ranking players is really hard, which I think people underestimate. Once those on the internet come to a consensus it becomes very hard to break, and then people rank the success or failure of a team's drafting based on that internet consensus .... except that the internet consensus is not a reflection of reality. 

I don't think he has a very good eye for talent spotting, but I am sympathetic to his draft rankings because it is much harder to formulate than it appears (especially without using a reference, such as the internet consensus). I am vastly less sympathetic to his ratings of a team's drafting/draft grades because it reflects a lack of self-understanding of just how far away from reality he really is.

Edited January 16, 20223 yr by Axis of Bob

2 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

I know a few members of Taylor Duryeas family.
He was told by Hawthorn when drafted in 2009 that they'd take 3years to turn him into the player they wanted him to be.
Made his debut rd3 2013.

I know VR's a different beast but we're in a similar position to what the Dawks were then and he'll get a run when Goodwin and co. are happy with him.
Not before.


 

Duryea was a 5th round selection...at that pick you are a development/spec pick.

JVR will come in as you say when and if ready,  but as a first round pick if he doesn't get a game in his first 3 years he's more likely to be a bust.

I trust that won't be the case.

I’d be having JVR paired up with Fritta, to specifically learn what he does as a mobile medium tall forward. If Bailey was to be injured or I’ll, line JVR to drop into his slot..?