TEAMS: Rd 19 vs Western Bulldogs

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

2 hours ago, binman said:

Viney, on the other hand is a fantastic defensive mid. Which is why, much to the confusion of some fans, he polls so highly in the bluey every year.

If you're a Chelsea fan - you'll get the link

 

Actually Bin, I think you are on to something in the use of language of 'defensive'. If there was media commentary around that role and what it entails, then the midfielder (who is operating as a defensive mid) wouldn't be seen as performing as poorly, but performing in line with the specific role.

Viney is an excellent defensive mid.

Gus was not. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Engorged Onion

[rpfc 28,263]

12 minutes ago, BW511 said:

I think he well and truly has

Few more. 

You don’t drop guns like him with the year he has had after a bad fortnight. We are only a few weeks out from when he graduated to taking 44% of the ruck. 

I think some of you are losing the forest for the trees here. Our role players are young and that needs to be noted when we place our expectations.

[binman 42,683]

1 hour ago, 1964_2 said:

what is your view on the timing of these extra training loads? 

ie loads done, and now ease back trying to peak for this last month + finals? 

or more weeks of higher loads? 

 

our ladder position, our fitness boss’ history, and our fixture all lead to the conclusion that the past month or so would have been a pretty ideal time to increase the loads (and I am sure they accept that you likely have to sacrifice a loss or two for the benefit of peaking at finals time) 

 

I'm totally guessing to be honest

But my best guess (based on our performances, the numbers, my impression they have looked fatigued and the scheduling timing of games) is that we have been loading since before the Pies game. And perhaps continued right up to the Hawks game.

All guess work on my part, but surely they would be looking to start tapering now. Certainly you'd think they would want to be as fresh as possible for the dogs game, which would mean a lighter week on the track and in the weights room.

For the port game, given the 5 day break and travel , we likely did very little aerobic or weights in the lead up which may explain why we were pretty fresh. Its worth noting though that we basically dropped down a gear in the last quarter of that game.

Hypothetically, if Burgess wanted to do one last blast of high intensity training (eg extra weights sessions, extra running etc) after the Port game, the ten day break before the Hawks game provided the perfect opportunity to do so. By that I mean he could [censored] them  for 5 or 6 days and still give them a four day spell leading up to the game.

If we did do some heavy loads in the lead up to the hawks game then fatigue would continue to be a factor.

I heard Leigh Matthews say, that watching the hawks dees game it look liked we had led in our boots. That's how it looked to me too. Extra loads would go along way to explain our performance. It was factor in the Pies and Bombers game - why not now?

Increased training loads would also jibe with the significant reduction in game time for  players such as Jackson, Max and Spargo in the hawks game (ie managing their overall loads across training and games). 

With almost every player on the list fit, Burgess has the luxury of being able to plan loads to an exact degree.

Our ladder position and the wins we have banked give us another advantage in terms of loads. Other teams are not so fortunate. For example, Port are no doubt desperate to finish top 4 have to priorities winning games now. They also have quite a few injury concerns. If they did big loads now they might lose game they might otherwise win. But not loading might mean they are are not as fit come finals as us. 

The finals start in September. That's when we need to be at optimal fitness, not now. I suspect they have been still loading and will begin tapering from now and in the lead up to the finals do do limited aerobic or strength work.

 

 

[binman 42,683]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

Not whipping from my perspective Gus is  just not being played in the right position because Viney cant or wont play anywhere else

 

You think Viney makes that call?

In 2019 and 2020 they made a call on Brayshaw. And that call was his days as an inside mid at the dees were done.

And his days at the dees were done, if he could not adapt and play the position Goody asked to play.

Last year, in response to people calling for him to be played in the midfield and the rumors about him wanting out,  I remember writing that he is a professional footballer who needs to suck it up and play where the coach tells him he has to play.

And calling out how ridiculous it is for a supposedly elite player to only want to play in his preferred position or not be adaptable enough to play in other positions. 

I have a lot of respect for the way Gus has got his act together, do the work required on his game (eg fitness, defensive mind set) and realization that he needs to play the role his coach wants him to play, and his teams needs him to play.

Edited July 23, 2021 by binman

[BW511 2,661]

25 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Few more. 

You don’t drop guns like him with the year he has had after a bad fortnight. We are only a few weeks out from when he graduated to taking 44% of the ruck. 

I think some of you are losing the forest for the trees here. Our role players are young and that needs to be noted when we place our expectations.

I think he's played his role well this year, particularly as a very young fella.

Just not sure his output warrants a guaranteed place after the last 4-5 weeks

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

Perhaps your supposition is correct that LJ is playing behind the ball. But the above ‘heat maps’ are where he gets the ball, not where he runs to, so he just may be not getting the pill.

On a larger note, Jackson is a point of difference and a future gun - we have to keep him long term to replace Gawn.

But… if he isn’t doing what he needs to do then Weideman is an excellent replacement. He is a forward who rucks and is comfortable up the ground. His ruck work is also better than average.

IMO LJ would have to have a pretty down few games to get to that point.

I don't think he's necessarily playing behind the ball a lot, just that he's not really forward very often. That was my gut feel watching him since the bye which is why I went and sussed out the heat maps.

He's a unique player Jacko. I'm a Weid fan, think long term he'll be a decent player, but I wouldn't be replacing Dogga with him unless he was badly out of form for a month as I think Dogga's better below his knees and has better vision when up the ground, although Weid has him covered as a forward. Personally I think Brown should come out before Jackson does if he can't find some form.

[old55 23,404]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

Not whipping from my perspective Gus is  just not being played in the right position because Viney cant or wont play anywhere else

 

This is just nonsense because Gus was playing the same role when Jack was out of the side for 7 weeks.

[deelusions from afar 1,802]

5 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

This is just nonsense because Gus was playing the same role when Jack was out of the side for 7 weeks.

Don't think this is what people are referring to, but have people noticed that (maybe with Viney back?) Jordon seems to be playing the wing more than Brayshaw?

[old55 23,404]

4 minutes ago, deelusions from afar said:

Don't think this is what people are referring to, but have people noticed that (maybe with Viney back?) Jordon seems to be playing the wing more than Brayshaw?

I think, that's about Jordon and not about Brayshaw.

[dazzledavey36 54,285]

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

Perhaps your supposition is correct that LJ is playing behind the ball. But the above ‘heat maps’ are where he gets the ball, not where he runs to, so he just may be not getting the pill.

On a larger note, Jackson is a point of difference and a future gun - we have to keep him long term to replace Gawn.

But… if he isn’t doing what he needs to do then Weideman is an excellent replacement. He is a forward who rucks and is comfortable up the ground. His ruck work is also better than average.

IMO LJ would have to have a pretty down few games to get to that point.

To be honest since the bye, Jackson has been down in majority of those games since. 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

18 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Is it, though?

It's one thing to stop May and Lever taking intercept marks, but you then have to do something with it when the ball hits the deck.

I'm sure, though, that they won't have all of Naughton, Bruce, Ugle-Hagan, Schache and English forward at once. Most likely English/Bruce will be in the ruck, and one of the others will be on the bench, meaning three at a time with mediums/smalls around them.

Ugle-Hagan was good last week but nowhere the week before when the pressure was on vs Sydney. Schache is just meh.

My concern remains, as it would have been regardless of selection, on Naughton and their midfield.

We don't have much history to go by but at least 3 out of the 4 the losses this year included measures in opposition game plan to consciously avoid the intercept and have defensive minded forwards. I cant recall whether we have won any games with this tactic being employed. 

The strengths of the Doggies is absolutely their ball movement from stoppages and their spread. Whilst we get sucked into the contest, they send fewer players inside and sling shot out. They have good ball users in the HF and can deliver deadly blows through smart/quick f50 connection. 

The tactics of this game will be interesting because the Doggies like to send an extra number into a stoppage / contest area while we are happy to have our extra in a defensive sweeper role. If both teams play their own style we will see a similar result where our midfield pressure and defensive structure will probably win out. If, however, the doggies have done what others have, then it will be an even midfield contest and if we are losing against bottom 4 sides in this situation, i cannot fathom what a Bulldogs outfit will be able to accomplish. 

[Jaded No More 68,867]

24 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

To be honest since the bye, Jackson has been down in majority of those games since. 

Sounds about right if you believe the rumours that we have been doing a very hard block of training. This loading would be very difficult for young players particularly. Makes sense that Jackson and Rivers have both been well down.

I still maintain that continuity of personnel and roles is the single most important thing you can do leading into finals. I rather carry Jackson for a few weeks if he's having a down patch, than tinker with a very important cog in our machine. We know we want him there come finals, so we need him to gain that experience and continue on with the plan around him and Gawn.

Of course this doesn't apply to injuries. If someone is injured and needs a rest, of course you do that now and not wait until the injury gets worse. But if the issue is fatigue and a down patch that is completely normal for first and second year players, than so be it. Him and Rivers are important parts of our gameplan, as is Kosi, and all 3 will stay in the side unless they are injured. 

Much easier to carry a best 22 player who is down on form, than constantly bring in new faces and try to include them in a well drilled system perfected by the same 22 players for 18 weeks. Petty is a perfect example of this. When Tomlinson went down, he was the next in line logical replacement. We brought him in, and we have played him week in week out, despite some down form early on, because we knew how vital it was for him to gel with May and Lever. It's now paying off and we miss Tomlinson a lot less than I think most of us expected we will.

Gawn and Jackson have a really good partnership. I would go as far as to say they are the best ruck duo in the competition right now. Even when Jackson is down, his ruckwork is solid and allows us to put Gawn where we need him on the field. This is vital and one of the key reasons to our success this year.

 

Edit- I know you aren't having a go at Jackson and I am not having a go at you. Just wanted to pick that point up. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Jaded

[Adam The God 30,129]

47 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

I think, that's about Jordon and not about Brayshaw.

I have a feeling it might be about Jordon and Viney. They want a pure mid as an inside slider from half forward. Viney did it earlier in the season, as did JJ and now Gus is doing it.

[1964_2 2,357]

50 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

To be honest since the bye, Jackson has been down in majority of those games since. 

Since the bye Jackson has come in from $15 to clear second fav for the rising star - so clearly some people think he has been playing ok. 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

8 hours ago, BDA said:

The Weid is an option. He's been playing the role in the limited VFL matches since being dropped and has made a decent go of it. I wouldn't be against him getting a run if Dogga continues to underperfrom

 

Yes he had one very good game since going back BDA.

That was in a non-rucking utility role between the arcs and pushing forward a little.  Played a VG game alongside AVB and Melk with Chunk easily BOG in that match but unfortunately incurred the calf issue at some point.  Pretty sure Chunk would've got the call up before AVB had he not been injured.

Dogga might be doing similar but he does make a decent ruck fill in for Max when resting.  Super mobile on the ground and almost like having an extra mid.  A little like Hogan when he played in the HHF role in 2018, albeit i don't think he ever rucked at all. However, Dogga's form has slowly ebbed away these past three or four weeks.

I'm not sure the Weid is much chop in the ruck either.  I'm also still not convinced he's able to take things to the next level and bring what he did that day in the VFL to the seniors.  Having said that though i still think there might be a place for him across HB if an injury occurs to say Petty (Lucifer forbid). But even then Smith would be well ahead for that role at this stage i'm guessing

Present line up well settled now though and going to be VERY difficult for anyone to force their way in other than if we incur an injury.  Hopefully zero of those.  But also no VFL now has made it almost impossible, outside of injury, for alternatives to show off any form they might have and force their way in.  Yes, there is always the ability to train the house down but i'm not sure that holds as much sway with the selectors on its own without a Casey run.

I'm also still not convinced that our depth bats very deep.  A few injuries (touch wood) and i think we might struggle to fill a gap or two.

Based on form in the last few VFL games the only genuine "filler" candidates that IMV the selectors might consider in order are (to various degrees and depending on the role needing to be filled and their fitness status)...

• Chunk & AVB; then
• Sparrow, Melk, Lockhart & Smith; then
• Weid

One player i would love to see get a run, but very much doubt he will at this late stage and unlikely to be ready for the step up right now anyway is Declase.  The other is Rosman but again way too early me thinks.  Will more than likely get some looks at both in 2022.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Rusty Nails

[Redleg 40,843]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

To be honest since the bye, Jackson has been down in majority of those games since. 

I was wondering why they wouldn't give him a freshen up and play Weid, who can ruck and play forward. 

[titan_uranus 24,975]

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

I was wondering why they wouldn't give him a freshen up and play Weid, who can ruck and play forward. 

Maybe because Jackson's not playing as badly as some on Demonland think, whilst Weideman would hardly be an upgrade?

Jackson's primary benefit to the side is his time in the ruck/midfield, not his time in the forward line. Weideman would be the opposite way around. It throws structures out. Weideman can't run around in the midfield covering the more athletic rucks (like Tim English) the way Jackson can, and he's never really shown an ability to be a link up midfielder like Jackson.

[dazzledavey36 54,285]

2 hours ago, Jaded said:

Sounds about right if you believe the rumours that we have been doing a very hard block of training. This loading would be very difficult for young players particularly. Makes sense that Jackson and Rivers have both been well down.

I still maintain that continuity of personnel and roles is the single most important thing you can do leading into finals. I rather carry Jackson for a few weeks if he's having a down patch, than tinker with a very important cog in our machine. We know we want him there come finals, so we need him to gain that experience and continue on with the plan around him and Gawn.

Of course this doesn't apply to injuries. If someone is injured and needs a rest, of course you do that now and not wait until the injury gets worse. But if the issue is fatigue and a down patch that is completely normal for first and second year players, than so be it. Him and Rivers are important parts of our gameplan, as is Kosi, and all 3 will stay in the side unless they are injured. 

Much easier to carry a best 22 player who is down on form, than constantly bring in new faces and try to include them in a well drilled system perfected by the same 22 players for 18 weeks. Petty is a perfect example of this. When Tomlinson went down, he was the next in line logical replacement. We brought him in, and we have played him week in week out, despite some down form early on, because we knew how vital it was for him to gel with May and Lever. It's now paying off and we miss Tomlinson a lot less than I think most of us expected we will.

Gawn and Jackson have a really good partnership. I would go as far as to say they are the best ruck duo in the competition right now. Even when Jackson is down, his ruckwork is solid and allows us to put Gawn where we need him on the field. This is vital and one of the key reasons to our success this year.

 

Edit- I know you aren't having a go at Jackson and I am not having a go at you. Just wanted to pick that point up. 

None intended.

All good points you make Jaded.

[dazzledavey36 54,285]

2 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

Since the bye Jackson has come in from $15 to clear second fav for the rising star - so clearly some people think he has been playing ok. 

I don't bet and never have.

I also don't use betting forums as an indication of form.

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

I was wondering why they wouldn't give him a freshen up and play Weid, who can ruck and play forward. 

Doesn't have to be Weid. Even if they wanted to go small and bring in Melksham. Felt like our ball use up forward has been fair poor lately. As I've already stated, Melksham has frustrated me this year, but maybe we need his experience and ball use coming up to finals.

[titan_uranus 24,975]

4 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Doesn't have to be Weid. Even if they wanted to go small and bring in Melksham. Felt like our ball use up forward has been fair poor lately. As I've already stated, Melksham has frustrated me this year, but maybe we need his experience and ball use coming up to finals.

Melksham (at least 2018 Melksham) isn't a bad idea given our forward 50 connection, but I see two issues with him replacing Jackson:

1. Who's the second ruck? Can we afford to send TMac into the ruck, leaving us with just Brown up forward?
2. Can we play a forward line with both Fritsch and Melksham in it? We've run into forward pressure difficulties before when we've done that.

[dazzledavey36 54,285]

Just now, titan_uranus said:

Melksham (at least 2018 Melksham) isn't a bad idea given our forward 50 connection, but I see two issues with him replacing Jackson:

1. Who's the second ruck? Can we afford to send TMac into the ruck, leaving us with just Brown up forward?
2. Can we play a forward line with both Fritsch and Melksham in it? We've run into forward pressure difficulties before when we've done that.

I was watching replay of the Geelong game of 2018 where we lost after the siren.

His ball use and creativity inside forward 50 was as good I've seen. And even his finals series that year was phenomenal.  Need that form back from Melksham.

1. I honestly think we could. But for this to work it comes down to the ball carrier being smart with their ball use going inside 50. Couldn't afford to just bomb it on BB head at every opportunity. 

2. That's the other counter argument. Having Melksham and Fritta neglects our pressure as both are both in keeping the ball inside our forward 50. It's my other worry as well.

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

11 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I was watching replay of the Geelong game of 2018 where we lost after the siren.

His ball use and creativity inside forward 50 was as good I've seen. And even his finals series that year was phenomenal.  Need that form back from Melksham.

1. I honestly think we could. But for this to work it comes down to the ball carrier being smart with their ball use going inside 50. Couldn't afford to just bomb it on BB head at every opportunity. 

2. That's the other counter argument. Having Melksham and Fritta neglects our pressure as both are both in keeping the ball inside our forward 50. It's my other worry as well.

Mmmmm

Pressure vs Delivery.

 

I'm Libran, it's all about the weight of scales.

[titan_uranus 24,975]

21 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I was watching replay of the Geelong game of 2018 where we lost after the siren.

His ball use and creativity inside forward 50 was as good I've seen. And even his finals series that year was phenomenal.  Need that form back from Melksham.

1. I honestly think we could. But for this to work it comes down to the ball carrier being smart with their ball use going inside 50. Couldn't afford to just bomb it on BB head at every opportunity. 

2. That's the other counter argument. Having Melksham and Fritta neglects our pressure as both are both in keeping the ball inside our forward 50. It's my other worry as well.

Yep. 2018 Melksham would be playing for us right now.

Unfortunately it seems we're stuck with 2019-20 Melksham, which isn't anywhere near as enticing.

I don't like the idea of putting TMac in the ruck. He's neither a ruckman nor a clearance midfielder, and whilst he does get plenty of ball between the arcs, I feel like we'd be one down in stoppages every time he's the ruckman: I don't feel that way at all with Jackson (and obviously also with Gawn).

It's not the end of the world to have to use Weid or TMac in the ruck: if Jackson were injured, that's what we'd do you'd think. But with Jackson available I think the structural benefit he brings and the relief it gives Gawn outweigh his current poor form in the forward line.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

58 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

It's not the end of the world to have to use Weid or TMac in the ruck: if Jackson were injured, that's what we'd do you'd think. But with Jackson available I think the structural benefit he brings and the relief it gives Gawn outweigh his current poor form in the forward line.

If we are ever forced into using either of those in that role for an extended period you can kiss season 2021 goodbye TU