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COVID & AFL 2021

Demonland
in Melbourne Demons

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58 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

I literally said "Of course, if you have not been able to access Pfizer, that is a different story."

If you have chosen not to be vaccinated, you are part of the problem.

What is the basis for someone over 60 having "some sort of issue causing them concern getting the AZ"?

I submit there isn't one.

Many are not 'choosing' of their own accord though TU.

They are looking for guidance from more learned / trusted authorities such as their GP and/or ATAGI etc.  Certainly not politicians or Health Officers appointed by / for / on behalf of politicians who may or may not be independent of the political mechanations.

And in some cases that advice is suggesting they seek to obtain one vaccine over another, depending on age  and / or pre-existing conditions, based on latest available data/research.

If some are unable to obtain Pfizer (to this point) due to supply issues and that is the preferred / advised course of action (after they sought the advice) then remaining unvaccinated until now is hardly their fault, nor one to be victimised or punished over surely.

And not just Pfizer.  AZ is apparently in limited supply in Brissy and local surrounds possibly in part because of certain political biases / preferences.

Edited by Rusty Nails

 
2 hours ago, Kent said:

You Dr Know seem  nothing about how the political world works 

Perhaps your political development has been stunted by the ABC who really knows what the challenges have been for the government

You must be much smarter than the rest of us because you seem to know

If you'd like to resubmit this in English I'd be happy to respond.

    • Haha 2
    1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

    I literally said "Of course, if you have not been able to access Pfizer, that is a different story."

    If you have chosen not to be vaccinated, you are part of the problem.

    What is the basis for someone over 60 having "some sort of issue causing them concern getting the AZ"?

    I submit there isn't one.

    Are they required to sign indemnity forms before getting the vaccine? I don't think that's the case for any other vaccines is it (of course you have to for surgery but that is different)? With all the misinformation around and then being required to sign an indemnity form in case of adverse reactions I can understand why people are hesitant.

    I'll get the Pfizer vaccine when I can (still a few months shy if 40), both my in-laws and my dad have had AZ but my mum doesn't want it and is waiting for Pfizer. If the feds had gotten their act into gear earlier and taken this seriously instead of slinging mud at the states people may have had the option.

     
    16 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

    Many are not 'choosing' of their own accord though TU.

    They are looking for guidance from more learned / trusted authorities such as their GP and/or ATAGI etc.  Certainly not politicians or Health Officers appointed by / for / on behalf of politicians who may or may not be independent of the political mechanations.

    And in some cases that advice is suggesting they seek to obtain one vaccine over another, depending on age  and / or pre-existing conditions, based on latest available data/research.

    If some are unable to obtain Pfizer (to this point) due to supply issues and that is the preferred / advised course of action (after they sought the advice) then remaining unvaccinated until now is hardly their fault, nor one to be victimised or punished over surely.

    And not just Pfizer.  AZ is apparently in limited supply in Brissy and local surrounds possibly in part because of certain political biases / preferences.

    I've never suggested otherwise.

    I'm focusing only on over 60s, for whom the advice has consistently been to take AZ, or over 40s, who have been able to access Pfizer since May - there's no advice issue for those groups. 

    And I'm only focusing on those who have made a deliberate decision not to get the vaccine.

    There is clearly a supply/access issue and as I said, that's completely separate. 

    1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

    Are they required to sign indemnity forms before getting the vaccine? I don't think that's the case for any other vaccines is it (of course you have to for surgery but that is different)? With all the misinformation around and then being required to sign an indemnity form in case of adverse reactions I can understand why people are hesitant.

    I'll get the Pfizer vaccine when I can (still a few months shy if 40), both my in-laws and my dad have had AZ but my mum doesn't want it and is waiting for Pfizer. If the feds had gotten their act into gear earlier and taken this seriously instead of slinging mud at the states people may have had the option.

    I don't believe so.

    I'm under 40 and I received AZ after discussing it with my GP, who provided me with advice on the risks and benefits.

    • Like 2

    Starting to see the Lambda (South America) version in Asia and the Epsilon (Pakistan) is popping up in USA.

    What fun.


    57 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

    Starting to see the Lambda (South America) version in Asia and the Epsilon (Pakistan) is popping up in USA.

    What fun.

    I read that as the Lambada version.

    That does sound fun actually.

    Though given the Lamada is a two person dance (originating in Brazil) it would be hard to maintain appropriate social distance. Perhaps that makes it super transmissible. 

    And epsilon just sounds cool.

    3 minutes ago, binman said:

    I read that as the Lambada version.

    That does sound fun actually.

    Though given the Lamada is a two person dance (originating in Brazil) it would be hard to maintain appropriate social distance. Perhaps that makes it super transmissible. 

    And epsilon just sounds cool.

    Epsilon will sound a loss less cool when it's the reason for lockdown 14 

    18 hours ago, Wadda We Sing said:

    I think one major break though LH is the antiviral nanoparticle treatment that has been developed by QLD researches, notably Professor Kevin Morris and American scientists. In trials earlier this year with animals the treatment killed 99.99% of the virus instantly. It works by attacking the virus genome directly which stops the virus from replicating. It will work on all betacoronaviruses including Sars-CoV-1 & 2 and any new variants that may arise in the future. The nanoparticles are stable at 4C for 12 months or room temperature for 1 month indicating that their use in lower resourced countries can be implemented.

    This may be available to patients who either have CoVid or were recently exposed, by as early as 2023 if the next phase clinical trial results are successful.

    Many thanks for the info.  Very encouraging.  It will be quite reassuring to know that if someone catches covid there is an effective treatment.

    A shame it can't happen faster especially for the 2nd and 3rd world countries.

    • Like 1
     

    11 linked cases, with 1 in isolation today.

    If we're 6 linked and all 6 were in isolation by Thursday, we'll come out of lockdown on Thursday and watch our boys play at the G in the qualifying final (IMO). A massively tall order though.

    • Shocked 1
    12 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

    I literally said "Of course, if you have not been able to access Pfizer, that is a different story."

    If you have chosen not to be vaccinated, you are part of the problem.

    What is the basis for someone over 60 having "some sort of issue causing them concern getting the AZ"?

    I submit there isn't one.

    It's interesting the issue is so binary for you.

    An epidemiologist from one of the Melb institutes was on the radio about a month ago, and when asked by Fran Kelly about hesitancy, she was very clear in pointing out that type of language is extremely unhelpful, as people quite rightly are nervous, and are taking a wait and see. She said there were about 4 types of people, it was an interesting listen. I had a quick check but couldn't locate. Bottom line - the fact some people hadn't got it - yet - didn't mean they hadn't decided to ultimately not get it, they were quite legitimately nervous and were waiting to see. It's really quite rationale behaviour when you look at how the advice has changed so often, and the psychological effect of reports around clotting-related deaths.

    Some people over 60 may have an issue which renders them immuno-compromised, or contraindicated for AZ, or they might be disabled.

    We could argue all day about what the cause of the problem is, but  I sense that would be pointless.

    Edit: I missed the part where you said you're focussing on over 60s exclusively in relation to your comments.

    Back to the topic at hand.

    Edited by Superunknown


    22 minutes ago, Bates Mate said:

    Epsilon will sound a loss less cool when it's the reason for lockdown 14 

    There's some very early reports suggesting this variant might pose the vaccines a problem.

    Fingers crossed for otherwise.

    • Shocked 1
    11 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

    Are they required to sign indemnity forms before getting the vaccine? I don't think that's the case for any other vaccines is it (of course you have to for surgery but that is different)? With all the misinformation around and then being required to sign an indemnity form in case of adverse reactions I can understand why people are hesitant.

    I'll get the Pfizer vaccine when I can (still a few months shy if 40), both my in-laws and my dad have had AZ but my mum doesn't want it and is waiting for Pfizer. If the feds had gotten their act into gear earlier and taken this seriously instead of slinging mud at the states people may have had the option.

    AFAIAA, Australia does not have a no fault compensation scheme for adverse vaccination outcomes, like similar OECD countries.

    10 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

    11 linked cases, with 1 in isolation today.

    If we're 6 linked and all 6 were in isolation by Thursday, we'll come out of lockdown on Thursday and watch our boys play at the G in the qualifying final (IMO). A massively tall order though.

    A big problem with this outbreak is the area it is in. The high risk settings we have already had exposures in. The low uptake of vaccinations and rule following in those suburbs and the fact that we've had a lot of random waste water detection and absolutely no links to how or where these outbreaks started. 

    They will be very cautious. I can't see us not being in lockdown for the full 14 days.

     

    • Like 2
    11 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

    Many are not 'choosing' of their own accord though TU.

    They are looking for guidance from more learned / trusted authorities such as their GP and/or ATAGI etc.  Certainly not politicians or Health Officers appointed by / for / on behalf of politicians who may or may not be independent of the political mechanations.

    And in some cases that advice is suggesting they seek to obtain one vaccine over another, depending on age  and / or pre-existing conditions, based on latest available data/research.

    If some are unable to obtain Pfizer (to this point) due to supply issues and that is the preferred / advised course of action (after they sought the advice) then remaining unvaccinated until now is hardly their fault, nor one to be victimised or punished over surely.

    And not just Pfizer.  AZ is apparently in limited supply in Brissy and local surrounds possibly in part because of certain political biases / preferences.

    Who appoints the ATAGI members? Pretty sure it's politicians. In other words, under your classifications scheme, ATAGI and Health Officials should be together. 

    The problem with ATAGI is that they have been looking at risk analysis purely from a health perspective and have not considered human behaviour at all. As a consequence, they have installed completely unnecessary fear in the comunity by inadvertently demonising AstraZeneca. And they've not been helped by the Qld Chief Health Officer. As an aside, I wonder wheher she's been appointed Qld's next Governor as a way of removing her from her current position? (That's pure speculation on my part, by the way.)

    • Like 1

    20 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

    The problem with ATAGI is that they have been looking at risk analysis purely from a health perspective and have not considered human behaviour at all. As a consequence, they have installed completely unnecessary fear in the comunity by inadvertently demonising AstraZeneca. 

    This is a narrative everyone should push back on.

    ATAGI was created by the federal government to provide health advice to government.

    Of course their advice is purely from a health perspective. That is their area of expertise and their terms of refence set by the government.  

    The government choose to accept the ATAGI advice. Or not.

    In making that decision they should consider a range of factors (and get expert advice as required) - human behavior, economic implications, impact on their plan for the vaccine roll, sociological behavior, messaging etc etc 

    It is not ATAGI who have installed completely unnecessary fear in the community by demonising AstraZeneca.

    The members of ATAGI must be livid that they have been thrown under the bus. 

    The real question who is pushing this false narrative and who benefits from the scapegoating of ATAGI?

     

    Edited by binman

    • Like 2
    28 minutes ago, Jaded said:

    A big problem with this outbreak is the area it is in. The high risk settings we have already had exposures in. The low uptake of vaccinations and rule following in those suburbs and the fact that we've had a lot of random waste water detection and absolutely no links to how or where these outbreaks started. 

    They will be very cautious. I can't see us not being in lockdown for the full 14 days.

     

    Yeah, I was kidding myself as I posted.

    No chance we're out of lockdown until Thu 19 Aug. 

    No crowds for 2 weekends after (round 23 and bye week) would have a crowd by qual final weekend at the absolute earliest, but probably more likely semi final weekend after the constant outbreaks we've had.

    2 minutes ago, binman said:

    This is a narrative everyone should push back on.

    ATAGI was created by the federal government to provide health advice to government.

    Of course their advice is purely from a health perspective. That is their area of expertise and their terms of refence set by the government.  

    The government choose to accept the ATAGI advice. Or not.

    In making that decision they should consider a range of factors (and get expert advice as required) - human behavior, economic implications, impact on their plan for the vaccine roll, sociological behavior, messaging etc etc 

    It is not ATAGI who have installed completely unnecessary fear in the community by demonising AstraZeneca.

    The real question who is pushing this false narrative and who benefits from the scapegoating of ATAGI?

     

    I feel like I'm reading one of the last chapters in Sophie's World. (Anyone who has read this book should understand. It's nominally a novel, but it's really a journey through the history of philosophy from the ancient Greeks through to modern philosophy...where it gets really weird and confusing.) 

    • Thanks 1
    8 minutes ago, deanox said:

    Just to clarify: I'm not sure 2nd and 3rd world means what you think it does.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World

    I was using them in the context of this part of your link:  "Since 1990 the term "Third World" has been redefined in many evolving dictionaries in several languages to refer to countries considered to be underdeveloped economically and/or socially". 

    Ditto 2nd world countries.


    8 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

    I was using them in the context of this part of your link:  "Since 1990 the term "Third World" has been redefined in many evolving dictionaries in several languages to refer to countries considered to be underdeveloped economically and/or socially". 

    Ditto 2nd world countries.

    Thanks for this, Dean, Lucifer and others. I'd come to think it came from 'Old World', New World, Third World'. You made me research and I realise it must be the (COVID certainly) wine talking:

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09571264.2010.495854

    Cheers!🍷

    • Haha 1
    18 minutes ago, binman said:

    This is a narrative everyone should push back on.

    ATAGI was created by the federal government to provide health advice to government.

    Of course their advice is purely from a health perspective. That is their area of expertise and their terms of refence set by the government.  

    The government choose to accept the ATAGI advice. Or not.

    In making that decision they should consider a range of factors (and get expert advice as required) - human behavior, economic implications, impact on their plan for the vaccine roll, sociological behavior, messaging etc etc 

    It is not ATAGI who have installed completely unnecessary fear in the community by demonising AstraZeneca.

    The members of ATAGI must be livid that they have been thrown under the bus. 

    The real question who is pushing this false narrative and who benefits from the scapegoating of ATAGI?

     

    Good points BM

    i have surmised since the beginning that the PM jumped to our early to have a trillion dollar debt approved to address Covid.

    The same PM and his party demonised an opposition that proposed 300 m debt when interest rates were low.

    I don't believe he thought the health issue would drag out this little long, part of the shambles of his own governments making. Deaths in federally regulated nursing homes, backing the UQvaccine above others, distributing through GP's rather than through state public health services.

    Perhaps the huge debt was intended to fund election winning targeted Rorts, sports and car parks were the model. The competence of this government has been on display in every portfolio, but there has been a reliance on the last "miracle" reoccurring as voters are blinded by lies, misinformation and denigration of the opposition. By remaining out of the spotlight and being cooperative and not controversial Labor has chosen to allow Coalition to lose rather than try to win.

    If vaccinations continue to be bungled and people see their state systems working, Qland highlighting the effectiveness of community systems, Vic having best results in regional ares where public systems work have actives better results than distributing through GP's.

    its difficult and complex, situations which the coalition has shown previously they have difficulty with.

    • Like 1

    Here am I thinking AFL is the country's national sport.

    Apparently not: 

    https://www.crikey.com.au/2021/07/23/trashing-astrazeneca-national-sport-not-national-saviour/?utm_campaign=SundayRead&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

    [PS: I was accused somewhere earlier in this thread of spreading conservative propaganda by linking to a story in the Australian Financial Review. Hopefully linking to a story in Crikey redresses that alleged (and denied) bias.] 

    • Like 2
     
    1 hour ago, binman said:

    It is not ATAGI who have installed completely unnecessary fear in the community by demonising AstraZeneca.

    The members of ATAGI must be livid that they have been thrown under the bus. 

    The real question who is pushing this false narrative and who benefits from the scapegoating of ATAGI?

    I just can't walk past that comment.  No it isn't ATAGI, altho they have had a part.  The fear and demonising has many culprits:  AZ was first demonised in Europe in January 2021 and beyond:

    "In January 2021, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) approved the use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine for all age groups, but a number of EU countries initially refused to recommend its use for people over 65.

    France and Germany eventually revised their stance and approved the vaccine for 65-74 year olds at the beginning of March.

    They were again among 13 European countries who paused the AstraZeneca rollout again later in March, following reports that a small number of people developed blood clots after receiving the jab.

    On 7 April, the EMA said there was a "possible link" between the vaccine and the clots, although it is still recommended the jab for all age groups.

    Several EU countries, including France, Germany and the Netherlands now say only people over 55 or 60 should get the jab, while others like Denmark have suspended its use altogether.

    The headlines surrounding AstraZeneca led to a drop in confidence in the jab. In March, the polling company YouGov suggested that only a third of Germans and 23% of French respondents considered it safe".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-52380823

    The AZ 'risks' and lack of confidence in Europe was picked up by the Australian media and many so called 'expert' medically related people here, so AZ was demonised here long before the vaccine even arrived in Australia.

    All Australian governments and ATAGI were in sync until June, even tho ATAGi had back tracked on its age group advice several times.  It was only when the danger Delta posed to under 50's and the risk profile changed, did state/federal/ATAGI positions diverge. 

    ATAGI stuck to its guns.  The federal government did exactly what you said they should do and sought alternative advice.  Based on that they gave a different recommendation than ATAGI to younger age groups:  get AZ as their was 6-9 months of UK evidence of AZ risks vs covid risk on younger age groups available. 

    That was a decision by The National Cabinet (not only the PM, not only his Ministers) to giving alternative to ATAGI advice.  National Cabinet is made up PM and Premiers etal.  Of course that didn't stop the Qld CHO breaking ranks and reverting to the ATAGI position which only confused everyone further.  

    To summarise some culprits for fear and demonising AZ:

    • EMA (EU's equivalent to ATAGI)
    • Germany, France, Netherlands etc
    • Media in Europe and Australia
    • Many medicos who cared to talk to the media
    • ATAGI
    • National Cabinet
    • State CHO's

    Edited by Lucifer's Hero

    • Like 1

    Sorry Lh, I'm not sure what your point is.

    Are you arguing ATAGI did install completely unnecessary fear in the community by demonising AstraZeneca?

    If so, let's agree to disagree and move on.


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