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1 hour ago, Demon17 said:

Great post Chook.

The Saints are fair dinkum pretenders regarding pressure when compared to MFC, tiges, Port Adelaide and Dogs.

The stats for last night are deplorable saints-wise as if the white flag was raised at 1/4 time. Dusty with 10 disposlas in final 1/4 supports this view.

 

5 tackles only from the Saints forwards. You will never beat Richmond without extreme forward pressure and tackling for 4 quarters

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The Saints may be pretenders.....but it is what Richmond did to them is the important take away. 

Good teams demolish those lesser teams.  No just falling over the line, they put them away conclusively.  That is the standard to which we have to aspire. 

Although Hawthorn have played Richmond, they were spanked by 5 goals....we should be doing the same to them if we are serious about season 2021.

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14 minutes ago, george_on_the_outer said:

The Saints may be pretenders.....but it is what Richmond did to them is the important take away. 

Good teams demolish those lesser teams.  No just falling over the line, they put them away conclusively.  That is the standard to which we have to aspire. 

Although Hawthorn have played Richmond, they were spanked by 5 goals....we should be doing the same to them if we are serious about season 2021.

Spot on George, all falling in against the Hawks proves is we are a mid ladder team.

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27 minutes ago, old dee said:

Spot on George, all falling in against the Hawks proves is we are a mid ladder team.

Come on OD it proves nothing of the sort.

Edited by ManDee
Although you may be right, it is not proof
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Two points on beating Tigers:

1) From what I've read Sydney used the 'divide and conquer' strategy - they spread their defenders so that they could not get across to help each other out and intercept. 

We can copy that strategy

2) Last night Tigers appeared to not defend the mark or the free.  I read somewhere their plan is to defend the 30m arc around the opp which forces a 'long bomb' kick over the arc allowing their defenders to intercept or their small players to activate their ground ball tactics. 

We need a plan to neutralise this tactic as defending the 'long bomb' has not been a strength of ours.  Nonetheless, I think we are part of the way to doing so:   Last week Jackson and McDonald would take the front position when fwd of center if they couldn't mark (or sometimes even when they could) and made two handed taps straight down into the waiting hands of a demon player, who was facing our goals.  The two-handed tap down prevented interference from behind or the side and the ball falling to some random spot.  I recall one time when McDonald was only a step in front of his opp and took a small leap and tapped down - didn't even try to mark.  These looked like set plays and iirc worked every time in that we scored or the ball was delivered to a well placed fwd.

For example we could have an arc about 15m behind their 30m arc and our fwds spread their defence across our fwd50.  A combination which makes it very difficult for their players to get back or across.

We will not play anything like the Saints who put up zero resistance.  We have a steely resolve and am expecting a very different game when we play the tigers and hopefully a different result.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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41 minutes ago, george_on_the_outer said:

The Saints may be pretenders.....but it is what Richmond did to them is the important take away. 

Good teams demolish those lesser teams.  No just falling over the line, they put them away conclusively.  That is the standard to which we have to aspire. 

Although Hawthorn have played Richmond, they were spanked by 5 goals....we should be doing the same to them if we are serious about season 2021.

Match against the Hawks is a good test with May and Fritsch out.  May is well known for his one-one-one ability to defend and outmark but his kicking is also critical for us when we have the ball - he regularly takes our kick ins and often gets us going with his long precise kicking.  Hibberd can do this but won't have the height needed when coming up against teams with multiple key talls.

Similarly fritsch is well known for his marking ability but his pressure and tackling has gone up a few levels this year.  I don't think any of our options do both.

Good teams can adjust to this and find a way for their system to get the job done and I am confident we will - but until we see it, it's an unknown.

 

Re your comments about what RIchmond did - I think we're not far off doing that in all in wins.  We've had so mnay more shots on goal than the opposition - if we had kicked straight everyone would say we look unstoppable atm.

 

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13 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Come on OD it proves nothing of the sort.

So far we have beaten 9th, 10th, 11th and 15th on the ladder. Hardly a GF threatening team in that lot. I will believe we have improved substantially when we beat Richmond in 2 weeks time. 

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14 hours ago, Deestroy All said:

Over on big footy the Saints board is banning and deleting angry, critical posts lol. 
 

That’ll fix everything. 

I've never heard of an angry or critical Saints fan

Is that a thing ???

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1 hour ago, george_on_the_outer said:

The Saints may be pretenders.....but it is what Richmond did to them is the important take away. 

Good teams demolish those lesser teams.  No just falling over the line, they put them away conclusively.  That is the standard to which we have to aspire. 

Although Hawthorn have played Richmond, they were spanked by 5 goals....we should be doing the same to them if we are serious about season 2021.

I agree that, that is nice when it happens, but there is a myriad of reasons/factors the a team (or individuals within a team) put on a display last night - it's not just about Richmond's performing and St Kilda being ground into submission.

Something else is clearly going on when St Kilda can come back from 5/6 goals down vs WCE to then loosing by 15 goals the following week... 

Richmond on paper are not a 20 goal better team than WCE.

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1 hour ago, old dee said:

So far we have beaten 9th, 10th, 11th and 15th on the ladder. Hardly a GF threatening team in that lot. I will believe we have improved substantially when we beat Richmond in 2 weeks time. 

Still doesn't prove your point. We have beaten every side we have played. Last week people were saying that if we beat Geelong then.... So if we beat Hawthorn what does that prove? 5 nil Then it will be, only beaten sides below us which is true but that is a good way to win a flag from 4 zip.

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31 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Still doesn't prove your point. We have beaten every side we have played. Last week people were saying that if we beat Geelong then.... So if we beat Hawthorn what does that prove? 5 nil Then it will be, only beaten sides below us which is true but that is a good way to win a flag from 4 zip.

So beating those four proves we are premiership material does it? 

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1 hour ago, ManDee said:

Still doesn't prove your point. We have beaten every side we have played. Last week people were saying that if we beat Geelong then.... So if we beat Hawthorn what does that prove? 5 nil Then it will be, only beaten sides below us which is true but that is a good way to win a flag from 4 zip.

I will be happy to win by 2-3 goals on Sunday, without a Fullback or Fullforward. 
take those 2 key positions out of a side, and the whole structure needs rejigging 

Clarkson is no fool. He will have tactics in place. Whether his players are good enough to challenge is another matter

Edited by Sir Why You Little
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2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Two points on beating Tigers:

1) From what I've read Sydney used the 'divide and conquer' strategy - they spread their defenders so that they could not get across to help each other out and intercept. 

We can copy that strategy

2) Last night Tigers appeared to not defend the mark or the free.  I read somewhere their plan is to defend the 30m arc around the opp which forces a 'long bomb' kick over the arc allowing their defenders to intercept or their small players to activate their ground ball tactics. 

We need a plan to neutralise this tactic as defending the 'long bomb' has not been a strength of ours.  Nonetheless, I think we are part of the way to doing so:   Last week Jackson and McDonald would take the front position when fwd of center if they couldn't mark (or sometimes even when they could) and made two handed taps straight down into the waiting hands of a demon player, who was facing our goals.  The two-handed tap down prevented interference from behind or the side and the ball falling to some random spot.  I recall one time when McDonald was only a step in front of his opp and took a small leap and tapped down - didn't even try to mark.  These looked like set plays and iirc worked every time in that we scored or the ball was delivered to a well placed fwd.

For example we could have an arc about 15m behind their 30m arc and our fwds spread their defence across our fwd50.  A combination which makes it very difficult for their players to get back or across.

We will not play anything like the Saints who put up zero resistance.  We have a steely resolve and am expecting a very different game when we play the tigers and hopefully a different result.

When you look at who we have played LH I am not sure the steal is as strong as you think. Teams in 9th, 10th, 11th and 15th are not exactly wonderful. 

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6 minutes ago, old dee said:

When you look at who we have played LH I am not sure the steal is as strong as you think. Teams in 9th, 10th, 11th and 15th are not exactly wonderful. 

Those 4 sides are there, BECAUSE WE PUT THEM THERE....

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1 minute ago, old dee said:

When you look at who we have played LH I am not sure the steal is as strong as you think. Teams in 9th, 10th, 11th and 15th are not exactly wonderful. 

We've beaten all the teams put in front us. Comfortably. Can't do any more than that.

I've no interest in talking us up but i don't want to talk us down either. Do you see any positive signs OD? Any changes in us compared to prior years? Anything that would suggest this group is different?

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16 minutes ago, old dee said:

When you look at who we have played LH I am not sure the steal is as strong as you think. Teams in 9th, 10th, 11th and 15th are not exactly wonderful. 

Two of those teams are out of the 8 only on %.

If we lost those 4 games those teams would be 7th, 8th, 9th and 11th.  They are where they are on the ladder because we beat them and in doing so we hurt their %.

It is worth noting that two of the teams we have beaten played in 2020 finals and one in the GF.

I guess if we lose on Sunday and go 5-0 we can add 17th to that list and you will say we still haven't beaten any decent teams!

I fully understand your reticence but maybe its time to give credit to where credit is due.

 

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Two of those teams are out of the 8 only on %.

If we lost those 4 games those teams would be 7th, 8th, 9th and 11th.  They are where they are on the ladder because we beat them and in doing so we hurt their %.

It is worth noting that two of the teams we have beaten played in 2020 finals and one in the GF.

I guess if we lose on Sunday and go 5-0 we can add 17th to that list and you will say we still haven't beaten any decent teams!

I fully understand your reticence but it may be its time to give credit to where credit is due.

 

We are won 4 out of 4 you cannot do better than that. I just find it strange that people are making comments about grand finals and talking as though we have won 14 of 17 games and in the top four in August. Stay calm everyone we are a long way from being Grand Finalists.

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11 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Those 4 sides are there, BECAUSE WE PUT THEM THERE....

Rubbish they are they because other teams beat them as well as us. 

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8 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Two of those teams are out of the 8 only on %.

If we lost those 4 games those teams would be 7th, 8th, 9th and 11th.  They are where they are on the ladder because we beat them and in doing so we hurt their %.

It is worth noting that two of the teams we have beaten played in 2020 finals and one in the GF.

I guess if we lose on Sunday and go 5-0 we can add 17th to that list and you will say we still haven't beaten any decent teams!

I fully understand your reticence but it may be its time to give credit to where credit is due.

 

By the end of the season we will only have beaten teams below us.

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40 minutes ago, old dee said:

We are won 4 out of 4 you cannot do better than that. I just find it strange that people are making comments about grand finals and talking as though we have won 14 of 17 games and in the top four in August. Stay calm everyone we are a long way from being Grand Finalists.

who is making comments about grand finals? Maybe one or two at most. The majority here are enjoying our great start to the season. Easily Beating Last years grand finalist, a team who won a final and two other finals aspirants. 

We are looking like likely finalists this year and I reckon people can enjoy that. And losing to the best team in the past 5 years won’t change that

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1 minute ago, DubDee said:

who is making comments about grand finals? Maybe one or two at most. The majority here are enjoying our great start to the season. Easily Beating Last years grand finalist, a team who won a final and two other finals aspirants. 

We are looking like likely finalists this year and I reckon people can enjoy that. And losing to the best team in the past 5 years won’t change that

I am enjoying it DD, I just get the feeling a lot of people are getting a bit ahead of themselves it is way too early to be expecting to be finalists after 4 games. 

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1 minute ago, DubDee said:

who is making comments about grand finals? Maybe one or two at most. The majority here are enjoying our great start to the season. Easily Beating Last years grand finalist, a team who won a final and two other finals aspirants. 

We are looking like likely finalists this year and I reckon people can enjoy that. And losing to the best team in the past 5 years won’t change that

Yesterday, I jokingly said that if we make the GF we should wrap od in bubble wrap so he can go to the game and not worry about contracting covid which I know for him would be extremely dangerous.  I didn't mean it to say I thought we would make the finals.

Right now I'm just going to enjoy the ride. 

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3 minutes ago, old dee said:

I am enjoying it DD, I just get the feeling a lot of people are getting a bit ahead of themselves it is way too early to be expecting to be finalists after 4 games. 

We are 4 - 0 and haven’t played any of the 6 worst teams from last year yet. I reckon there is nothing at all wrong with supporters thinking finals are likely. 

glad you are enjoying it btw!

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1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Yesterday, I jokingly said that if we make the GF we should wrap od in bubble wrap so he can go to the game and not worry about contracting covid which I know for him would be extremely dangerous.  I didn't mean it to say I thought we would make the finals.

Right now I'm just going to enjoy the ride. 

Me too LH, if we finish inside the eight in a high position I will be very happy having seen a very successful season. I will then be looking forward to similar in 2022. You cannot ask for much more from your team. 

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In list management news, North Melbourne is rumoured to be looking to use its Mid Season Draft selection on one of Nat Fyfe's lesser known twin brothers.

Should North lose at Kardinia Park on Sunday as the vast majority of pundits are tipping, expect to hear a lot of media talk next week about Owen Fyfe and Norton Fyfe.

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